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Irenicus vs Balthazar

As I played through the Baldur's Gate series, I grew quite fond of these two characters. They share some significant similarities(but not entire ones). They are both clever, patient, calm and devious with their plans. Irenicus is one of the most memorable villains in any video game. But I found Balthazar more interesting since he is more into the good alignment. He seems pretty underrated. Anyway, I've done some research and found out that they are both pretty much around the same level.
Jon Irenicus=Level 30,or 29
Balthazar=Level 30

Mages are some of the most powerful classes in the series, yet so are monks. Not to mention Balthazar is completely immune to Time Stop. So who would win in a fight?

Note: I want a competition for only these two. Do not mention Elminister, Drizzt, or any other high class character.

Anduinelminster

Comments

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,532
    Irenicus is a very powerful mage, but as a monk, Balthazar should have very high magic resistance.

    From memory, I usually have a much tougher time with Balthazar, whereas Irenicus turns into a bitch very quickly, especially when I tank him with a FoA-wielding barbarian.

    Anduin
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Theme-wise I'd put the Five on a tier above Irenicus (except Illasera), and Balthazar is arguably the most powerful among them.

    Anduin
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    If you put the two NPCs in the game and make them fight, I think Balthazar will win, but that's only because the AI is stupid and Irenicus is dumb.

    If you could put them in a "real" fight, where Irenicus could exploit his 18 Int then he would perfect Balthazar every time, simply because a Monk cannot really do anything apart from attacking while the Mage is only limited by his strategy.

    AnduinTJ_HookerDJKajuruthe_spyder
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    In-game: Probably Balthasar with his resistances and immunities.
    In PnP/lore: Irenicus hands down.

    Anduinthe_spyder
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited July 2014
    Irenicus. Balthazar would bend just hearing David Warner speak. :p

    Looking at their character files I would say Balthazar if only because Irenicus doesn't have a lot of spell options (and balthazar has 90% magic resistance). However, if he had a proper spellbook I am sure you could devise a strategy for him to win. It would be a good fight though.

    dementedAnduin
  • dementeddemented Member Posts: 388
    It depends. Irenicus would have little chance in a random encounter. Balthazar's near immunity to magic plus his speed means that Irenicus would be dead before having a chance to defend himself.

    However, if Irenicus had time to to prepare; if he was able to buff and summon creatures then I can see him easily overcoming Balthazar.

    Anduin
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited July 2014
    Thing is that even summons might not be enough. Balthazar has -14 AC, 5 APR and regenerates at a rate of 5hp/second. Mordenkainen's Sword couldn't be hurt by him, but even with 5 of them they would never do enough damage against him given his AC and their Thac0 (which is 10). Even a planetar (2 Thac0 after its strength bonus) would only hit him about 1/4 of the time. A planetar has -8 AC so Balthazar (who has -9 Thac0 when you include his strength bonus) would have a 95% chance to hit it while doing 1d20 + 3 (+ 10 from strength damage) against it with 5 APR. It only has about 110 health, though it does have 4hp/second regeneration. Either way it wouldn't last long!

    To me anyways he would definitely need something other than summons to fight successfully against Balthazar. Maybe Shapechange (Mindflayer) and a trigger that includes Tenser's Transformation. I'm not sure.

  • JonelethIrenicusJonelethIrenicus Member Posts: 157
    Ah children, you know nothing! Irenicus would win. As a mage he got lots of ways to deal with Balthazar not to mention the most powerful ability, Rapture of the Father, a death spell that appears to be able to instantly kill six enemies with no regard to magic resistance or saving throws,

    elminster
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited July 2014

    Ah children, you know nothing! Irenicus would win. As a mage he got lots of ways to deal with Balthazar not to mention the most powerful ability, Rapture of the Father, a death spell that appears to be able to instantly kill six enemies with no regard to magic resistance or saving throws,

    For the record I checked. Rapture of the Father doesn't allow a save however it does not bypass magic resistance. In addition Balthazar would be immune to that spells slay effect, so at most it could do a handful of damage against him (which his regeneration would recover). :)

  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    edited July 2014
    Okay. My thoughts.

    It depends on the scene of the battle.

    If they were randomly dropped into a cage and told to fight.

    Irenicus would question the motives of the omnipresent authority guiding them to fight, whilst Balthazar would try to talk first, before using fists. Comabt would not ensue.

    If they were randomly dropped into a cage and told to fight = DRAW

    If Irenicus decided to steal Balthazars Bhaal powers and not CHARNAME, through a long drawn out affair of meticulous planning eventually drawing them together for a showdown.

    Irenicus would manipulate the entire situation making Balthazar question his motives, his friends and existance. Plus if Balthazar, actually took the role of CHARNAME, we all know he would die outside Candlekeep eaten by a wolf because lvl 1 Monks are weak.

    If Irenicus decided to steal Balthazars Bhaal powers and not CHARNAME. = WIN IRENICUS

    A surprise encounter in a dungeon containing a treasure of considerable power where the two characters cannot allow the other to escape with the prize.

    Well, Balthazar would lay the smack down. Immune to magic, Irenicus would quickly realise he is no match for Balthazar and direct his magical energies against the dungeon walls themselves. Using Bigby's fists to smash down the walls and such... Balthazar and Irenicus would probably survive the burial, but Irenicus would be able to get out first using gate and use measures to flood the area or bombard it, call lightening strikes onto the flooded ground, raise an army etc to ensure Balthazar is drowned, crushed and destroyed.

    A surprise encounter in a dungeon. = WIN IRENICUS

    An encounter in a forest setting to save / gain a unicorn horn

    Now I don't think Balthazar cares overly for nature. But he could use the trees to conduct amazing feats of agility. Spinning through the air in deft and deadly strikes. He would be very hard to hit through the use of spells other more mundane weaponry.

    Shame Irenicus could just fireball the forest to oblivion and watch Balthazar roast from the safety of his Otilukes sphere... Then find the unicorn corpse...

    An encounter in a forest setting. = WIN IRENICUS

    Flung from the back of a Roc, falling through the air scrabbling for a gnome invented device to slow falls called the Fallslower device (The inventor Mr. Parachute couldn't think of a better name at the time...)

    Balthazar with his unique abilities would guide himself through the air with ease towards the Fallslower device, in calm and serenity. Put the device on and glide to the floor to land lightly.

    Irenicus would probably lash out and shoot wildly in all directions. Lightening arcing from his hands. It would be the great end all villains secretly dream of since Return of the Jedi... Without time to control his anger he would be dashed against the rocks below.

    Flung from the back of a Roc. = WIN BALTHAZAR

    So you see... I have determined... That...

    ...

    ... It was an interesting thought exercise if nothing else...

    elminsterlolienChackDJKajuru
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    edited July 2014
    How the fight would end.

    Irenicus starts with Stoneskin. Contingency PfMW, he activates a Spell Trigger Lower Resistance x3 and then his Chain Contingency ADHW x3 would trigger, and he instantly recast one ( Contingencies spells are instant cast, can be cast during pause and don't count on the limit of one spell per round) with 3 others ADHW if the first three weren't enough.

    Balthazar dies in the first round.

    PS: ADHW does an average of 90 damage per cast. Considering Balthazar will make all his saves against them he will take 90/2 x 3 = 135 damage instantly, killing him outright.
    You can't beat a good mage if you're not one yourself.

    Post edited by Gotural on
    lolienDexter
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,213
    edited July 2014
    Gotural said:

    How the fight would end.

    Irenicus starts with Stoneskin. Contingency PfMW, he activates a Spell Trigger Lower Resistance x3 and then his Chain Contingency ADHW x3 would trigger, and he instantly recast one ( Contingencies spells are instant cast, can be cast during pause and don't count on the limit of one spell per round) with 3 others ADHW if the first three weren't enough.

    Balthazar dies in the first round.

    PS: ADHW does an average of 90 damage per cast. Considering Balthazar will make all his saves against them he will take 90/2 x 3 = 135 damage instantly, killing him outright.
    You can't beat a good mage if you're not one yourself.

    This damage to begin with very much of course dependent upon how you set your continguencies. Balthazar could enter into shadows immediately into the fight (perhaps moving back if necessary depending upon how the fight is arranged). Then reappear. If you set your continguency to either on sight or the on hit setting (a hit is virtually guaranteed given Irenicus at best -4 AC and Balthazar has -5 Thac0) your ADHW's will likely be sent before you can cast the trigger on him. Rendering the first three likely ineffective.

    Even if you are able to do this damage against him Balthazar has 280 health and a save vs spell of 4. Meaning there is a 85% chance of him getting the save against any one of those ADHW's (there is about a 52% chance of him getting every save).

    But even if you reduce his magic resistance to 0, and assuming he makes 3 out of those 4 saves, which is likely, he would take an average of about 225 damage (45*3 + 90). He then chugs a potion of superior healing (he has 5 of them) and within the next 6 seconds as a result heals 70 damage (5 hp/sec from regeneration and 40 from the potion).

    Since we are given Irenicus spells that he currently doesn't have (Spell Trigger, Continguency, Chain Continguency, Lower Resistance), I think at the very least it would be fair to give Balthazar access to fighter HLA's (also stealth skills since apparently he isn't programmed with them even though he would have up to 290 skill points to distribute). Balthazar then activates Resist Magic, bringing his magic resistance up to 50%.

    Either way I doubt this fight would be decided in one round.

    Post edited by elminster on
  • simplessimples Member Posts: 540
    i beat balthazar with stoneskin, improved alacrity, summon planetar and a bunch of dragon's breaths.. so i feel like irenicus probably could too

    the_spyder
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,282
    demented said:

    It depends. Irenicus would have little chance in a random encounter. Balthazar's near immunity to magic plus his speed means that Irenicus would be dead before having a chance to defend himself.

    No encounters are random when dealing with Archmages.

    the_spyderGotural
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    demented said:

    It depends. Irenicus would have little chance in a random encounter. Balthazar's near immunity to magic plus his speed means that Irenicus would be dead before having a chance to defend himself.

    However, if Irenicus had time to to prepare; if he was able to buff and summon creatures then I can see him easily overcoming Balthazar.

    I gotta disagree here. Irenicus would have contingencies prepared such that he wouldn't get caught out for long, certainly not long enough to be killed. And he also has teleport, so he would be able to escape and return to reign death on Balthazar at a later point. maybe you would call that a win on Balthazar's part, but death is the ultimate leveller.

    Gotural
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