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Let's Talk About Intelligence

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  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,153
    Quartz said:

    dustbubsy said:

    It’s a commonly held belief that you have to be intelligent to be a musician, drummers excepted (just kidding), so it’s no surprise to see two bards here.

    Ehh... disagree. Music does not have to be very complicated to be catchy, which is the most important aspect of any music.
    Nor you have to study to be a good musician... but you might need even more wisdom if you lived in the 60'/70' (Jimi Hendrix of course).

    elminster
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    @Eadwyn_G8keeper
    I disagree - Minsc's intelligence IS a downside. Send him into a pack of Mindflayers and watch as his diet-coke brain is devoured in short order. When it comes to INT, 8 is decidedly not the same as 12, in terms of gameplay.
    His dreadful Wisdom score does him no favors in terms of spell casting, though admittedly that's not nearly as big of a deal. I agree with you about Charisma.

    dustbubsyCrevsDaak
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,532
    edited August 2014
    dustbubsy said:



    5-7 Intelligence is categorised as “low”, on par with mummies and minotaurs. I don’t really understand why Yeslick has such low Int, and he never really exhibits it. An idea I had was that it’s to represent how easily he was fooled by Reiltar (“I’ll just give ye the keys to me mine...”), but value judgements like that could be seen more as Wisdom’s province, of which he has a considerable amount. Ultimately I think Int and Wis work together to give an NPC their mental capacity, which is why Yeslick is more clever than Minsc despite having one less Int – he has the wisdom to know he’s not intelligent, while Minsc doesn’t.

    So why is Yeslick so, er, slow, to put it nicely? Can he read? I’d love to hear your ideas.

    Yeslick's low int could be reflective of his formal education - or lack thereof, to be precise. If he grew up working in the mines (just like the rest of his family), it may be that he never learned to read, but being illiterate isn't necessarily reflective of mental deficits - hence it's quite understandable that he could still have high wisd.

    Besides, like you say, a character's mental functioning may be based on their combination of int and wisd scores - which would explain why Yeslick never appears to be "stupid," as his high wisd offsets any deficits in int.

    Then again, maybe his int is so low because he just isn't good at doing math in his head?

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,532
    Quartz said:

    dustbubsy said:

    It’s a commonly held belief that you have to be intelligent to be a musician, drummers excepted (just kidding), so it’s no surprise to see two bards here.

    Ehh... disagree. Music does not have to be very complicated to be catchy, which is the most important aspect of any music.
    This is certainly true, especially for modern music.

    However, in the case of bards specifically, they are supposed to be telling a story with their music, so they should be more comparable to the likes of Gordon Lightfoot or Lou Reed (RIP) than to Britney Spears or Lil Wayne.

    jackjackEadwyn_G8keeper
  • FleshIsADesignFlawFleshIsADesignFlaw Member Posts: 39
    Is D&D intelligence supposed to be your brains capacity to perform mentally demanding tasks? If so, lack of education , no reading etc has no bearing (that's practice, not capacity).

    The incredible ranges of intelligence amongst the npcs obviously doesn't come through via dialogue. The pleasing exceptions are Edwin and Minsk, perhaps Sarevok.

  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014


    I surely wouldn't measure someone's intelligence by their IQ. In my view, intelligence encompasses not just one's analytical/logical abilities, which is the only thing IQ tests seek to measure, but also practical intelligence (the ability to adapt to one's environment), social intelligence and wit, expressive abilities, unconscious/intuitive modes of thought, creativity and probably even more. Besides IQ can even be trained, which brings it dangerously close to describing WIS rather than INT."

    Most of those mental faculties are actually correlated with IQ.

    In terms of creativity, composers, inventors and writers would generally do well on IQ tests.

    Social intelligence is more subjective, but I generally find that academically smart people are more genial and empathetic, and dim people are more prone to being intransigent and unable to see things from another's perspective. That certainly isnt true in all cases, there are nasty and socially awkward people who are academically brilliant, but there is a reason why the average IQ of the prison population is 87.

    Wit is actually rather strongly associated with IQ. The average IQ of comedians is well above average.

    And whilst IQ can be trained to a limited degree, it is 75% heritable amongst adults, which is to say, 75% of variation in IQ amongst adults is due to genetic factors. So IQ scores reflect innate ability much more than training.

    Post edited by RandyMcStud on
    meaglothAristilliusjackjack
  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    Most people that say they're smart are just average. They might be book smart or computer smart, but are they street smart or survival smart? Being smart at one doesn't suddenly mean you deserve a high intelligence score.

    How can anyone know how smart they are if they've never been tested outside a classroom? Remove a "genius" from their comfort zone and stick them in a high pressure situation, they'll fumble, stutter, and drool like everyone else. Most famous "smart" people were just average people with a crazy obsession.

    A truly smart person knows their limits, does work and hobbies they enjoy, and doesn't make the same mistakes. You know Einstein was married twice? To me that makes him pretty dumb.

    LeonEadwyn_G8keeper
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806

    Most people that say they're smart are just average. They might be book smart or computer smart, but are they street smart or survival smart? Being smart at one doesn't suddenly mean you deserve a high intelligence score.

    How can anyone know how smart they are if they've never been tested outside a classroom? Remove a "genius" from their comfort zone and stick them in a high pressure situation, they'll fumble, stutter, and drool like everyone else. Most famous "smart" people were just average people with a crazy obsession.

    A truly smart person knows their limits, does work and hobbies they enjoy, and doesn't make the same mistakes. You know Einstein was married twice? To me that makes him pretty dumb.

    So where is the chart correlating marital status with intelligence? I seem to have misplaced mine.

    FinneousPJelminsterDreadKhanjackjack
  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    @meagloth‌
    Do you really need a chart to know marriage is idiotic? It's an expensive, outdated event that always leads to ruin and misery.

  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
    "Oooh... buttunz!

    The King of intelligence dependent dialog was Fallout/Fallout/2. Here are examples of what INT=7 should actually look like:

    http://i.imgur.com/X1dP5.jpg

    (and this one dialog between two low-int characters)
    http://willooi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/21.jpg

    Mathsorcerer
  • TheGraveDiggerTheGraveDigger Member Posts: 336
    @meagloth‌
    You started it, buddy. And you know I'm right, marriage is impossible to defend in this day and age. The end.

  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited August 2014

    @meagloth‌
    You started it, buddy. And you know I'm right, marriage is impossible to defend in this day and age. The end.

    Actually, you insinuated that Einstein was dumb because he was married twice. That statement lead to @meagloth 's response. I wouldn't call that starting it. Your opinion is exactly that, an opinion. While you are entitled to it, I believe that marriage is not a science, whether it is viewed as a positive or negative thing in today's society.

    I apologize for my interjection and further derailing of this thread. Therefore I will make a constructive comment on the topic at hand.

    Intelligence has always been a valuable statistic to me, even as a fighter type class. For instance, a game I grew up loving, the MMORPG Everquest, if your Warrior (straight up tank, cannot cast spells, melee class) had a higher intelligence, they would learn their combat skills faster than one with lower intelligence. Skills like offense, defense, sword fighting, parrying, etc., all raised faster in combat if your character had a higher intelligence.

    I personally believe intelligence is a combination of your intellectual capacity and your ability to learn new things.

    For example, a person with 15 intelligence might have the same intellectual capacity as someone with 17 intelligence, but the differing factor is that the person with 17 intelligence is better at picking up new things. The 15 intelligence person may end up at the same level of intellectual capacity as the 17 intelligence person, but the road there would of been shorter and taken less effort for the 17 intelligence person.

    I hope that makes some sense to you guys. As always, just an opinion. Have a great day everyone.

    DreadKhansemiticgoddess
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    There is a big difference between a savant (aka extremely specialized interests/education) and an actual genius. DnD actually does a great job in 3rd ed of helping explain this... a savant engineer would have several closely aligned knowledge, profession and craft skills, and likely isnt dumb, but wouldnt really need more than 12 or 13 int to excel. Such an individual will be incredibly good in his field, but likely isnt terribly useful outside it. This is assuredly not genius, but it if your expertise is in a productive field, you can make a great living.

    A genius is different... think abberations like the ability to memorize an entire book word for word, incredible creative output (especially producing vast amounts of quality creative works, ie Mozart), or the ability to readily grasp very complicated physics in a fairly intuitive fashion. Anyone can memorize facts, but a truly intelligent person ties ALL facts and pieces of information together. Such people tend to be reasonanly charismatic, if not very, as they can better observe and understand others and how to influence them effectively.

    Basicly, a genius isnt someone merely really intelligent, they need all 3 mental ability scores to be at least good, if not exceptional. Edwin is smart, but he is not really a genius; his wisdom is probably RPed even LOWER than he rolled, same for his charisma. Both should be 6 or 7 really.

    As for the concept of marriage, its only bad as the worst person in a marriage. If either spouse is a bad spouse, you have issues. But marriage isnt the problem here, its the individual. Mohammed taught that a man can have as many wives as he can keep happy... note, if you cant keep ANY woman happy, you shouldnt have a wife! I can agree marriage isnt for everyone, but most people can definately be happy in marriage if they are with the right person and willing to put enough work into it.

    In the wisdom thread, I argued more or less that int and wis are fairly interchangeable; a low stat in any mental faculty will result in some stupid choices, even many, even if one score is high.

    Meanbunny
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Gee, I sure hope marriage isn't dumb ;)

    meaglothelminsterDreadKhanMeanbunny
  • LeonLeon Member Posts: 83
    I am intoxicated most of the time so i feel sometimes like orc worker. Its harder to work on improving mental capacity then training all of the other stats.
    Strength,Dex,Con- train about 6 7 times a week and have labour job 6 times a week- so i am all about ruining my body and then recovering to be better.
    Wisdom and Charisma by my opinion are gained after exposure to invironment,people,talks etc.
    If you live long,make mistakes,ask questions,improve upon your mistakes- you eventually gain wisdom.
    Same about Charisma- you talk with girls,learn how to flirt,how to hook person by compliment,how to develop conversation to your advantage- comes with time.
    Intelligence is the most hard stats to train.. in real life :) reading books doesnt necessarily increase you "memory capacity". I read a lot by on the other end i have trouble remembering things(herb). By D&D tests i usually get 10 which is.. like i dont read and learn at all.
    I am starting to thing intelligence is based more on high grade education(college,university) then.. books,street knowledge,nature knowledge etc..

    DreadKhan
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    @jackjack‌ wise men say love is blind, not dumb.

    But they also say that a happy marraiage is a blind wife and deaf husband, so maybe wisdom dictates caution? ;)

    @Leon‌ Intelligence and other mental faculties are totally capable of improvememts; we never completely stop brain development. However, think about training your body... its physically demanding and takes usually 6 months to a year to get real results. Beginners improve quicker due to the fact that they are in bad shape, but even an elite athelete should continue to improve slightly into their 30s, injuries aside.

    Training the mind assuredly isnt about just skimming novels. :s You need to read challenging materials, and rumminate a great deal. The best place to start this type of reading is looking into the classics, in part because they are legitimately very good, and in part because you can find lots of information about them to help interpret them. You'd have to be comfortable with rereading the same book a few times, hence finding very good books to work with is important. There are plenty of really legitimately good fantasy novels/series'. Try to do an initial 'blind' reading without any background to avoid spoiling things, and concentrate on deeper connections and interpretations in the subsequent readings.

    Sound like introductory university English? There is a reason. Its fun in the same way demanding excercise is. You mentioned herb and booze, right? Well, these are actually tools you can use... you notice different things while on them. But dont use tons... just enough to change your perspective a bit. Note, write down some observations that seem pretty profound if you're out of it. You really can make some interesting observations, but being out of it can certainly give misleading insights. I usually notice some interesting small stuff this way though.

    You can do similar things with music, movies or visual art, but books are the best and easiest to do this with. Most people learn the basics of reading this way in highschool, so you should be more comfortable with this. This type of regimen would involve wisdom and int mostly.

    jackjack
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    DreadKhan said:

    @jackjack‌ wise men say love is blind, not dumb.

    Training the mind assuredly isnt about just skimming novels. :s You need to read challenging materials, and rumminate a great deal. The best place to start this type of reading is looking into the classics, in part because they are legitimately very good, and in part because you can find lots of information about them to help interpret them. You'd have to be comfortable with rereading the same book a few times, hence finding very good books to work with is important. There are plenty of really legitimately good fantasy novels/series'. Try to do an initial 'blind' reading without any background to avoid spoiling things, and concentrate on deeper connections and interpretations in the subsequent readings.

    Sound like introductory university English? There is a reason. Its fun in the same way demanding excercise is. You mentioned herb and booze, right? Well, these are actually tools you can use... you notice different things while on them. But dont use tons... just enough to change your perspective a bit. Note, write down some observations that seem pretty profound if you're out of it. You really can make some interesting observations, but being out of it can certainly give misleading insights. I usually notice some interesting small stuff this way though.

    Watch Hamlet. and undertsnd it all. You will grow.

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,153
    Leon said:

    I am intoxicated most of the time so i feel sometimes like orc worker. Its harder to work on improving mental capacity then training all of the other stats.
    Strength,Dex,Con- train about 6 7 times a week and have labour job 6 times a week- so i am all about ruining my body and then recovering to be better.
    Wisdom and Charisma by my opinion are gained after exposure to invironment,people,talks etc.
    If you live long,make mistakes,ask questions,improve upon your mistakes- you eventually gain wisdom.
    Same about Charisma- you talk with girls,learn how to flirt,how to hook person by compliment,how to develop conversation to your advantage- comes with time.
    Intelligence is the most hard stats to train.. in real life :) reading books doesnt necessarily increase you "memory capacity". I read a lot by on the other end i have trouble remembering things(herb). By D&D tests i usually get 10 which is.. like i dont read and learn at all.
    I am starting to thing intelligence is based more on high grade education(college,university) then.. books,street knowledge,nature knowledge etc..

    @Leon‌ by any chance, do you look like this? ;) :P
    image
    (no offense meant--just a joke, since Leon from Blade Runner also worked carrying heavy things around, and your username...).

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    meagloth said:

    DreadKhan said:

    @jackjack‌ wise men say love is blind, not dumb.

    Training the mind assuredly isnt about just skimming novels. :s You need to read challenging materials, and rumminate a great deal. The best place to start this type of reading is looking into the classics, in part because they are legitimately very good, and in part because you can find lots of information about them to help interpret them. You'd have to be comfortable with rereading the same book a few times, hence finding very good books to work with is important. There are plenty of really legitimately good fantasy novels/series'. Try to do an initial 'blind' reading without any background to avoid spoiling things, and concentrate on deeper connections and interpretations in the subsequent readings.

    Sound like introductory university English? There is a reason. Its fun in the same way demanding excercise is. You mentioned herb and booze, right? Well, these are actually tools you can use... you notice different things while on them. But dont use tons... just enough to change your perspective a bit. Note, write down some observations that seem pretty profound if you're out of it. You really can make some interesting observations, but being out of it can certainly give misleading insights. I usually notice some interesting small stuff this way though.

    Watch Hamlet. and undertsnd it all. You will grow.
    Baby steps! I didnt suggest Chaucer... but despite the much more demanding language, Chaucer IS more accessible to most people. @Leon you might consider reading The Miller's Tale, from Canterbury Tales. Its a riot, and doesnt feel like people have changed 1 bit in nearly a millenium of English lit. Hint: the Miller is PROFOUNDLY ****faced.

    jackjack
  • LeonLeon Member Posts: 83
    CrevsDaak said:

    Leon said:

    I am intoxicated most of the time so i feel sometimes like orc worker. Its harder to work on improving mental capacity then training all of the other stats.
    Strength,Dex,Con- train about 6 7 times a week and have labour job 6 times a week- so i am all about ruining my body and then recovering to be better.
    Wisdom and Charisma by my opinion are gained after exposure to invironment,people,talks etc.
    If you live long,make mistakes,ask questions,improve upon your mistakes- you eventually gain wisdom.
    Same about Charisma- you talk with girls,learn how to flirt,how to hook person by compliment,how to develop conversation to your advantage- comes with time.
    Intelligence is the most hard stats to train.. in real life :) reading books doesnt necessarily increase you "memory capacity". I read a lot by on the other end i have trouble remembering things(herb). By D&D tests i usually get 10 which is.. like i dont read and learn at all.
    I am starting to thing intelligence is based more on high grade education(college,university) then.. books,street knowledge,nature knowledge etc..

    @Leon‌ by any chance, do you look like this? ;) :P
    image
    (no offense meant--just a joke, since Leon from Blade Runner also worked carrying heavy things around, and your username...).
    The name is Lion and i am not so skinny as this actor. I usually read about philosophy,nutrition,training,biographies and once in a while fantasy. Reading Ken Pollet Hornet Nest now, once finished i will ask for Millers Tale in library. I usually stop to read if i dont connect well to the material.
    war and piece by Tolstoy for example - 5 tomes, very detailed.. and boring somehow.
    Most people i know found Fridrich Nitche works to be madmen writings- i tend to like his view-points so i understand his methapors and examples.
    Its hard to connect to something which has.. no real connection to you. Even if you hear its a good book- you need certain attachment or connection to read finish and understand the writer\story.

    CrevsDaakelminsterjackjack
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    The problem I had with War and Peace was the huge introductory vits to each book... this didnt strike me as very good philosophy, and really belonged in its own book. His philosophy of history isnt really THAT bad, and fate is mainly hated by philosophers due to their distaste for the concept, and less because its really that improbable.

    I much prefered Dostoevsky, Trugenev (who had some funny thoughts about Tolstoy's moralizing in everything he writes), Chekov, etc. 19th century Russian lit is really a goldmine. I cant imagine a good reason why Lermontov's masterpiece, A Hero of our Time hasnt been made into numerous big budget movies. Pechorin is every inch the modern 'hero' today as he was then, warts, absurdities and general nastiness and all. He's almost heroic in the Greek sense.

    Its pretty accessible to a modern audience, unlike much older literature which requires more background on the era.

    jackjackEadwyn_G8keeper
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71

    @meagloth‌
    You started it, buddy. And you know I'm right, marriage is impossible to defend in this day and age. The end.

    At the risk of derailing the thread, how is it impossible to defend the form of relationship which delivers the best life outcomes on average to both the couple and any children they may have? And these arent trivial differences. Compare children raised in a marriage by biological parents to those raised by a single parent or even a cohabiting couple and the differences in a whole range of outcomes are very substantial.

    A good marriage is one of the biggest predictors of happiness for the adults also. Even amongst unhappy couples, the outcomes of those who stay together and work through their problems are significantly better than those who divorce.

    And its not just the individual families, it is the wider society. If you look at areas where there is a high rate of out of wedlock birth, they are typically poor and crime ridden. If you look at areas where the large majority of children are born inside marriage, they are generally safer and more prosperous.

    meagloth
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806

    @meagloth‌
    You started it, buddy. And you know I'm right, marriage is impossible to defend in this day and age. The end.

    At the risk of derailing the thread, how is it impossible to defend the form of relationship which delivers the best life outcomes on average to both the couple and any children they may have? And these arent trivial differences. Compare children raised in a marriage by biological parents to those raised by a single parent or even a cohabiting couple and the differences in a whole range of outcomes are very substantial.

    A good marriage is one of the biggest predictors of happiness for the adults also. Even amongst unhappy couples, the outcomes of those who stay together and work through their problems are significantly better than those who divorce.

    And its not just the individual families, it is the wider society. If you look at areas where there is a high rate of out of wedlock birth, they are typically poor and crime ridden. If you look at areas where the large majority of children are born inside marriage, they are generally safer and more prosperous.
    Despite my agree, this is not for this thread, thank you. Take it to the politics thread. Take it to the politics thread calm and respectfully, please.

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