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archer and +4 arrows

mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
edited November 2014 in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
hi,
i know it is discussed over and over again.
i just wanted to know, if anything was implemented, so that archers can now hit targets, that are only hittable by +4 weapons. (with bows of course)
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  • SedSed Member Posts: 790
    edited November 2014
    Nothing has been done as far as I know :)
  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
    Sed said:

    Nothing has been done as far as I know :)

    damn... then i just can't decide what to try next...
    but thanks for the answer.
  • SedSed Member Posts: 790
    Bows are generally lackluster in BG2.. especially compared to BG1.
    It's a shame really.
  • velehalvelehal Member Posts: 299
    You can always use short bows and Gesen.
  • RonnaannRonnaann Member Posts: 48
    Well there goes my plan for an all archer party... eh, would have been kinda stupid anyway.
  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
    velehal said:

    You can always use short bows and Gesen.

    i thought the problem was, that you need +4 arrows to be possible to hit every enemy, and not a +4 bow...
    and the gesen (as far as i know, doesn't generate +4 arrows)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    mahe4 said:

    velehal said:

    You can always use short bows and Gesen.

    i thought the problem was, that you need +4 arrows to be possible to hit every enemy, and not a +4 bow...
    and the gesen (as far as i know, doesn't generate +4 arrows)
    The spears of lightning it fires when an arrow isn't equipped on it count as +4 weapons when determining if it can hit certain enemies.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Firetooth is better! Upgraded of course.

    You can also go slinger.
  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
    elminster said:

    mahe4 said:

    velehal said:

    You can always use short bows and Gesen.

    i thought the problem was, that you need +4 arrows to be possible to hit every enemy, and not a +4 bow...
    and the gesen (as far as i know, doesn't generate +4 arrows)
    The spears of lightning it fires when an arrow isn't equipped on it count as +4 weapons when determining if it can hit certain enemies.
    really?
    cool i didn't know this.
    well that changes everything for me...
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    I would also suggest the Item Upgrade mod by Weimer, which lets you be able to make a Longbow called "Teleomortis". It's basically a +4 longbow version of Short Bow of Gesen, but instead of lightning damage it has a chance to confuse targets instead.
  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
    GamingFreak said:

    I would also suggest the Item Upgrade mod by Weimer, which lets you be able to make a Longbow called "Teleomortis". It's basically a +4 longbow version of Short Bow of Gesen, but instead of lightning damage it has a chance to confuse targets instead.

    i want to play without gamechanging mods.
    the only mod i use is the ones that came with bpseries.
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    Well it's not like it's game-breaking or anything, or alters the game into something else entirely. It just gives you extra weapons and items you can create and make stronger; it made several magic items that normally would have lost their value important and valuable again.

    But if you have to have it that way, just settle for Firetooth or Gesen I guess. Vanilla Archers forever without a viable Longbow due to Arrow issues. :/
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,847
    Arrows of Piercing are supposed to count as +4, but they're bugged at the moment and only count as normal weapons. I used NearInfinity to change them back to +4 weapons.

    Not counting external modding utilities like that, I think your only choice is to use the Gesen shortbow.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited November 2014
    Flashburn said:

    Arrows of Piercing are supposed to count as +4, but they're bugged at the moment and only count as normal weapons.

    I know they give +4 to THAC0, but I don't think that necessarily means they're supposed to hit as a +4 weapon. And they currently have a +1 enchantment level, at least in BG1:EE.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited November 2014
    TJ_Hooker said:

    Flashburn said:

    Arrows of Piercing are supposed to count as +4, but they're bugged at the moment and only count as normal weapons.

    I know they give +4 to THAC0, but I don't think that necessarily means they're supposed to hit as a +4 weapon. And they currently have a +1 enchantment level, at least in BG1:EE.
    Other than Jerrod's Mace they are the only weapon in the game that I can think of whose Thac0 bonus (including Thac0 bonus against certain creatures) doesn't correspond to its enchantment level. It never made any sense that they didn't get treated as +4 arrows when determining what they can hit. Especially given that Acid Arrows (which get a +1 Thac0 bonus) and Arrows +1 are treated as +1 weapons (and so on and so forth up to Arrows +4). Thac0 bonus is already used to determine enchantment level when it comes to arrows.

    But you are right that in both BGEE and BG2EE they are considered to be +1 weapons for determining what they can hit.

    To the OP. Regarding +4 arrow access

    I believe Mercy Whitedove has +4 arrows in the Black Pits 2 that you can steal from her. Otherwise there aren't any. You can always console (or ideally EEKeeper) them in. Their code is OHAROW50.
  • mahe4mahe4 Member Posts: 60
    elminster said:

    TJ_Hooker said:

    Flashburn said:

    Arrows of Piercing are supposed to count as +4, but they're bugged at the moment and only count as normal weapons.

    I know they give +4 to THAC0, but I don't think that necessarily means they're supposed to hit as a +4 weapon. And they currently have a +1 enchantment level, at least in BG1:EE.
    Other than Jerrod's Mace they are the only weapon in the game that I can think of whose Thac0 bonus (including Thac0 bonus against certain creatures) doesn't correspond to its enchantment level. It never made any sense that they didn't get treated as +4 arrows when determining what they can hit. Especially given that Acid Arrows (which get a +1 Thac0 bonus) and Arrows +1 are treated as +1 weapons (and so on and so forth up to Arrows +4). Thac0 bonus is already used to determine enchantment level when it comes to arrows.

    But you are right that in both BGEE and BG2EE they are considered to be +1 weapons for determining what they can hit.

    To the OP. Regarding +4 arrow access

    I believe Mercy Whitedove has +4 arrows in the Black Pits 2 that you can steal from her. Otherwise there aren't any. You can always console (or ideally EEKeeper) them in. Their code is OHAROW50.
    wait... the item is already implemented, but just nowhere to get in the game from anyone?
    in other words it would be extremely easy to just insert them into the game?
    why don't they just do it then?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    mahe4 said:

    elminster said:

    TJ_Hooker said:

    Flashburn said:

    Arrows of Piercing are supposed to count as +4, but they're bugged at the moment and only count as normal weapons.

    I know they give +4 to THAC0, but I don't think that necessarily means they're supposed to hit as a +4 weapon. And they currently have a +1 enchantment level, at least in BG1:EE.
    Other than Jerrod's Mace they are the only weapon in the game that I can think of whose Thac0 bonus (including Thac0 bonus against certain creatures) doesn't correspond to its enchantment level. It never made any sense that they didn't get treated as +4 arrows when determining what they can hit. Especially given that Acid Arrows (which get a +1 Thac0 bonus) and Arrows +1 are treated as +1 weapons (and so on and so forth up to Arrows +4). Thac0 bonus is already used to determine enchantment level when it comes to arrows.

    But you are right that in both BGEE and BG2EE they are considered to be +1 weapons for determining what they can hit.

    To the OP. Regarding +4 arrow access

    I believe Mercy Whitedove has +4 arrows in the Black Pits 2 that you can steal from her. Otherwise there aren't any. You can always console (or ideally EEKeeper) them in. Their code is OHAROW50.
    wait... the item is already implemented, but just nowhere to get in the game from anyone?
    in other words it would be extremely easy to just insert them into the game?
    why don't they just do it then?
    Beats me. Since Arrows are already pretty gimped (since they lack a damage bonus) you'd think they would have gone up to +5 since all they really offer is better Thac0 and the ability to hit a handful of extra enemies.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    Kinda agree, bows don't get bonus damage from STR either. It seems it's all balanced around the Archer, as that kit's bonus damage is basically the only way to keep things competitive. But yeah, not having high enchantment level ammo really sucks :(
  • mement0mement0 Member Posts: 105
    edited November 2014
    mahe4 said:

    elminster said:

    TJ_Hooker said:

    Flashburn said:

    Arrows of Piercing are supposed to count as +4, but they're bugged at the moment and only count as normal weapons.

    I know they give +4 to THAC0, but I don't think that necessarily means they're supposed to hit as a +4 weapon. And they currently have a +1 enchantment level, at least in BG1:EE.
    Other than Jerrod's Mace they are the only weapon in the game that I can think of whose Thac0 bonus (including Thac0 bonus against certain creatures) doesn't correspond to its enchantment level. It never made any sense that they didn't get treated as +4 arrows when determining what they can hit. Especially given that Acid Arrows (which get a +1 Thac0 bonus) and Arrows +1 are treated as +1 weapons (and so on and so forth up to Arrows +4). Thac0 bonus is already used to determine enchantment level when it comes to arrows.

    But you are right that in both BGEE and BG2EE they are considered to be +1 weapons for determining what they can hit.

    To the OP. Regarding +4 arrow access

    I believe Mercy Whitedove has +4 arrows in the Black Pits 2 that you can steal from her. Otherwise there aren't any. You can always console (or ideally EEKeeper) them in. Their code is OHAROW50.
    wait... the item is already implemented, but just nowhere to get in the game from anyone?
    in other words it would be extremely easy to just insert them into the game?
    why don't they just do it then?

    I have been playing an Archer (the ranger kit) for the past months. I am now at the 4th level of Watcher's Keep and also have took out of the way the first 2 Bhaalspawns.

    Based on my experience so far it was mostly in BG2:EE that I needed more +3 arrows. There were times were +3 arrows were not available and my THAC0 was not enough to take down an enemy with the melee weapon I am proficient. This of course was being solved by the party front-liners, but still it was annoying.
    I am not getting deep enough in the rules to know if there was an enemy in BG2:EE that required +4 arrows, however in ToB and specially in Watcher's Keep level 3, +3 arrows were useless against a variety of demons, forcing me to attack with my two +3 katanas. The thing is that in ToB you mostly experience the so called epic levels during which your THACO is insane even with your second choice weapon. So no problem there. One might actually think that this is a balance thing as it forces you to use all your characters abilities and weapon proficiencies.
    BG2:EE however is another story.
  • ShandoShando Member Posts: 147
    Made an archer, hm i must say dat with all the nerfing stuff bows from bg 1, bow is still useful wepoens against strong enemies. and if needed a archer can easily wield 2h strong wep.
  • ThraxxThraxx Member Posts: 67
    mahe4 said:

    hi,
    i know it is discussed over and over again.
    i just wanted to know, if anything was implemented, so that archers can now hit targets, that are only hittable by +4 weapons. (with bows of course)

    You can always use shortbow of gesen, it automaticly shoots +4 arrows. it's also the best bow in the game (including Xbows).
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,428
    I'd point out that to my knowledge, only Demiliches and Annath (who isn't worth fighting) need +4 weapons anyways, so +3 arrows are good enough for most anything else. And those are not that hard to come by in TOB.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    The TOB end boss and bonus boss also require +4 weapons, so it's pretty important.

    But yeah, the unloaded Shortbow of Gesen is great. Not only does it hurt things that require +4 weapons, it also hits for melee piercing damage instead of ranged damage, so it can hurt things that are otherwise immune to ranged weapons. Basically, it's your archer's best friend.
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    @Abi_Dalzim Also if u decide to go the evil path, and kill everyone in Ust Natha(Soulaufein, Phaere, Ardulace and Lesser Demon Lord), u need +4 weapons for the demon.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    Yannir said:

    @Abi_Dalzim Also if u decide to go the evil path, and kill everyone in Ust Natha(Soulaufein, Phaere, Ardulace and Lesser Demon Lord), u need +4 weapons for the demon.

    If you are talking about the one summoned by the drow then you need +5 weapons for that demon.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,428
    It's not really worth it anyways, I'm pretty sure 70K Quest XP from helping Adalon is better, and it's an order of magnitude less work.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    True, but sometimes we like making life hard for ourselves, just because we can. Either way, physical damage is not how you're gonna kill that guy.
  • schreierschreier Member Posts: 79
    Why do you say Gesen is better than Firetooth?
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    Short Bow of Gesen +4 (1d8+2)
    Effects: +4 THACO, adds 1d8 electrical damage to arrows -or- fires 1d8+2 damage lightning bolts without ammo

    Firetooth +5 (1d8+5 Damage)
    Effects: +5 THACO/Damage, +1d2 Fire Damage, If the Crossbow is unloaded, fires 1d8+5 damage Fire Bolts.

    The thing is the Gesen has 2 APR while the Firetooth has only 1. Taking this into account, without HLAs or hasting spells the Short Bow of Gesen is considered better.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Slight correction @bengoshi: The loaded shortbow of Gesen adds +2 physical damage as well as +1d8 lightning damage. It's a very strong weapon when loaded.
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