Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Categories

Attention, Beamdog forum-goers!📢Starting on November 8, our forums will be unavailable for a few weeks while we migrate to a self-hosted site.

Check out the full announcement for more information on forum features, data transfer, and 3rd party OAuth:

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/83099/beamdog-forum-migration

No Love for The Barbarian

I like to try out all the classes and even had a decent run with a Wizard Slayer, so I decided to try out the Barbarian even though I heard bad things about it. But nevertheless I rolled a great score for her, 18/48str 18dex 18con 10w/i 14ch. I went with maxing out two handed swords and two handed weapons style. She did fine for the first half of the game chunking those pesky kolbods and etc. But once we got to creatures that she couldn't kill in the first couple rounds of the fight that's when her class disadvantages really showed through.

Through out the whole game she had the lowest Ac of my fighters.. My Cleric had a ac of -7. my ranger had an ac -5 My monk had an ac of -4 while my Barbarian had the lowest with an -2. The problem with that any thing moderately strong could swing and hit her. So great now she can absorb the damage and be the tank like she's supposed to be. Wrong because she will easily die before my party can do some serious damaged. To make her a successful tank I would have to have my cleric singly focus on my Barbarian, which in this case would be the right thing to do, except my Barbarian would absorb damage to fast for my cleric to keep up.

Now the Barbarian Rage the special feature of her class was okay. It helped a bit when I knew there was going to go against things like charm and confusion. But in the long run I didn't see much use with it. Though it did go well with her when she was using the Worlds Edge. I found it to be pretty good. So in hindsight I don't think I"m going to be using this class again unless she can wear better armor. And I'm really struggling whether or not I will use her in the second game Sigh...

meagloth
«1

Comments

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,303
    edited July 2014
    The good thing about the barbarian in BGEE is that you have a lot of health and do a lot of damage (because of your strength and constitution bonuses from your rage, as well as your 1d12 health). But you are going to take more hits compared to a a fighter or cleric in full plate mail. Technically you are better off using Drizzt's Mithral Chainmail, at least when it comes to AC. But otherwise there isn't much available for you to use (so Splintmail and a ring of protect +1 or +2 would probably be your best bet).

    TressetCrevsDaakBlackravenSCARY_WIZARD
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,472
    @Tresset is completely right about Armor for Barbarians. In that sense the Barbarian is a class that starts to shine in BG2 (better gear, innate physical resistances, more use for rage) while they're lacklustre in BG1, just like the Swashbuckler (who suffers from lack of weapon proficiencies in BG1) for example or the Monk (who has little going for him in BG1 in terms of good class feats). These classes/kits were originally developed fo the second game, which kind of explains why they can be a little underwhelming in the first game.
    By the way I think you might be able to get lower AC for your Barbarian if you get all the AC boosting items for her.

  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    Tresset said:

    Armor gets MUCH better for barbarians in the second game. Just wait till you get the white dragon scale!

    Does that mean I have to kill that silver dragon in the underdark?

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,472

    Tresset said:

    Armor gets MUCH better for barbarians in the second game. Just wait till you get the white dragon scale!

    Does that mean I have to kill that silver dragon in the underdark?
    Nope, you don't. It's a ToB item.
    But you'll be able to acquire fine suits of armor before that.

    CrevsDaak
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,472

    Tresset said:

    Armor gets MUCH better for barbarians in the second game. Just wait till you get the white dragon scale!

    Does that mean I have to kill that silver dragon in the underdark?
    Nope, you don't. It's a ToB item.
    But you'll be able to acquire fine suits of armor before that.
    Edit: apart from the items @Elminster mentioned, you can find a Helmet and a Cloak that give additional AC protection.


    18 DEX, Splint Mail, Ring of Protection +1/+2, Helm of Balduran, Cloak of Balduran = AC -4, which isn't bad. You can also use potions (be generous with them), and spells such as Defensive Harmony, Protection From Evil 15' Radius, to protect your Barbarian better.

  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470

    Tresset said:

    Armor gets MUCH better for barbarians in the second game. Just wait till you get the white dragon scale!

    Does that mean I have to kill that silver dragon in the underdark?
    Nope, you don't. It's a ToB item.
    But you'll be able to acquire fine suits of armor before that.
    Edit: apart from the items @Elminster mentioned, you can find a Helmet and a Cloak that give additional AC protection.


    18 DEX, Splint Mail, Ring of Protection +1/+2, Helm of Balduran, Cloak of Balduran = AC -4, which isn't bad. You can also use potions (be generous with them), and spells such as Defensive Harmony, Protection From Evil 15' Radius, to protect your Barbarian better.
    What kind of potions are we talking about?

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,156

    Tresset said:

    Armor gets MUCH better for barbarians in the second game. Just wait till you get the white dragon scale!

    Does that mean I have to kill that silver dragon in the underdark?
    Nope, you don't. It's a ToB item.
    But you'll be able to acquire fine suits of armor before that.
    Edit: apart from the items elminster mentioned, you can find a Helmet and a Cloak that give additional AC protection.


    18 DEX, Splint Mail, Ring of Protection +1/+2, Helm of Balduran, Cloak of Balduran = AC -4, which isn't bad. You can also use potions (be generous with them), and spells such as Defensive Harmony, Protection From Evil 15' Radius, to protect your Barbarian better.
    What kind of potions are we talking about?
    Probably all of them that could be used as buffs.

    meagloth
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited July 2014
    Drizzt's mithril is the way to go, but do it quick. They're removing the invisibility exploit in 1.3!

    Post edited by meagloth on
    CrevsDaakElrandirelminster
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    +4 strength is pretty hilarious in bg, especially if you started with only a 15... 19 str is total hulk mode.

    In bg1, I would suspect Barbarians would be well advised to use some manner of throwing weapon or sling; you are fast and can kite, and massive strength bonus to damage is going to make for ugly damage dealing. The best part, since you're not tempted to GM anything, you can totally spend proficiencies on convinience weapons. Its not quite a Archer for this (spec in bow, twf, and 2 melee profs) but you get plenty of points to play with. Axe makes sense, with the returning axe (you can use a shield!), but daggrrs work well too, and the dag of ven is a game winner.

  • thespacethespace Member Posts: 1,039
    Do boots of speed stack with Barbarian speed?

    I wonder if a Barbarian is immune to the automatic chunking backstab of the Shadow Thieves in their layer (I've never sided with the vamps, just got caught pickpocketing or somethin', and they backstab ya dead automatically when they turn hostile). Hmmm...

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    SharGuidesMyHand
  • thespacethespace Member Posts: 1,039
    edited July 2014

    ya why not just use a shield?? that'd solve the AC problem...

    Her focus was on the two handed sword.

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,559
    edited July 2014

    I went with maxing out two handed swords and two handed weapons style.

    This was your mistake here. You should've either,
    1. Spent her points on a one-handed weapon so you could also use a shield, and/or
    2. Given her profs in a ranged weapon so that she wasn't forced to be a tank all the time.

    (Ironically though, I'm about to make the very same mistake by starting a BG1 playthrough with a halberd-wielding barbarian - but it's mainly because I'm determined to use this pic for a portrait:
    image

    I guess it's no surprise that barbarians have poor AC, LOL.)

    So great now she can absorb the damage and be the tank like she's supposed to be.

    Contrary to popular belief, barbarians aren't intended to be strictly tanks - they're versatile warriors with a number of offbeat advantages. If you want your character to be solely a tank, you'd probably be better served using a berserker.

    In your case, your barbarian had 18 str and dext, so she would've done very well with a sling (getting a damage bonus from the high str). Alternatively, you could've armed her with a one-handed weapon in combination with a longbow (with 18 str, she can use composite bows), and then given her points in "single weapon style" as she level'd up, which would've improved her AC even without a shield.


    And I'm really struggling whether or not I will use her in the second game Sigh...

    Don't struggle - the second game is where all your current efforts will finally pay off.

    Barbarians are arguably the most ideally suited warriors for playing BG2, due to BG2's increased emphasis on magic (which is countered by the barbarian rages) and, as others here have said, there are many more magic armors available which will easily offset the barbarian's armor restrictions. Not only that, but by BG2, you will be able to rage many more times per day, even stringing multiple rages back-to-back, and you will also gain physical resistances. Plus, the barbarian's immunity to backstab will also come into play, albeit perhaps only on rare occasions.

    Post edited by SharGuidesMyHand on
    BlackravenSCARY_WIZARDDexter
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,559
    thespace said:


    I wonder if a Barbarian is immune to the automatic chunking backstab of the Shadow Thieves in their layer (I've never sided with the vamps, just got caught pickpocketing or somethin', and they backstab ya dead automatically when they turn hostile). Hmmm...

    If you do something to cause the thieves to turn hostile before setting out after Imoen (in other words, making the game impossible to proceed to the next chapter), an Easter egg character is generated that has the ability to one-shot kill anyone that he hits.

    See this thread here for a more detailed explanation:
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/24022/arkanis-gath/p1

    thespace
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Barbarian are extremely strong in BG1, I think far more than in BG2.

    In BG2, Strenght items are easy to come by while in BG1, having a character being able to boost his Str from 18 to 22 is no joke. The gain when you go from 18 to 19 is huuuuuge.

    I think the problem lies in your preference for two handed sword.

    A Barbarian should dual wield from the very start of the game to maximise the benefits of his Rage. You will go (in most cases) from +2 bonus to hit to +4, which means you will easily hit even if you dual wield and going from let's say +3 damage to +10 bonus damage is ALOT more powerful when you have 2.5 APR right off the start of the game instead of 1.5 APR.

    For example, create a Barbarian, put 2 pips in a melee weapon of your choice, let's say Flails, and 2 pips in dual wielding. Activate your rage and attack Firebead, there is a huge probability that you are going to kill him in one round, it really deals heavy damage.

    And if you want to take less damage, you could always put 2 pips in Dagger, and throw some of them at your enemies. Throwing daggers start at 2 APR, take the Str bonus to damage, and take both Str and Dex bonus to hit, which means you will hit very often, you will attack as fast as if you were dual wielding while equipping a shield, and with your Rage on, you will deal so much damage from range. (At level 1, 1d4+2 specialized + 10 Str = 13-17 damage from range at 2.5 APR, it's far better than the damage of an Archer and you will have 20 -1 specialized -2 Dex - 4 Str = 13 Thac0 once again, better than an Archer) And because the Barbarian run faster, it's easy to kite when needed.

    In BG2, your armor will still be crappy and many Fighters will get Str boosting items, so your Rage won't be that impressive anymore. And 10-15-20% damage reduction isn't going to help alot.
    But ! When you will reach ToB, well at least the HLAs, pick Hardiness and become the machine of destruction you were supposed to be. Hardiness + passive + Defender of Eastheven = 80% damage reduction. You will be one of the most resilient character and you will kick some serious *ss in melee.

    Good luck ! It's not to tell you that going for two handed weapons for flavor isn't possible, but in this case, dual wielding is far more efficient.

    terzaerianchickenhedSCARY_WIZARD
  • ElrandirElrandir Member Posts: 1,664
    meagloth said:

    They're removing the invisibility exploit in 1.3!

    Why? Why the he** do they need to do that? There are so many more important things that can be fixed. I understand that some exploits are just ridiculous like Aec'latec and cloudkill, but this wasn't a big thing. I hate how they're making it so you HAVE to take a massive rep hit and have a thirty minute fight that four of your six party members won't make it out of alive. I don't want that! I want him to die quickly and not take a massive rep hit. Da** developers... (Note: I actually don't dislike them. I think they've done a great job. I just wish they'd stop removing every fun little exploit)

    Anyway, sorry for derailing.

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,559
    Elrandir said:

    Da** developers... (Note: I actually don't dislike them. I think they've done a great job. I just wish they'd stop removing every fun little exploit)

    That's one of the reasons that I probably won't download 1.3 if/when it's ever released. At this point, the game is already enhanced enough IMO - many of the "enhancements" now verge on unproductive meddling IMO.

    Elrandir
  • terzaerianterzaerian Member Posts: 231
    You need a mod which allows you to dual-class as a barbarian. *nods*

  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470

    I went with maxing out two handed swords and two handed weapons style.

    This was your mistake here. You should've either,
    1. Spent her points on a one-handed weapon so you could also use a shield, and/or
    2. Given her profs in a ranged weapon so that she wasn't forced to be a tank all the time.

    (Ironically though, I'm about to make the very same mistake by starting a BG1 playthrough with a halberd-wielding barbarian - but it's mainly because I'm determined to use this pic for a portrait:
    image

    I guess it's no surprise that barbarians have poor AC, LOL.)

    So great now she can absorb the damage and be the tank like she's supposed to be.

    Contrary to popular belief, barbarians aren't intended to be strictly tanks - they're versatile warriors with a number of offbeat advantages. If you want your character to be solely a tank, you'd probably be better served using a berserker.

    In your case, your barbarian had 18 str and dext, so she would've done very well with a sling (getting a damage bonus from the high str). Alternatively, you could've armed her with a one-handed weapon in combination with a longbow (with 18 str, she can use composite bows), and then given her points in "single weapon style" as she level'd up, which would've improved her AC even without a shield.


    And I'm really struggling whether or not I will use her in the second game Sigh...

    Don't struggle - the second game is where all your current efforts will finally pay off.

    Barbarians are arguably the most ideally suited warriors for playing BG2, due to BG2's increased emphasis on magic (which is countered by the barbarian rages) and, as others here have said, there are many more magic armors available which will easily offset the barbarian's armor restrictions. Not only that, but by BG2, you will be able to rage many more times per day, even stringing multiple rages back-to-back, and you will also gain physical resistances. Plus, the barbarian's immunity to backstab will also come into play, albeit perhaps only on rare occasions.
    I really thought about it when creating her whether or not I was going have go with a shield and sword or a Two handed style. Dual wielding was out of the question as my Ranger was already dual wielding and I like to keep it one style per group. By end game she had 19str and was doing some serious damage whenever she would land a blow. It was just that she couldn't stay in the fray long enough to deal those blows.

    You know mechanics wise it seems to be the case that they can't tank, but when I think of Barbarians I just happen to think of Wulfgar and he's just the definition of taking. About the whole range weapon thing. I already had four members of my party planned to be range so Five was over doing it a bit.

    She's doing fine right now in Bg2, but no one is really doing good or bad right now. I can only wait and see what she ends up being like.

  • thespacethespace Member Posts: 1,039
    You could always get Jan, or whoever your thief is, to pick pocket/hoard potions of defense/invulnerability as well, when ya need that extra special somethin'.

    SCARY_WIZARD
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,433
    Barbarians have bigger hit points and a faster movement rate:it really helps that you can reach a kobold archer quicker than a standart fighter to slice the annoying pest. Or when wounded or surrounded by enemies, a barbarian can retreat or swap with a more durable tank easily thanks to his movement rate bonus.

    Also, ranged weapons are the king in bg1, and a barbarian is a very versatile character that can use any weapon combination. At lvl 1, two handed sword++ and long bow++ will make you breeze the game easier. At low levels, melee is dangerous for every character so having a ranged option helps. Or, axe++ and two weapon style++ is another option. Dual wielding axes while in rage will give you more attacks with 22 strength. Also, throwing axes will do good damage with that high strength too. You can buy magical throwing axes+1 from Beregost cheaply:and they can be swapped to use in melee, so you have a magical melee weapon as well. Pick one magical throwing axe and put it on you hand, set it to melee. It will never vanish as long as you don't throw it. Other throwing axes should stay in a pile and be thrown when needed. In this set-up you can equip a big shield for much needed AC as well. Like I said, barbarian is a very versatile character.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Just throw some daggers.

    CrevsDaak
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,156
    Gotural said:

    Just throw some daggers.

    Or axes and you can also dual-wield axes, which isn't anythin near bad :D

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,472
    @Alexisisinneed, useful potions that will increase your Barbarian's resiliance in physical combat are:

    - Potion of Power (Thac0 20% better, HPs +20% for 4 turns)
    - Potion of Mind Focusing (Dex. +3 for 12 hours, will give you a +1 AC bonus)
    - Potion of Defense (AC set to 0 for 10 turns, stacks with AC improving items)
    - Potion of Heroism (90% THACO, +10% HPs for 10 turns)
    - Potion of Invulnerability (Saving Throws +5, AC set to 0 for 5 turns, stacks with AC improving items)
    - Potion of Absorbtion (+10 Bonus AC to crushing attacks, very situational useful against foes like Larze and Taugosz)

    Most of these potions can also be used in combination (although it would be somewhat wasteful to combine a potion of Defense with one of Invulnerability or a potion of Power with one of Heroism).

    CrevsDaakelminsterAlexisisinneed
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    CrevsDaak said:

    Gotural said:

    Just throw some daggers.

    Or axes and you can also dual-wield axes, which isn't anythin near bad :D
    But Axes only have 1 base APR while Daggers, when thrown, have 2 base APR. It's like using a Longbow but with Str bonus which is super strong in the case of Barbarian.

    Bonus : you will finally have a Fighter specialized in Dagger to defeat Karoug with the silver dagger :D

    CrevsDaak
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Axe isnt 1.5 apr base? Huh, been awhile I guess. Daggers are about as good as bg1 weapons get, the dagger of venom... so poison! :p throwing them is very effective.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    DreadKhan said:

    Axe isnt 1.5 apr base? Huh, been awhile I guess. Daggers are about as good as bg1 weapons get, the dagger of venom... so poison! :p throwing them is very effective.

    You usually have 1.5 APR with Axes because you are specialized in them, thus giving you 0.5 APR.

    The same is true for Daggers, if you are specialized, you will start with 2.5 APR from range with a Shield and with the Str bonus. It's far better than anything else in BG1 (until you use Arrow of Detonation).

  • JitterBugJitterBug Member Posts: 37
    Eh il give my take on the barbarian in comparison to the Berserker. Firstly Barbarian Rage vs Enrage.

    Barbarian Rage-Last for 5 rounds, -2 penalty to armor class(bad),+2 to saving throws vs spell, Immunity to all charm,hold,fear,maze,stun,sleep,confusion, and level drain spells, +4 to strength and constitution.

    Enrage-Last for 10 rounds/1 turn, +2 to attack and damage rolls as well as armor class (all good things), becomes immune to charm,confusion,fear, feeble-mind,hold,imprisonment,leveldrain,maze,stun,and sleep, also gains 15 temporary hit points which are taken away at end of enrage possibly knocking him out. After Enrage ends he becomes "winded" suffering -2penalty to attack, damage rolls ,and armor-class.

    So Enrage last 2x longer and gives bonuses to attack,dmg and armor-class during its duration and give penalties to them after it ends, though you can follow it up with another enrage if needed and still get the immunities. Also the "winded" effect doesn't last to long. It also gives a larger list of immunities.

    I've covered the ways in which Enrage is better I think so I'll cover were Barbarian rage "can" be better. Here are the strength benefits for above 18 strength.

    Ability score Hit adj Damage adj Weight Allowance Bashing

    19 +3 +7 500 50
    20 +3 +8 600 55
    21 +4 +9 700 60
    22 +4 +10 800 65
    23 +5 +11 1000 70
    24 +6 +12 1200 75
    25 +7 +14 1600 80

    I'l now compare hit and dmg bonuses. 25strength with rage barbarian just cuz has 7hit adjustment and 14dmg adjustment add 1+to hit and +2 to dmg with specialized and get +8hit and +16dmg

    Berzerker with 19 strength has +3hit +7dmg than +5hit +9dmg total with Enrage than +8hit +14dmg total with grand mastery added not to mention 1/2 more attacks and -3 attack speed but wait thats not all its possible to get 25 natural strength between bg1 and bg2 so lets see how that pans out 7+2+3=12hit and 14+2+5=21dmg...damn

    Alright now for constitution

    Ability score Hpgain Shorty Saving Regeneration
    Fighters Throws

    18 +4 5 0
    19 +5 5 0
    20 +5 5 1hp/turn
    21 +6 5 2hp/turn
    22 +6 5 3hp/turn
    23 +6 5 4hp/turn
    24 +7 5 5hp/turn
    25 +7 5 6hp/turn

    You can potentially have 23 natural constitution in the game 24temporary with a certain Axe, enough for max hp per level gain and the constitution isn't terribly relevant past 20 good for resting and traveling not so much for combat. But That aside Barbarian get naturally 2more hp a level..well potentially atleast. And not every one will get the full +4 con 2 of it is from an "evil" choice 1 is from the constitution tome in bg1 and another from Machine of Lum the Mad. Similarly not Every one will take the potentially +6 strength available. Role playing aside I'm giving a strictly power-gaming perspective.

    Conclusion strength and constitution gains from Berserk Rage can be rendered less effecting or irrelevant by high stats or strength items which set your strength to a set number such as a hammer that sets strength to 25 any ways and belts that set it up to 22. The flat bonus from Enrage will always be fully effective unless winded which don't last long and Using while winded gets rid of the the deficits because the + and - cancel each other out.

    Ok so that covers my Enrage vs Barbarian Rage Generally Speaking Enrage is better and will never lose its relevance.

    Now for Barbarian Passives and there effects and the impact of the class Disadvantages for both.
    Barbarian moves 2pts faster and is immune to backstab. The 2pts faster is useful for getting to enemies faster and does work with boots of speed though with boots of speed it can be argued your fast enough also can be annoying when moving ass a group as the passive speed boost will have you running past the others. Immune to back stab can be a god send particularly because enamies auto back stab even if they're not behind you. Barbarians also get 10% dmg resistance to slashing,piercing,blunt and missile at level 11, and a farther 5% at level 15 and 19 for 20% total wich is good being that most every thing will hit you better to be taking less damage.

    Now for disadvantages Barbarian cant were armor past splint male which of course means they have lower ac even with higher better enchanted armor they can were in bg2 they'll theyl still fall behind being that they cant were other protecting items with there enchanted male like rings or cloaks of protection.

    Berserker can't use ranged weapons wich is not really relevant at all on account of ranged weapons being the most commonly resisted weapons and falling behind by a long shot in comparison to melee dmg. Generally the only "dps" character that should use ranged weapons as primary damage is the Archer. Also they can still throw weapons which receive all there dmg and hit bonuses from strength any how.

    So thats about all I can think to say on the whole Berserker is just better the Barbarian can have better dmg bg 1 with rage but will also have alot less ac and end game Berserker can have objectivly better dmg with more attacks per round on top of it.

    I personally just add Enrage on top of barbarian rage to the barbarian so i can just use which ever i think would be more effective at that time.

    elminsterBlackraven
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    edited July 2014
    @JitterBug‌

    But in the end, the Barbarian will reach 80% damage reduction (20% base + 40% Hardiness + 20% Defender of Eastheven) while the Berserker will only reach 60% (no passive). Thus, the Barbarian will effectively take half as much damage as the Berserker which will make him far, far FAR more powerful.

    Post edited by Gotural on
    elminsterCrevsDaakthespaceEadwyn_G8keeper
Sign In or Register to comment.