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To those who are about to be taught...

2

Comments

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    I try not to blame teachers, I know they have hard jobs and little compensation, and their trying to do something good, but sometimes it's hard not to kill the messenger:/
    I'm sorry.

    AnduinlolienJuliusBorisov
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Yes. Basic fundamentals of knowledge still need to be taught.

    lolien
  • kaguanakaguana Member Posts: 1,328
    Anduin said:

    Yes. Basic fundamentals of knowledge still need to be taught.

    But it should be taught in a way that fit the student not in the way it is now, maybe it fit some of them but mostly it miss a lot of the students, I know because it never fit me and I had a really hard time studying at school / uni, but I did it from share will and hard work.

    AnduinCrevsDaaklolienJuliusBorisov
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    For all the Americans on this thread who are concerned about educational policy, I highly recommend the documentary Waiting for "Superman". It follows about 5-6 different children, from very different backgrounds, as they attempt to gain admittance to a charter school (done through lottery). Its an interesting look on how special interests and adherence to the status quo are harming the educational system and how trying new things, creating a system of accountability and giving more options to concerned students and parents might help improve things.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_"Superman"

    Here is a trailer

    elminsterlolienrufus_hobartJuliusBorisov
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    edited September 2014
    Loved the trailer. But the rankings are squiffy. They are based on a test carried out on random children in the system. America and the United Kingdom have a higher percentage of immigrants who cannot read the questions. Whilst Finland and the east asian countries hardly have any...

    Stupid tests get stupid results. However. Americans are damn confident as the bmx kid proved!

    EDIT: Tests and polls of our own education system clearly show results getting better, better than previous generations over and over, repeatedly. They then can pull a poll out from businesses and show its a load of crock... Statistics only serve an agenda in a qualitative service such as education and prove little.

    Post edited by Anduin on
    rufus_hobartCrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,145
    Anduin said:

    EDIT: Tests and polls of our own education system clearly show results getting better, better than previous generations over and over, repeatedly. They then can pull a poll out from businesses and show its a load of crock... Statistics only serve an agenda in a qualitative service such as education and prove little.

    I am ashamed (even if I am unable to feel shame, lol) to say that the very different thing is happening on my country. Public education was pretty good here 40 years ago, but now it's crap, because kids don't study, and because the government pays very little to teachers, so they tend to decide to stay home instead of teaching the stupid kids that even if the teachers teach them don't study.

    AnduinJuliusBorisov
  • simplessimples Member Posts: 539
    tutored a poor indian kid today, teaching college tomorrow.. being out of a job and getting "freelance" gigs is alright i guess

    Anduin
  • simplessimples Member Posts: 539
    i just watched that trailer and it pissed me off. then again, the american educational system often does.

    when i teach kids, the most important thing is their well-being, results are secondary to me. i want to see them enjoying learning new things and that's how they improve, not by arbitrary "results" and "tests", that even the brightest kids can fail at.
    for the most part i agree with skeptics that the school system doesn't always work for everybody, but we try to and apart from a few cases, we do succeed.
    underpaid and underappreciated, but at least we have that

    kaguanaNonnahswriterlolienJuliusBorisov
  • simplessimples Member Posts: 539
    edited September 2014
    we all know we're just in it for the holidays anyway

    edit- it's funny though, how the jobs with the most responsibility are the most underpaid (nurses for example).. and underappreciated. i don't really have a problem with students, they tend to enjoy the way i teach, parents, not so much. parents have become huuuge c***** in the last couple years let me tell you.
    and the next time i hear someone say "oh yeah it's easy for you to say you're tired, you have all summer to sleep in".... i'm not even going to finish that sentence because this is a pg something rated forum

    lolienJuliusBorisov
  • kaguanakaguana Member Posts: 1,328
    I got something to say about parents, it not about all of them but some, I don't know if most (but friends that are teachers and kindergarten teacher tell me and from what I see I think it true), just don't bring up their children, they always busy with their own life jobs and pay little attention to their kids, they not teach them so much how to behave and to respect the elders, they mostly let the system outside to do it and it is wrong, and even if they have time with their kids they don't know what to do with them.

    I'm not saying it all parents but a lot of them are like that, and when their kids is doing wrong in school and the teacher try to do something they complain about the teacher, or they seem something not to their liking they complain even if the kids benefit from it.

    Sorry got a lot of thinking about this wrong system and the way thing going on in it.
    simples said:

    we all know we're just in it for the holidays anyway

    edit- it's funny though, how the jobs with the most responsibility are the most underpaid (nurses for example).. and underappreciated.

    Hoo don't get me started there.

    lolienJuliusBorisov
  • simplessimples Member Posts: 539
    edited September 2014
    if mum and dad aren't around, they need to find a way to sort of connect with their children and make them feel like they care about them, you know?

    bottom line- i teach 6-12 year-olds mostly and it's more like parenting than teaching sometimes. and (no this is not racist, just an observation) turkish boys are the *censored* worst.

    Post edited by simples on
    lolien
  • lolienlolien Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,083
    At time i'm neither learn, nor teach. But i have a wife, who is teacher and two children, whom will go in school in a couple of years. So i'm particularly concerned in education, and the fact is, that i'm interested too. My problem with education: we have pretty well documented researches, that the current education system is really bad, and the reasons are well-known too. There are even good experiments, how can we change things, and build a better system. Still the current system rules, however there are some institutions or teachers here and there, whom adapt new ways. At least here in my country, but i think, that this problem could be there in other countries too. So, when i can find these documents, read it, and get the conclusion with my limited knowledge in the theme, why can't the persons, who are responsible for the education development?

    The most likely answer:

    image


    So the biggest problem with the current system, at least in my opinion, that we teach abstractations for the children, despite practical skills. Even at practical subjects, like art and music, people can spoil the fun of learning for kids with dry facts. Don't misunderstand, Michelangelo and renaissance are important and interesting, but children must move, create and play first. Together. Not writing tests, and doing homework. Later they will ask from everything on their own. Children love to learn, if they can choose what to learn, and can play in the process.


    image


    The teachers could change things, but many people, who would like to teach and would be a good teacher, choose another career for better salary. For this teachers will be less competent persons, who don't really like/can teach or deal with children, but don't have another opportunity.

    So:


    image


    However, fortunately parents have the option to choose between institution, and even teacher in some degree. If they care, because people don't need any qualification or licence to be parents.


    image


    Somehow i meet with mostly normal people (at least they seems normal, but maybe i'm normal too from another person's perspective, so this can be misleading) everyday, so yey!

    kaguanaNonnahswriterbooinyoureyesJuliusBorisov
  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187
    edited September 2014

    Being able to memorize and recall things isn't being made obsolete by internet. That's a common misconception. The fact is, memory is still very important, and not least because it's a way to train your brain ;)

    Memory is less important than the skills to ask good questions. This has always been the case, but emerging technology only makes it more important.

    Almost everyone in an industrialized nation carries around a device with them that can access nearly the total sum of all human knowledge - all they need to is be able to ask the right question and parse the results for nonsense (religion and other anti-knowledge, mysticism, woo, etc).

    Right now, 'thinking machines' are MUCH better than people at *remembering* things. People are only better at knowing what information is relevant to dynamic situations, though this probably will not remain true for many more decades.

    The processes of accessing and, even more so, developing new knowledge are what our schools are systematically failing to teach. At the end of my public education in the US, had I not been primarily an autodidact, I would not have understood even the basics of the scientific process. I know most of my peers did not, and most (even the college graduates) still do not.
    CrevsDaak said:

    ... overdosed with sugar ...

    sugar does not cause hyperactivity. [ref][ref]

    kaguanameagloth
  • kaguanakaguana Member Posts: 1,328
    edited September 2014
    Also remembering stuff not always come from memorizing thing, it about using the thing you learn in a daily basis, or doing something with them, because not everyone remember thing just by reading them or by try to memorizing them or writhing them down a million times, there is a lot of ways to learn to remember thing and again each person have his own way to remember, I can tell you all that I remember almost nothing from the time I was in school, hell I almost remember nothing from high school, I just don't use that knowledge so I don't remember it.

    A lot of student forget after they have exams so what the point in it anyway ? if they don't find it interesting and not remembering it after the exam is over, and if they will wanna know something about something they can always go to the internet today, so they way of learning lots of stuff to an exam that after that they will forget about don't have a lot of meaning now days.

    @enneract‌ you can just edit your post you know, you can quote few at a time.

    lolien
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    edited September 2014
    @simples‌ I'm enjoying your posts. Are you by any chance German? If so please can you annotate your edits for the english speaking audience that find swearing offensive. We have some younger posters posting here who may find the thought of a teacher swearing just way too much. I may literally scar their fragile brains before they go to bed and play GTA Vice City or some such...

    Teachers as role-models for society and all that jazz...

    Also... "I have found my pedagogy pushed to the limits when teaching males of a turkish descent..." Heck. Use the word frustrated if you have to, but don't say a group is worse than any other please.

    *Anduin re-reads posts*

    You know sometimes you start a thread, and you have no realisation on where it is going to take you...

    lolienkaguanaJuliusBorisov
  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187
    edited September 2014
    Anduin said:

    ... If so please can you annotate your edits for the english speaking audience that find swearing offensive. ...

    Can you please annotate your post for those of us who find requests for censorship offensive?

    I would link Episode 10, Season 2 of Penn & Teller's wonderful program 'Bullshit!', but the copyright mafia has made that difficult.

    CrevsDaakJuliusBorisov
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    *sigh*

    It's not about censorship. I fully endorse your right to swear mightily and cuss all you like. This is a thread about ... I'm not sure what its about to be honest. But if their is no need to offend, why offend?

    If the thread was something like the vagina monologues I would probably ask you to continue spout more wisdom from your lips.

    But its not @enneract‌ ;)

    Now. Can we be friends again.

  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187
    edited September 2014
    Anduin said:

    *sigh*

    It's not about censorship. I fully endorse your right to swear mightily and cuss all you like. This is a thread about ... I'm not sure what its about to be honest. But if their is no need to offend, why offend?

    If the thread was something like the vagina monologues I would probably ask you to continue spout more wisdom from your lips.

    But its not @enneract‌ ;)

    Now. Can we be friends again.

    I think you missed my point. I'm not attempting at pedantry. I genuinely find that you called someone out to change a word - not because you had a problem with their ideas, but the existence of that particular word - offensive. I find it *at least* as offensive as you or your hypothetical 'younger reader' might find that word. Now, what makes your offense, or their offense more important?

    The phrase 'turkish boys are the fucking worst' is ethically repugnant because of the racism, not the word 'fucking', and you singled out the word, not the idea. THAT is disgusting.

    If you are going to throw 'wisdom' around about how teachers are supposed to be 'role-models', why don't you start with genuinely useful egalitarian principles like 'ideas are offensive, not words'?

    (Additionally, if you cannot define what the subject of this thread is supposed to be about, why do you think that I should be able to, or that I should be beholden to any vague concept of what it isn't?)

    DauntJuliusBorisov
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    How about 'offense is taken, not given'.

    AnduinCrevsDaak
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    @enneract‌ I asked him to change that sentence. Nicely.

    I even pointed out what was wrong with that sentence. Nicely.

    The swear word in itself was not singled out. I did try to make it humorous... Maybe I failed.

    I did ask the question if the poster was German. In Germany swear words are not seen as taboo and are used more often. A night out in Berlin is a colourful affair! But that is there culture, not mine. And I cannot be bothered to judge, unlike yourself.

    In my culture, they are offensive. Although I think if you scan my posts you will find the odd word with a well placed * within it.

    Could you respect my culture please.

    The forum rules state we should be awesome to each other.

    Sorry if you dislike the idea that people find some words offensive. But they do. I find it doesn't make them bad people in general.

  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187
    @Anduin‌

    I don't want you to feel backed into a metaphorical corner, here. I'm told that I often come off as abrasive due to my directness; to be clear, I am not trying to judge you.

    The point that I am attempting to make is that many things are offensive to many people - there is no objective measurement for 'offensiveness'. Respect for culture is found in inclusiveness, not in divisiveness. You are not entitled to cultural 'respect' in terms of others avoiding offending you, you extend cultural 'respect' by being conscious of your own chauvinism.

  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    *sigh*
    Yesterday my history teacher took me aside and asked me why I wasn't in an advanced class. I explained to him that it was basically because of my handwriting, and he said I should talk to the counselor about moving up, because I looked completely bored in class.
    So today I was in the counseling office and basically I can(probably, nothing's for sure yet) choose between moving up and switching teachers or staying where I am. If I move up I'll get a better group of students, maybe even some people I know, which is a big part of the problem in my current class(I have a hard time dealing with idiots), but supposedly the work load is a lot more and based on my record I may or may not be able to keep up, or rather, catch up. It's a bit late for switching; almost two months into the year.

    If I stay I'm pretty sure I'm guaranteed an A, but that class is completely boring. Today we wrote haikus and phonetically translated them into hieroglyphics; basically we did a cypher with Egyptian looking symbols instead of numbers.
    Yay for practical skills, right @lolien‌?

    The thing is an A class isn't an honors class. For those unfamiliar with the u.s. system, an honors class B pretty much equals a normal class A, and C=B, and so forth(that's watered down but whatever).
    But with the 'advanced' classes, you don't get that automatic extra boost, you just get more homework(though I think there might be an opportunity for that extra boost if you do even more extra work) And the class moves faster.
    Which is all very great and such but technically I'm very bad at school. I'm pretty smart(and according to the tests I'm very smart, but I take things like that with a grain of salt. Try to, anyway) and I love learning, but I hate work, and worse, being told what to do.
    So actually *doing* things is an issue.
    And it's not like intellect counts for much anyway. (Hehe, I just misspelled "intellect") I find in school it's not usually the very bright kids that succeed in the mainstream, but the somewhat bright kids who are smart enough to understand but dumb enough not to work ahead, along with being able to just sit down and so as they're told.
    Then there's that top 2% of kids who are smart and know when to sit down and shut up. These are labeled "gifted" and sent off to their choice of Ivy League schools and various other expensive looking programs and careers by their successful parents.
    I don't like to talk about those kids.

    Ugh. I'm babbling again. The point is, I don't know what to do. When the schoolpeople say a class is "very hard", "challenging", or "difficult", I never can know if I believe them. Sometimes it actually is.(German and programming) sometimes it's total bullshit(advanced chemistry and algebra). I guess that depends on my level of interest though, so I can't really blame them. Honestly I kinda wish it hadn't come up, cause now I have this problem. I didn't even know I could do this. But I have to hand it to my teacher, he really is paying attention. At first I though he was going to be terrible(he's a 300lb wresting coach who prefers yelling and brash humor, I'm a 120lb academic who prefers whispering and not-potty jokes) but he's actually a pretty good teacher and a nice guy, and I can't blame him for his class. He's got to keep everyone going, not just me, and to be fair, a lot of these kids can't pronounce "hieroglyphic".
    I can blame this on my geography teacher though. She was *---censored---*. Some of my other issues really are my fault; This one's all her.
    :/

    enneractkaguanalolienJuliusBorisov
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    :)

    @enneract‌ , I didn't mean to cause a back lash from you, or anyone.

    Please reread my post that caused your first 'abrasive' post.

    I actually had to think very carefully about it.

    My following posts not as much.

    Totally agree with the inclusiveness, as a teacher you need to make comprimises do give the best deal to everyone in the classroom. I teach many faiths. I know this.

    If someone tells you they are offended, and asks for a small and easily achievable change, how should you react?

    Include me please. I don't want to miss out because of the easily editable, or *, words.

    How many films, songs have been lifted to a 15 just because of unsuitable words? And this is a 12A forum I believe (I could be wrong, don't take as fact)

    I think their is room for comprise that will not put high demands on anyone and allow inclusion.

  • enneractenneract Member Posts: 187
    edited September 2014
    @meagloth‌ - Unless you are planning to go ivy league (and have a family that can pay for it), HS grades don't actually matter very much. The only exceptions to this are classes which can transfer to your local university. If you are a minority or from a very low income family, you will get significant scholarships unless your grades are absolutely awful. If you are white, male, and from a family that isnt significantly below the poverty line, you won't get significant scholarships (other than pell & state grants) regardless of how good your grades are.

    The important thing to get out of high school is actual knowledge and skills, not letters on a piece of paper. Especially if you are going into a STEM field (and not academia), knowing your shit is what counts, not where your fancy piece of paper is from. Only liberal arts careers care about the pedigree of your education, with real careers, the degree just gets you the interview.

    @Anduin‌ I'll agree to discontinue this line of conversation, if that is what you are asking. I fundamentally do not agree *with* you (and HIGHLY encourage you to watch that particular episode of Bullshit!, if not the entire series, to further grasp my perspective on this), but I do agree that continuing this discussion is fruitless.

    lolien
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    edited September 2014
    @meagloth ... Take the challenge. Do it.

    My class are doing hieroglyph translations. They are 8. (Okay we do too much Egyptians in my class)

    You can achieve so much more.

    And think how you will feel at the end.

    Your current class is like that hill you go up to get to the shops. No one cheers you or congratulates you on reaching the top. Its just a hill...

    Now that other class sounds like that mountain over the horizon... People have died climbing it. But they will climb it because they can say to themselves "I did it" and be proud.

    Hmmm... Its late over here. I need sleep.

    EDIT: @enneract‌ OKAY.

    meaglothkaguanalolienJuliusBorisov
  • kaguanakaguana Member Posts: 1,328
    @meagloth‌ You should do what best for you!

    Don't go up to another class if it isn't suit you, but don't hold back on it if the class you are in now is boring you and you feel like it a waste of time, as for homework, well who like homework??? but seriously I don't think it will be much of a problem for you to catch up with the class, true it will be a bit of work at the beginning but at last it won't be boring it will be a challenge to catch up to the class.

    I say make a list of the advantages and disadvantages of being in each class that will help you see what is better for you.

    AnduinlolienJuliusBorisov
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Boredom and inaction dulls swords and minds to uselessness in my opinion...

    (This is NOT an excuse to use a sword when carving up the Sunday roast...)

    lolien
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