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Would you like to see a hunger and thirst mechanic added to the game?



  • CatoblepasCatoblepas Member Posts: 96
    I like the idea of more simulationist mechanics in D&D games in general. There are rules for all sorts of fun things in D&D like managing food and water. taking into account all of those little rules such as wages for hirlings, availability and pricing of goods and services, travel time based on terrain, spell components, etc etc can be a bit difficult for DM's at times, so IMO computer games would be an ideal medium for going deeper into D&D mechanics.

    The problem, I think-is that I'm not sure Baldur's Gate as is-infinity engine and all-is the ideal place to add these sorts of simulationist mechanics. The mechanics and UI just don't lend themselves towards that sort of gameplay. Remember, this is a game where you can't even ride a horse-I wouldn't expect to be able to set who takes first watch when the party rests, or the spellbook page to keep track of how good your wizard is in regard to spell components, etc.

    I'd *love* to have a simulationist D&D computer game, I just don't think Baldur's Gate lends itself to that sort of thing naturally.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,309
    edited July 2014
    Yeah, like @Catoblepas it's not the sort of feature I would envision for a BG series mod, but I could see it as an element of a D&D CRPG that is yet to be made. I'm a fan of shows like Survivor Man and Dual Survival so I think it would add a fascinating variable to the overall challenge.

    Just to brainstorm a little about how such features would fit into such a game:

    First, no, characters would not actually have to eliminate waste. ;-P That would be assumed.

    Impairment to functioning (including to powers of concentration for spellcasters) from dehydration, malnutrition, and fatigue from lack of rest sets in gradually, but eventually becomes crippling and will finally result in death if those physical needs aren't met.

    Those who can hunt, provided game is available, would have an advantage. It would however take true skill to stalk and take down wild game. Some gear would be required to make a fire and cook food. Food and drink would of course be readily available at taverns and inns for those that lack hunting skills. Food/drink can be stolen also from village and city homes. There would be a limit to how much travel food you can carry (stuff like jerky or the equivalent of Tolkien's elven lambas bread). Water skins hold a limited amount of water, but could be refilled either at community wells, and from rushing streams and springs. In desert and frozen regions the availability of potable water is obviously a life-and-death issue.

    I'd add other real world physical challenges like actually needing rope to scale the side of buildings or to haul things up from caves. I'd also give gold and treasure its actual weight, so that you'd need pack mules. Maybe even horse-drawn wagons would be available. There would be times that a treasure chest is found--but how do you get that 200 lbs thing (or five such chests) out of the dungeon? Etc.

    There would also be the problem of safely storing treasure once you have acquired it. You could either convert heavier, larger treasure to highly valuable gems from rich individuals (typically at a substantial loss for the transaction), or you could eventually seek to take ownership of a dwelling of some sort and hoard it there. Owning a "keep," for example, would actually have value then.

    Anyway, it would clearly not be for everyone, but I think it would involve a lot more strategy and planning. I'd at least enjoy trying such a game.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,305
    Archaos said:

    But in games like Fallout New Vegas on Hardcore Mode it's absolutely awesome and my personal favorite.

    Honestly I felt that mode added absolutely nothing to the game. There was just so much water and food in the game that it never felt like much of anything in terms of a challenge (just was an inconvenience to make you have to eat it since apparently your characters are too dumb to even have an option of auto eating it).

    As for BGEE/BG2EE I believe on these forums I once compared this concept to making players in a GTA game fill up for gas. Sure, it adds to the realism, but to make a game interesting sometimes you have to let go of that in favour of fantasy. In my opinion this is one of those times.
  • BelanosBelanos Member Posts: 968
    If it was a solo game I'd be all for it. But having to manage the diets of 6 party members would be a bit much.

  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I'm kind of split on this. In the Eye of the Beholder games, I found the hunger mechanic dull and tedious, and once it became available, prayed for the Cleric spell Create Food so I could ditch my rations. But in the Lone Wolf game book series, I thought it added a lot of depth and tough choices to the experience.
    Whether it's because of a mouse driven GUI versus a pencil and paper action chart, having to manage multiple characters' hunger as opposed to one's, or some other reason, I can't say. I am, as I said, split on the idea.
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,268
    I'm not fond of the idea. I played around with hunger mods for Oblivion and Skyrim and eventually uninstalled them because I got tired of the "see hunger message, enter inventory, click on food, exit" routine.

    Dealing with a whole party's hunger and thirst will be a pain. Not to mention with the way travel mechanics work it would drive me up the wall to have my party starve to death just by transitioning between areas.

    If food actually was a resource that's hard to come by, like in survival games, I'd actually be a bit more for it. But food in BG2 is 'cheap' by an adventurer's standards (keep in mind you're using gold, an upper-end currency. One gold could keep a peasant fed for a couple of days) so it would be an irritating, repetitive action.

    What I would be interested in is for damage to have more lasting effects. I find it more unrealistic that parties can walk around at 10% hp and still act completely healthy, going on for days with likely crippling wounds. The possibility of reduced movement speed, lowered THAC0 and AC or even bleeding out could be an interesting mechanic, though I'm not sure how enjoyable it would be after a while.
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    In a game with spells like Goodberry (in PnP each berry is as nourishing as a full meal), Create Water, Purify Food & Drink, and Create Food & Water, it is guaranteed to just be tedious.

    If you've got a 5th+ level cleric, he/she can cast Create Food & Water and make at least 15 "person-days" worth of rations and a party of 6 would only use 6 per day. Even though these rations expire in 24 hrs, a casting of Purify Food & Drink will extend those rations for another day. So, with one 3rd level spell and one 1st level spell every other day, the party cleric reduces the chance of starvation to 0.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    edited July 2014
    I'm all for more immersion and realism within RPG's. But I wouldn't just stop at hunger and thirst mechanics: surely there are many places and situations within the Baldur's Gate Trilogy where hypothermia, hyperthermia, and altitude sickness should play major roles as well. Such things would no doubtly chance the current "walk through the park" adventures into true life and death situations that players need to overcome.

    Alas, I'm also quite aware that I'm just a small part of a minority here for prefering such challenging realism mechanics in an fantasy RPG... ah well, I'm allowed to dream right?

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I understand conceptually what is being proposed. And given that several solutions to the Inventory Tetris problem have been suggested, I'd still lean away from it. Not that someone couldn't create a mod for those who like it, but I certainly wouldn't.

    Yes, you could create an icon on the paper doll tab instead of using an inventory slot. But if you did and it didn't add weight, then what exactly does it do and where's the value add? I there isn't some form of hardship associated, it really isn't that much of a mechanic. And the more hardships you add, the less people are going to want it.

    Just my two cents.
  • dementeddemented Member Posts: 388
    I like the idea of it, but I think it would get really infuriating after a while. At the beginning of RPG playthroughs I'll often add such restrictions to my game. At first it's fun and adds to the immersion, but after a while it just gets tiresome and I'll stop doing it.

    I think it could make a neat mod though.
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  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457

    There is so much over the top stuff going on that i dont think adding food would be the nr 1 realism thing to add.
  • CoM_SolaufeinCoM_Solaufein Member Posts: 2,607
    I can't be bothered with this sort of thing. My party rarely sleeps either. I'm a hard task master.
  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    I really like the concept as such though. In new vegas i always have it on for example. But bg2 doesnt fit for it imo
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    Depends a bit on how it would work. I tend to limit my resting because it feels like abusing game mechanics if one rests too often. So having food and drink as rations could be nice and you can only rest in the wild if you have rations. Restock at nearest Inn.

    Other then that, no thanks.
  • simplessimples Member Posts: 540
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251

    I can't be bothered with this sort of thing. My party rarely sleeps either. I'm a hard task master.

    Sleep lightly.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    I've always thought that BG falls far short of being a realistic simultion. In addition to hunger, I'd like to see a few more things added :

    - Needing to visit a tailor/armorsmith to get your new items resized before you can wear them. When Dorn gets an upgrade, his old armor isn't going to fit Korgan without a lot of hard work.

    - Requirement to file a tax return every year. Just because you are a wandering adventurer, it doesn't mean you are exempt from taxes.

    - Potential party members need to have a health and safety briefing before joining. It's just common sense people!
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,309
    @karnor00 You jest but in canon Amn foreign adventurers are required to register with the government (the office of Internal Defense run by the Meisarch), and there are taxes and fees for all kinds of things in the Land of Merchants (as Amn is also known).
  • JenzafarJenzafar Member Posts: 303
    Bah. Eating would be an annoying requirement. I wouldn't mind seeing some appetizers on the bar menus alongside all those ales and wines, though. Kobold nuggets, beer battered xvarts, Mellicamp satay . . . mmmmm . . .
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    edited August 2014
    While food and lodging could make an interesting challenge for full parties in a substantially reworked or yet to be developed game, I feel that far more interesting and much easier to implement would be more depth to existing interactions in the game's various Inns, Taverns, etc.

    Real conversations that have more flavor and structure but don't necessarily lead anywhere. But a few of them do contain clues to certain mysteries leading to minor subquests such as actually rescuing the young noble Kagain was searching for.

    To that end, offering to buy a round or two could elicit more information that might make more RP sensible such early game exploits as Basilisks and Sirens without forced metagaming. With a penalty of risking passing out and being robbed, poisoned or kidnapped.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I think before something like this gets implemented, they would have to 'Fix' the whole 'You've traveled for SIX days without resting and are now fatigued because you are too stupid to actually camp for the night', simply because there isn't any kind of mechanism allowing for resting/restoring spells while traveling. It totally gets me when you try to get anywhere in Cloakwood and are constantly fatigued at the end of any trip between maps (as for example). The Gnoll Fortress is another area for this.

    that "To me" is much more anachronistic than the lack of some eat/rest meter.
  • CatoblepasCatoblepas Member Posts: 96

    D&D already has rules for resizing armor though.

    I remember a similar mechanic in the Arcanum game-small characters (like halflings) and large characters (half-ogres) had to use smaller/larger armor than 'medium' sized creatures. those restrictions worked fine in that game and didn't seem too intrusive to me.

  • nosecretnosecret Member Posts: 92
    edited August 2014
    I don't see the value add other than roleplaying value (which I admit it would add).

    But given the fact we can stop in at inns already, a RP-leaning player can already remedy this situation. If the draw is the idea of trail rations, there's always a plethora of antidote potions to act in their stead.

    Edit: one can always pretend they're like Kale and spinach Superfood health-nut drinks. :D
  • PlasticGolemPlasticGolem Member Posts: 98
    Early Ultima games had a food counter: you bough units of rations and your party consumed them at a fixed rate. If you ran out, you started taking damage. It was a method of adding some strategy and tension: in a game where you were always strapped for cash, you had to figure in the cost of replenishing your food, and taking long, unnecessary trips would deplete your supply quickly. But in the BG series, cash is not really hard to come buy, and unless food somehow cost more than, say, magic swords, it wouldn't put much of a dent in your budget.

    Later Ultima games had you buy individual items of food as part of a more highly interactive game world. In Ultima 6, when you rested, each party member ate something or, if you ran out of food, didn't heal that night. But in BG, the hit points you gain from resting are insignificant compared to magic healing. In later Ultimas, magic healing was expensive and resting restored a lot of hit points. I think that Ultima 7 went back to an "eat or take damage" mechanic, and your party (especially a certain bard) would start to complain when they got hungry, indicating it was time to feed them. It was an alright mechanic from the standpoint that the Ultima 7 game world was small and intimate, with lots of everyday objects that could be manipulated, carried and used. Baldur's Gate is more about adventure and fighting than baking bread or stacking crates, so it wouldn't seem to carry over quite to well.

    Fallout used food as a sort of weak healing potion/stimpack. More interestingly, it had a thirst mechanic that would result in dehydration and eventually death if you didn't drink water. But clean water was not always available, and dirty water would give you radiation sickness. This could have been a really interesting mechanic for forcing you to manage both your resources and time, except that it turned out that radiation poisoning was trivially easy and inexpensive to undo, making the whole exercise kind of pointless.

    Point being that eating/drinking mechanics have been part of games before, but whether or not they are interesting depends on how they are executed in the context of the game. If it's nothing more than repetitive housekeeping, it's not very interesting.
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,603
    I think that there's a bit of a dichotomy here in that while a lot of us would like to see more 'realism' in the game, we are playing what is essentially an 'escapist' game. For me, eating falls into the same category as going to the toilet, doing the housework and shopping - boring but necessary. If I wanted to experience even more of that tedium I would play The Sims, not Baldur's Gate.
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited August 2014
    I wouldn't mind if it were optional. I personally like the World of Warcraft food system. Eating food can give temporary buffs to the character depending on what kind of food they were eating.

    For example, each food would give a bonus to a single specific stat to that particular character. I understand we have potions for that, but Warcraft paired the two so that you could get a bonus from both.

    I wouldn't mind my tank eating some hearty mutton chops for +1 STR or CON for a few turns.

    There could possibly even be special banquet sized meals that buffed the whole party! They would give a +1 bonus to the prime stat for that characters class. Not sure how dual-class / multi-class would work though.

    We could possibly even add a butcher / cook npc that would take meat or vegetables gathered in your adventures and turn them into rations for your party.

    To help prevent over use of the food bonus, perhaps when you select a meal it would be consumed the next time the party rested and the bonus would only take effect after the rest was over.

    I don't know, just an idea. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I am just trying to be sympathetic to the OP. I also realize I tend to indent my sentences quite often like short pararaphs. I hope this doesn't bother too many people. It is just a habit I picked up when I was younger. I use it to bring seperate attention to multiple points I make in a comment.
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    No thank you. It's bad enough when NPCs get fatigued before my PC does. No need to add even more micromanagment to the game.
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,283
    Heck No
    As other people pointed out, Baldur's Gate needs no more micromanagement. It would be absurd to add this to the game.
  • FrondFrond Member Posts: 121
    100% Yea. Like in Fallout: New Vegas, hardcore mode. I can't play that game without it. Same with Skyrim and Frostfall.
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