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Baldur's Gate Gamble/Tactics

kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
I just made a search on the forum and i didn't find anything as this idea so lemme expose it.

I played FF12 some time ago, i just remember this now and something there that i found very interessing were the gambits, in fact the gambits are a successful implement in Dragon Age 2 too, with the name of Tactics. Both vary in each game but the objective are the same, a semi-controled AI for the party members.

What are the Gambles/Tactics/ They're AI slots that each NPC has, so you can configure a single action.

Ally: Shar-Teel < or = 50% life, Action: Cure serious wounds spell.
Ally: Self < or = 50% life, Action: use minor healing potion.
Enemy: Hasted, Action: slow spell.

I really don't care much if this idea will have place on Baldur's Gate or no, i would use this if the implement come to be made, but i'm from the old school and i like to pause the game to take my decisions, however to make the game a little more versatile, this idea can come in hand.

On FF12 you had to buy the gambles to use them with skill points, the same in DA:O. But in Dragon Age 2 you gain a x number of gambits per level (and based on the class if i remember well to).

This can make some new customers with ppl that don't know baldur's gate and please some of the hardcore gamers here (making possible a no pause game if ppl use the AI well), but i will play the game with or without this implement.

AntoniLexSpjuv3rnCorvinojunk11

Comments

  • wbouvywbouvy Member Posts: 33
    This would certainly be more interesting than the 'take it or leave it'-AI scripts currently available to the party, even if it's just a simple rule to allow party members to automatically drink potions.

    However, you would need a lot of rules to get your party members to act intelligently, which might add a lot of complexity both to the interface and the handling of these rules. An alternative would be to allow multiple scripts to be selected and provide a lot of small scripts; this would be a less customizable option that would provide approximately the same feature.

  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 905
    I suppose the mechanic is already there to do so through the contingency spell. And I agree that the request is one which might be tied to the scripting system.

  • ShrimpShrimp Member Posts: 142
    I never use the AI scripts, but it sounds like an interesting idea (even though I probably wouldn't use it either). Maybe, to lighten the interface a bit, they could just use a "priority" system, like:
    - prioritize survival and healing (I'm sure the AI is able to determine by itself what spell or potion to use without the need to complicate the interface too much)
    - if an enemy starts casting a spell, stop whatever you are doing and attack him instead. Healing is still more important.
    - if you don't have anything better to do (meaning, higher in the priority list), attack the same enemy than party leader.

    That's just an example, but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. You have a limited set of possible actions, and you just arrange them in the order you want, like in Tales of Innocence.

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Well, I think enemy AI also has a priority list for stuff to do (I don't remember if its in BG or IWD but I could swear I've seen enemies quaffing potions or healing themselves), so at the very least they could just allow us to program AI for playable characters.

  • ShrimpShrimp Member Posts: 142
    True, enemies can use healing pots by themselves, and some mods give them pretty advanced AI. For example, Rogue Rebalancing makes most enemy thieves use VERY annoying hit-and-run tactics: they start in stealth, come and backstab you, as soon as you hit them they quaff an invisibility potion and run away, use a healing pot, and come back, still invisible, to try and backstab you again and again (I once ctrl-Z'd one to see how many he had, I think it was 5 or 6 of each). Not to mention Renal Bloodscalp himself being a mage/illusionist and (ab)using Mislead. Yep, good times.
    I think the Tactics mod also gives enemy casters a pretty good AI, able to analyze which protection spells you have on you and use spells you're not protected against.

    ... so hum, yeah, it seems the game itself allowed quite advanced AI scripts. I don't know how the ones for your party work (again, I've never used them) but it could be a good idea to make us program our own. And then it'd be Ragnarok Online all over again with the homunculus/mercenary scripts, not that I'd complain.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    I believe a tatic/gamble implement would even help modders later to create neutral and hostile NPCs, what i'm asking in fact already exist, it just not a usable tool ingame, any AI is by nature the implement i described. Making of it a simplified tool would help players (so we would not pause often) and modders too.

    By the way this is not a new request, but an improvment of the scripts that already are in the game.

  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    Already lots of modder-made custom AI script, probably some that even use Detectable Spells. Isn't that what you're asking for?

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    edited June 2012
    In fact no @Lansounet, i'm asking for something near the Final Fantasy XII or Dragon age AI, a open script that is used even as ingame implements (in Final Fantasy XII for example the Gamble is mixed with the game abilities and must even be brought ingame as in Dragon Age, and in Dragon Age 2 you gain more options of Tatics (same as Gamble) for each level up based on your class.

    So what i'm asking is something that has already been done in other games and had sucess.

  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    I haven't played either of those, but I'm trying to read hard what you're asking for and

    Ally: Shar-Teel < or = 50% life, Action: Cure serious wounds spell.
    Ally: Self < or = 50% life, Action: use minor healing potion.
    Enemy: Hasted, Action: slow spell.

    That is already possible with modded content and AI scripts (although casting healing spells in combat is rarely efficient) you can cover pretty much any situation

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    edited June 2012
    Yes, that's possible i believe, but for mods, what i want is a system made, allowing the character to configure it in his/her gameplay. I didn't understand your post in a point:
    You told that this implement already exist in mods or that shoud be made in a unofficial mod?

    Anyway i think it's too messy to make a system like this in a mod fashion (a recipe for bugs in my view, this system must review most of the AI options of action).

    The introduction of this FAQ from gamefaqs explain suffice of the FFXII gambits: http://www.gamefaqs.com/ps2/459841-final-fantasy-xii/faqs/42021

    For the Dragon Age Tatics, there's a wikia link here: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Tactics

    As i said it's a feature that already has proved itself in other renowned games.

  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    I mean with stuff that's already been developped, like the famous Detectable Spells that most tactical/AI enhancing mods out there use, you could make up some AI scripts for your party members allowing them to check for various stuff, and react accordingly. It can even be so cheesy that your AI scripts could detect things you shouldn't be able too (Is this creature immune to charm/confusion/etc... > don't use these spells; party member #3 is "Held" > Use remove paralysis on member #3; my hp is lower than 75% > use potion of healing; my hp is lower than 50% > use potion of extra healing)

    You can add as many checks as you want for a single action : range/hp/current state/class/ pretty much anything really.

    Gonna have a look at those links now, to make sure I'm not missing your point completly ^^

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I think what kamuizin is asking for is an in-game menu with a very user-friendly interface for programming AI.

    FFXII's system, for the most part, was really great.

  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    edited June 2012
    Ok that's what I was missing, even though @HeroicSpur mentionned it with the contingency menu reference >< Well I don't think it can be made that easy when you can potentially check for a thousand conditions to trigger one action. There are already some great fan-made AI scripts available, even for unmodded games (thinking about Xyx's party scripts on SHS)

    Addendum : It's actually quite feasible I guess but you would only get 1-5 conditions maybe for 1 action, whereas AI script can do a lot more

    Post edited by lansounet on
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 365
    edited June 2012
    I'm baffled that people are disagreeing with this idea; anything is better than the joke pre-packaged unconfigurable AI-scripts that you get with the game now.

    I'm not sure it should use a tactic/gambit system verbatim, but it should start off with that as a base. I think there should be an in-game user-friendly interface for configuring AI behaviour. The ones in FFXII and Dragon Age were a bit restricted.

    Here's a feedback improvement off the top of my head: instead of having a tactic for such-and-such % hp, you have a single one for N hp, and there's up and down arrows (or a field you can type the figure into) to change the hp, and alongside that in the description it shows what that percentage would be in real HP for the character you're currently applying it to.

    It's the little things that make a nice interface.
    I suppose the mechanic is already there to do so through the contingency spell.
    Not really, contingency has no casting delay.

    Post edited by caruga on
  • iLexiLex Member Posts: 20
    edited July 2012
    A better AI script system would be a great addition to the game in my opinion, especially when it comes to telling party members NOT to attack in certain situations (no ammo or spells for example) or other situations where anyone with half a brain wouldn't do what your party members seem to find very normal.

    However, a script will miss nothing. What I mean is that if you have an "on enemy=hasted" in the script, the party member with the script will always detect a hasted enemy for you even if you missed it.
    For example: In a complex fight you, as the player, might have missed that one fighter that chucked a haste potion and then almost killed your mage and severely hurt your priest. After 2 rounds of chaos you find out he's hasted, you dispel and end up winning the fight. A script would end his haste right after he drank the potion, making the fight a lot less memorable.

    A counterargument to this would be that as a player you are alone and the party consists of 6 people, who would in the real world think with 6 separate minds, not just the one of the player :) A Script in that sense helps to get closer to reality.

    In short I think that scripting shouldn't be too powerful, but a bit better scripting could surely add to the enjoyment of the game.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    For another view we can pause the game, that's already unfair by far (but necessary), a beter AI interface would help us to have a more active game with less pauses to act, giving a more in depth game experience.

    As i told in other posts, i don't have a problem with pauses, but today to adapt to the new needs of our time, a best game flowing can give us a new perception of baldur's gate playability.

    Taking in fact that no huge change will happen on the game graphics or bases, what probally gonna be a negative point when compete with other actual games on the market, a good game flow joined with the awersome plot that already exist could balance this, giving BG:EE more competitiveness in the market.

    @TrentOster, i know you're a busy person and can't look to each feature request in this forum, but can you or other member of the Team BG:EE evaluate and say if this is a viablle feature?

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    edited July 2012
    I find that I have to micromanage my casters & rogues a lot in BG1 & BG2, while the "Standard attack" script ensures that Melee can look after themselves. There are already scripts in place, but you can't specify your favorite spell combos or avoid using a spell you're saving for later. The ability to make your own scripts might make NPCs a bit more independent.

    I was thinking along the lines of Dragon Age's system, where you can prioritise a series of actions based on HP, enemy proximity etc. It wouldn't even necessarily need to be integrated into the main game, a little .exe that creates a script for you to drop into the appropriate folder could work just as well. I'm not a programmer or modder, so I'm not sure of the practicality of it though.

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Merged this request since they seem to be about the same thing.

    inwe
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    @Corvino some of the existing scripts to battle behavior in fact are bugged, take the thief script for example, if you put the script to hide in shadows, the game will force the hide in shadows even when the option is unavaliable, making a lame way to get in shadows more often.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    edited July 2012
    Tanthalas, thanks for moving my post, I didn't automatically associate the thread title with AI when I scanned the forum.

    Oh, and @kumuizin, I entirely agree with you about the vanilla scripts. Standard attack was the only one that was really useable because of its murderous simplicity. Casters and rogues demanded micromanaging (or better scripts).

  • PlasticGolemPlasticGolem Member Posts: 98
    In Dragon Age, the tactics scripts worked -- just barely and only on the lower difficulties -- because party members couldn't actually die (just fall down until the end of the fight), there were only a small number of spells/powers, and because there was no real resource management in that you didn't really have to save spells and other consumables for future battles. Even so, there were too few slots to create very flexible tactics scripts, and putting area of effect spells in a script was disastrous. Baldur's Gate has too many different spells and powers to manage using that kind of script, relies too much on area of effect spells like fireball and web, and has a resource management component that means you can't just go automatically firing off your most powerful spells when you run into a group of five goblins and still expect to handle the tougher enemies you will undoubtedly find further in.

  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    @PlasticGolem but a lot of the mundane stuff like self buffs or simple debuffs on the strongest enemy in the area would be useful. The number of times I've had to click AoF/DUHM/bless/chant on a priest or various mage buffs is astronomical. And with appropriate triggers (ie On enemy detected Strong or above -> cast chant on self) it could be used to conserve spells appropriately. This of course relies a bit on the ability of the game to discriminate stonger enemies, casters, clustered enemy groups etc.

    Also, tactics scripts like this could be used to increase party member survival, drinking potions at 25%-50% HP and so on. They wouldn't necessarily be all-encompassing, but even a relatively simple Dragon age style system could cut down the repetitive minor bits of casting and let us concentrate on the big picture.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    @PlasticGolem, as i told in the begin os this forum Final Fantasy XII has his script interface too, the "Gamble". Anyone that played final fantasy before know that probally it's the game with the greatest number of spells skills (no matter which of the "final fantasy" game you play, all of them have a HUGE number of spels/techniques).

    I don't believe that a huge option of actions gonna be a problem if the work made is good.

    Ps: FFXII EVERITHING could have a script, to use items, spells, techniques and a lot of other things. I just want a battle script interface for BG, a lot simpler.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    Bump? a month and half has passed and with so much new members i would like to discuss this thread again :)!

  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    I hated the AI interface in DA:O and DA2. It is extremely clumsy, and in case of baldur's gate with a lot more spells per spell caster it would be even clumsier.

    If this is implemented, instead of configuring individual conditions, I'd rather it be simply balancing between categories of actions. Such as deciding the order of: Buff, Heal, Debuff, Offensive, etc. Something far more simplified than simply making GUI for current scripting, which is pretty much on the level of DA games.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,680
    DA:O is an example of friendly interface configuration for AI. Just as Final Fantasy XII.

    I don't intent to copy those works, but use them as a base to make Baldur's Gate own friendly interface for AI.

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