The idea isnt just the abilitied, its also the alignment and rp potential. Blackguard added a lot to paladins, and rsngers were already straightjacketed into a very narrow character role.
You're spot on, @DreadKhan. An evil ranger would add some much needed spice to the "narrow character role". However, borrowing abilities from existing kits just seems a bit boring. New abilities/spells would make a kit much more exciting to play. When I got BGEE, the first thing I did was test the new kits that had new abilities (e.g., sun soul monk, dwarven defender and dragon disciple). At the end of the day I'll be happy with any kind of evil ranger kit. I'm just trying to suggest that unique abilities to the kit would be much more enjoyable to play with than recycled abilities from other kits.
You're spot on, @DreadKhan. An evil ranger would add some much needed spice to the "narrow character role". However, borrowing abilities from existing kits just seems a bit boring. New abilities/spells would make a kit much more exciting to play. When I got BGEE, the first thing I did was test the new kits that had new abilities (e.g., sun soul monk, dwarven defender and dragon disciple). At the end of the day I'll be happy with any kind of evil ranger kit. I'm just trying to suggest that unique abilities to the kit would be much more enjoyable to play with than recycled abilities from other kits.
How about an obscuring mist effect? A non-magical concoction that has a visual effect like Stinking Cloud, but has very different effect. Inside the mist the Dark Hunter gains a +20 to Stealth, which could lead to a +4 to hit from behind, and double damage. This would very much limit the mimicking of the Stalker kit. The mist could also grant them a +2 bonus to AC and SAVES.
Also, instead of setting snares they could use a Trap Lure. It would be placed like a trap, and activated when in enemy is within range. Basically, the enemy moves to it, then the trap is sprung, with increasing strength. It could be a disease that causes a rigid thinking effect, poison, etc.. When used in conjunction with the mist, the Dark Hunter could kill with the best of them.
If they don't have divine spells, why would the class became fallen if rep reach 12 or above?
Classes that got fallen achievment are reasoned for the sudden stop of patronage of the respective deity (or phanteon) in reason of that character walk out of his/her divinity beliefs.
From the pro/con of this class, it doesn't sound as an patronaged class (no divine spells or special abilities related to an divinity), it's a pretty mundane and pratical class to me (pretty much pratical as bishop in NWN2).
From the pro/con of this class, it doesn't sound as an patronaged class (no divine spells or special abilities related to an divinity), it's a pretty mundane and pratical class to me (pretty much pratical as bishop in NWN2).
I agree that a Ranger (and it's kits) are very practical, but I think the whole idea behind this thread is to share some ideas for a new kit 'with a twist'. The introduction of the Blackguard kit gave Paladins a fresh kick start and have allowed players to play a Paladin in a whole new way.
I believe that the suggestions on this thread (including my own) are based on "if Paladins get an evil kit, why can't Rangers?" I've been playing BG and BG2 pretty much since they came out so to see new classes/kits being implemented is pretty exciting especially if it gives a little more freedom to a class that has its abilities restricted to a certain alignment (fallen ranger = no hide in shadows/divine spell casting).
It is possible to maybe mod something like a Quest for a Fallen Ranger to get new abilities?
I was wondering maybe the mod could include a quest where a (Fallen) Ranger could be lured into evil acts like killing humanoids enough to lose his "humanity" (and his Class), then at the end of the quest he would get the "Ravager kit"
Or, in plain kit-wise:
= = = RAVAGER = = =
Rangers can become quite deadly at some point of your his career, but patrolling the wilderness can sometimes give you twisted enlightment of the hunt. A Ravager is a former ranger who abandoned his humanity in pursue of the Wild Hunt, blessed by Malar.
Advantages: - DODGE: +1 Armor Class
- PAWS AND CLAWS: Once per day, the Ravager can shapeshift his legs and arms with bestial power. For a short duration, he gains the Barbarian's move speed and can only make dual-wield unarmed attacks that deals normal fist damage +1d8 slashing damage (treated as non-magical weapon). At level 10, these attacks also rend the target for 1 damage each round for 6 rounds due to bleeding (6 total extra damage). Paws and Claws can be activated while shapeshifted (adding its damage to the 1d8 paw attacks). The Ravager gains another use of this ability at level 8, and a third use at level 16.
- SHAPESHIFT: At level 8, 13 and 19, the Ravager gains a daily use to shapeshift Werewolf. While in this form, he received reduced damage (as per Armor of Faith spell of a Cleric of the Ravager's level) and can only perform paw attacks: +2 to hit, 1d6 slashing damage.
Disadvantages: - Cannot wear any armor - Cannot cast Spells - Must be of any Evil alignment - Must choose humanoid as racial enemy
@Itomon Are you tring make monk/shapeshifter hybrid? :-)
What about someting like:
= = = Revenger = = =
Nature is wild and untameable. Some individuals carry her rage and turns it against all who would want to harm her. Woe to those who are in their way, because in their veins flows the power of nature.
Advantages: - Immune to Poison - Damage: +1 every five levels, starting on level one. - Can achieve Mastery with mele weapons.
Disadvantages: - Must be Evil alignment - Cannot charm animal
I've always thought "Fallen Paladin" / "Fallen Rangers" should have had some kind of benefit / trade-off as opposed to just a nerfed version of the original class. That would be an awesome mod for Rping if someone could create it.
I've always thought "Fallen Paladin" / "Fallen Rangers" should have had some kind of benefit / trade-off as opposed to just a nerfed version of the original class. That would be an awesome mod for Rping if someone could create it.
Fallen Paladin = Bonus +2 to intelligence and wisdom for rejection lawfull stupid alignment
Well, why not jump on the bandwagon of tossing ideas into the ring? Here are some ideas:
The Evil
Pardic Ranger (Blackblood Hunter)
Rangers associated with Malar, the blackblooded pard are some of the fiercest hunters in the Realms. Like many Malarites, their tradition of providing meat for communities helps garner more acceptance than similarly aligned organizations. Blackbloods favour subtlety over straightforward strategies, rarely engaging in a pitched battle when other options exist.
Disadvantages -Cannot gain specialization in weapons other than clubs, quarterstaffs, spears, short swords, daggers, slings, darts, and shortbows -cannot use armour heavier than studded leather -cannot cast spells or charm animal -no bonus to two weapon fighting -uses a d8 for hit points Must have an evil alignment
Advantages -gain backstab x2 -+1 to hit and damage -gains Set Traps as a thief, improves as Move Silently -at 3rd level, gains a Frenzy ability, which lasts for 1 turn. During Frenzy, the Blackblood gains +2 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, as well as immunity to charm, domination, paralysis, poison and level drain. Gains 1 additional use per 5 class levels -gains poison use at 4th level, and a 2nd use at 14th level
The idea here is to open up an alternative lifestyle for rangers without making the finished kit significantly better. New abilities are interesting, but most new abilities end up being new in name, but are still comparable. You would play the Blackblood differently than a traditional ranger, notably no early DWing, but the option of an opening BS to soften an enemy up. Setting traps would be the biggest boost at high levels, since poison weapon caps st 2 per day. It is however always worse at a pitched fight than a standard warrior, but could probably be a match with preparation.
ALTERNATIVE IDEA (more Neutral)
Oakfather Sentinel
Sentinels of Silvanus are rangers more devoted to protecting and serving nature, in contrast with the traditional role of rangers as defenders of the civilized races in the wilds of Faerun. While rarely malicious towards civilization, Sentinels can be as hostile as the druids they accompany when confronted with callous abuse. These rangers learn less about weapon use than other rangers, but supplement their combat skills with limited shapeshifting.
Disadvantages -cannot wear armour heavier than leather -losses bonus to two weapon fighting -cannot specialize in weapons (but can specialize in styles)
Advantages -reputation does not affect status, alignment must be Neutral (or a neutral variant) -once per day, gains Beast Claws. This grants a natural weapon, dealing 2d4 damage per hit, and lasts for 1 turn. He gains 1 additional use per 3 levels, and the Sentinel gains +1 damage every other level until level 20. (This ability should become increasingly magical as a monks fist) this damage is piercing and slashing. -at 3rd level, may use a paralysis poison once per day. Targets that are hit are slowed for 1 round per level on a failed save, and slowed for 1 round on a success. At 10th level, the target also takes 1 damage per round for every round spent slowed. Gains one use per 6 levels (maximum 4 uses)
This would play different certainly, and is more straight forward. He wouldnt attack as often as a monk, but with slightly better average damage. Less squishy too. He could use weapons, but he isnt as good as a standard warrior. His poison would be a useful alternative to sheer damaging, but might be overpowered. Still, stun is more severe than slow. The ability would become weak at high levels, but his unarmed attacks would be significant by then, but i'd bet a high level warrior could do better with weapons.
In general, evil deities care less about behaviours specifically, and thus they generally wont fall. However, an egregious misstep (ie a truly heroic act for heroic reasons) will result in falling. Its a rarely used trope, being tempted to do good and falling in grace.
In 3.5 alternate rules, the Paladins of Tyranny and Ruin respectively have their own fairly strict Code of Conduct. Paladins of Ruin are VERY prone to dying or falling to avoid being stupid evil, while the Lawful Evil Paladin of Tyranny was actually almost playable. Being an adherent of chaos can be hard to play!
In general, evil deities care less about behaviours specifically, and thus they generally wont fall. However, an egregious misstep (ie a truly heroic act for heroic reasons) will result in falling. Its a rarely used trope, being tempted to do good and falling in grace.
In 3.5 alternate rules, the Paladins of Tyranny and Ruin respectively have their own fairly strict Code of Conduct. Paladins of Ruin are VERY prone to dying or falling to avoid being stupid evil, while the Lawful Evil Paladin of Tyranny was actually almost playable. Being an adherent of chaos can be hard to play!
Free will and best intentions complicate this particular set of rules. If your paladin character fails a save vs. rigid thinking and then proceeds to gut the barkeep from knave to chops, his god will abandon him. Just like that. All you tried to do was defend yourself from an evil spell caster, at that moment in time you were not strong enough, and suddenly you are forever forsaken by your god until the end of time.
Conversly, Dorn could give 50,000 gold to the temple of the morning lord, helping countless people that worship that god, and Dorns god would just shrug its shoulders and keep supplying you with powers.
Well, in 3.x I know for certain you are allowed to use the Atonement spell to regain divine mandate. But yeah, you get to Fall right in the middle of the fight. :h@ Imho, its a really stupid choice, unless the Paladin was being reckless. A Good deity shouldnt punish you because you failed a save.
Dorn's patron probably would revoke his powers if he ever made a significant dent in his good vs evil ledger. But at least this wouldnt be an isolated goofup resulting in a divine screw over!
Well, in 3.x I know for certain you are allowed to use the Atonement spell to regain divine mandate. But yeah, you get to Fall right in the middle of the fight. :h@ Imho, its a really stupid choice, unless the Paladin was being reckless. A Good deity shouldnt punish you because you failed a save.
Dorn's patron probably would revoke his powers if he ever made a significant dent in his good vs evil ledger. But at least this wouldnt be an isolated goofup resulting in a divine screw over!
In general, evil deities care less about behaviours specifically, and thus they generally wont fall. However, an egregious misstep (ie a truly heroic act for heroic reasons) will result in falling. Its a rarely used trope, being tempted to do good and falling in grace.
In 3.5 alternate rules, the Paladins of Tyranny and Ruin respectively have their own fairly strict Code of Conduct. Paladins of Ruin are VERY prone to dying or falling to avoid being stupid evil, while the Lawful Evil Paladin of Tyranny was actually almost playable. Being an adherent of chaos can be hard to play!
Paladins of Ruin pretty much are required at all times and in all places to reject and violently challenge any suthority figure that you havent already been recently defeated by. Also, you can only associate with CE folks, which will definately shorten your lifespan. So yeah, challenging EVERYONE constantly seems productive. Totally not going to result in death at level one.
Tyranny lets you function either in a solid organization, or to run it.
Paladins of Ruin pretty much are required at all times and in all places to reject and violently challenge any suthority figure that you havent already been recently defeated by. Also, you can only associate with CE folks, which will definately shorten your lifespan. So yeah, challenging EVERYONE constantly seems productive. Totally not going to result in death at level one.
Tyranny lets you function either in a solid organization, or to run it.
I highly doubt that an PnP Class would behave that way, but it's just my guess.
Anyway, i made an research on internet, and i found nowhere this paladin of Ruin. The Defenders of the faith, the official paladin handbook for 3.5e don't have that class. So if you have any link to a sample of the article with this paladin i would like to know more about him (or her).
In 3.5 alternate rules, the Paladins of Tyranny and Ruin respectively have their own fairly strict Code of Conduct. Paladins of Ruin are VERY prone to dying or falling to avoid being stupid evil, while the Lawful Evil Paladin of Tyranny was actually almost playable. Being an adherent of chaos can be hard to play!
Its in Unearthed Arcana. As I said, its alternate rules, but technically so is everything not in the core books. Its a truly amazing book, filled with interesting stuff. It is a WotC product though, and balance isnt as bad as most expansion books where, such as Defenders of the Faith. Some pretty overpowered stuff actually.
The paladin of ruin is in fact the paladin of slaughter there.
Code of Conduct: A paladin of slaughter must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of slaughter’s code requires that she disrespect all authority fi gures who have not proven their physical superiority to her, refuse help to those in need, and sow destruction and death at all opportunities.
But from what i read of the description, much there can be interpreted in many ways. Joker (from batman: dark knight movie) is an perfect example of this.
Good act requires intent, so make good to disguise an greater future evil is pretty acceptable. To defy autorithy figures, can display an person that values strengh, and physical superiority there i believe is related to anyone that outmatch or show pleny capacity to outmatch the paladin of slaughter.
I didnt dig out my copy, and only ever used the Paladin of Tyranny. Made some pretty predictably ridiculous CHA based monstosities. Nothing like a making the dump stat brokenly good! Sometimes went Blackguard though, which ended up being worse for melee but a better sorcerer.
My big problem with taking a loose interpretation is the word 'always'. This kinda takes out lots of subtlety options, since failure to always actively defy authority. By physical superiority, the class restricts interpretations further since its a melee class. They are warriors, but I think you can allow a successful intimidate check to meet your code. Of course, Any DM can take stuff as they wish, but i dont completely agree your interpretation is entirely true to the text.
but more importantly, how are those nongood rangers? On topic!
So what are the actual chances of something like this being added? Would Beamdog/Overhaul look at these forums and consider any of these ideas? Or would it be more likely for a modder to come along and create it themselves?
Comments
At the end of the day I'll be happy with any kind of evil ranger kit. I'm just trying to suggest that unique abilities to the kit would be much more enjoyable to play with than recycled abilities from other kits.
Also, instead of setting snares they could use a Trap Lure. It would be placed like a trap, and activated when in enemy is within range. Basically, the enemy moves to it, then the trap is sprung, with increasing strength. It could be a disease that causes a rigid thinking effect, poison, etc.. When used in conjunction with the mist, the Dark Hunter could kill with the best of them.
Classes that got fallen achievment are reasoned for the sudden stop of patronage of the respective deity (or phanteon) in reason of that character walk out of his/her divinity beliefs.
From the pro/con of this class, it doesn't sound as an patronaged class (no divine spells or special abilities related to an divinity), it's a pretty mundane and pratical class to me (pretty much pratical as bishop in NWN2).
I believe that the suggestions on this thread (including my own) are based on "if Paladins get an evil kit, why can't Rangers?" I've been playing BG and BG2 pretty much since they came out so to see new classes/kits being implemented is pretty exciting especially if it gives a little more freedom to a class that has its abilities restricted to a certain alignment (fallen ranger = no hide in shadows/divine spell casting).
I was wondering maybe the mod could include a quest where a (Fallen) Ranger could be lured into evil acts like killing humanoids enough to lose his "humanity" (and his Class), then at the end of the quest he would get the "Ravager kit"
Or, in plain kit-wise:
= = = RAVAGER = = =
Rangers can become quite deadly at some point of your his career, but patrolling the wilderness can sometimes give you twisted enlightment of the hunt. A Ravager is a former ranger who abandoned his humanity in pursue of the Wild Hunt, blessed by Malar.
Advantages:
- DODGE: +1 Armor Class
- PAWS AND CLAWS:
Once per day, the Ravager can shapeshift his legs and arms with bestial power. For a short duration, he gains the Barbarian's move speed and can only make dual-wield unarmed attacks that deals normal fist damage +1d8 slashing damage (treated as non-magical weapon).
At level 10, these attacks also rend the target for 1 damage each round for 6 rounds due to bleeding (6 total extra damage). Paws and Claws can be activated while shapeshifted (adding its damage to the 1d8 paw attacks).
The Ravager gains another use of this ability at level 8, and a third use at level 16.
- SHAPESHIFT: At level 8, 13 and 19, the Ravager gains a daily use to shapeshift Werewolf. While in this form, he received reduced damage (as per Armor of Faith spell of a Cleric of the Ravager's level) and can only perform paw attacks: +2 to hit, 1d6 slashing damage.
Disadvantages:
- Cannot wear any armor
- Cannot cast Spells
- Must be of any Evil alignment
- Must choose humanoid as racial enemy
Are you tring make monk/shapeshifter hybrid? :-)
What about someting like:
= = = Revenger = = =
Nature is wild and untameable. Some individuals carry her rage and turns it against all who would want to harm her.
Woe to those who are in their way, because in their veins flows the power of nature.
Advantages:
- Immune to Poison
- Damage: +1 every five levels, starting on level one.
- Can achieve Mastery with mele weapons.
Disadvantages:
- Must be Evil alignment
- Cannot charm animal
I've always thought "Fallen Paladin" / "Fallen Rangers" should have had some kind of benefit / trade-off as opposed to just a nerfed version of the original class. That would be an awesome mod for Rping if someone could create it.
The Evil
Pardic Ranger (Blackblood Hunter)
Rangers associated with Malar, the blackblooded pard are some of the fiercest hunters in the Realms. Like many Malarites, their tradition of providing meat for communities helps garner more acceptance than similarly aligned organizations. Blackbloods favour subtlety over straightforward strategies, rarely engaging in a pitched battle when other options exist.
Disadvantages
-Cannot gain specialization in weapons other than clubs, quarterstaffs, spears, short swords, daggers, slings, darts, and shortbows
-cannot use armour heavier than studded leather
-cannot cast spells or charm animal
-no bonus to two weapon fighting
-uses a d8 for hit points
Must have an evil alignment
Advantages
-gain backstab x2
-+1 to hit and damage
-gains Set Traps as a thief, improves as Move Silently
-at 3rd level, gains a Frenzy ability, which lasts for 1 turn. During Frenzy, the Blackblood gains +2 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, as well as immunity to charm, domination, paralysis, poison and level drain. Gains 1 additional use per 5 class levels
-gains poison use at 4th level, and a 2nd use at 14th level
The idea here is to open up an alternative lifestyle for rangers without making the finished kit significantly better. New abilities are interesting, but most new abilities end up being new in name, but are still comparable. You would play the Blackblood differently than a traditional ranger, notably no early DWing, but the option of an opening BS to soften an enemy up. Setting traps would be the biggest boost at high levels, since poison weapon caps st 2 per day. It is however always worse at a pitched fight than a standard warrior, but could probably be a match with preparation.
ALTERNATIVE IDEA (more Neutral)
Oakfather Sentinel
Sentinels of Silvanus are rangers more devoted to protecting and serving nature, in contrast with the traditional role of rangers as defenders of the civilized races in the wilds of Faerun. While rarely malicious towards civilization, Sentinels can be as hostile as the druids they accompany when confronted with callous abuse. These rangers learn less about weapon use than other rangers, but supplement their combat skills with limited shapeshifting.
Disadvantages
-cannot wear armour heavier than leather
-losses bonus to two weapon fighting
-cannot specialize in weapons (but can specialize in styles)
Advantages
-reputation does not affect status, alignment must be Neutral (or a neutral variant)
-once per day, gains Beast Claws. This grants a natural weapon, dealing 2d4 damage per hit, and lasts for 1 turn. He gains 1 additional use per 3 levels, and the Sentinel gains +1 damage every other level until level 20. (This ability should become increasingly magical as a monks fist) this damage is piercing and slashing.
-at 3rd level, may use a paralysis poison once per day. Targets that are hit are slowed for 1 round per level on a failed save, and slowed for 1 round on a success. At 10th level, the target also takes 1 damage per round for every round spent slowed. Gains one use per 6 levels (maximum 4 uses)
This would play different certainly, and is more straight forward. He wouldnt attack as often as a monk, but with slightly better average damage. Less squishy too. He could use weapons, but he isnt as good as a standard warrior. His poison would be a useful alternative to sheer damaging, but might be overpowered. Still, stun is more severe than slow. The ability would become weak at high levels, but his unarmed attacks would be significant by then, but i'd bet a high level warrior could do better with weapons.
Paladin with low reputation = Fallen Paladin
Blackguard with hight reputation = Sublime Blackguard ?
In 3.5 alternate rules, the Paladins of Tyranny and Ruin respectively have their own fairly strict Code of Conduct. Paladins of Ruin are VERY prone to dying or falling to avoid being stupid evil, while the Lawful Evil Paladin of Tyranny was actually almost playable. Being an adherent of chaos can be hard to play!
Conversly, Dorn could give 50,000 gold to the temple of the morning lord, helping countless people that worship that god, and Dorns god would just shrug its shoulders and keep supplying you with powers.
It's flawed.
Dorn's patron probably would revoke his powers if he ever made a significant dent in his good vs evil ledger. But at least this wouldnt be an isolated goofup resulting in a divine screw over!
R' you serious?
photos upload
Tyranny lets you function either in a solid organization, or to run it.
Anyway, i made an research on internet, and i found nowhere this paladin of Ruin. The Defenders of the faith, the official paladin handbook for 3.5e don't have that class. So if you have any link to a sample of the article with this paladin i would like to know more about him (or her).
The paladin of ruin is in fact the paladin of slaughter there.
Code of Conduct: A paladin of slaughter must be of chaotic
evil alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly
commits a good act. Additionally, a paladin of slaughter’s code
requires that she disrespect all authority fi gures who have not
proven their physical superiority to her, refuse help to those in
need, and sow destruction and death at all opportunities.
But from what i read of the description, much there can be interpreted in many ways. Joker (from batman: dark knight movie) is an perfect example of this.
Good act requires intent, so make good to disguise an greater future evil is pretty acceptable. To defy autorithy figures, can display an person that values strengh, and physical superiority there i believe is related to anyone that outmatch or show pleny capacity to outmatch the paladin of slaughter.
My big problem with taking a loose interpretation is the word 'always'. This kinda takes out lots of subtlety options, since failure to always actively defy authority. By physical superiority, the class restricts interpretations further since its a melee class. They are warriors, but I think you can allow a successful intimidate check to meet your code. Of course, Any DM can take stuff as they wish, but i dont completely agree your interpretation is entirely true to the text.
but more importantly, how are those nongood rangers? On topic!