Should rules be consistent between the current EEs?
Would you like to see rules made consistent between the EEs? Specifically in regards to spell descriptions where spell duration changes between each game which is a turn off for anyone trying to learn what spells do. Spell lists could also be included. I am NOT suggesting to add HLAs - keep that to another thread.
- Should rules be consistent between the current EEs?39 votes
- Yes, make the rules as consistent as possible30.77%
- Yes, make spell descriptions consistent but don't add IWD spells to BG12.82%
- Yes, add IWD spells to BG but keep spell differences25.64%
- No, leave the games as they were intended25.64%
- No, leave the games as is, furthermore, remove BG spells from IWD.5.13%
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Comments
In terms of backporting IWDEE feature into BG I would vote for having options. To me, the main thing is that anyone could set his own features in the menu. Something like:
Want automatic max HP on level up - you can do it in the game settings.
Want IWD spells in BG - you can do it in the game settings.
Want sneak attacks in BG - you can do it in the game settings.
And so on. This is the only way to make everyone happy.
As for the certain spell effects I vote for leaving BG spells effects to act as they have done previously. For e.g., the Emotion spell in BG2EE now acts as it does in IWDEE - making enemies sleep till they're hit. This looks strange in BG, I think.
Questions would have to be raised like
Would Dispel Magic remove protections without concern for character levels (like it does in IWDEE) or would it do it based on character level (not making it based on level would have a pretty big impact on game balance in BG2EE). Alternatively given that enemies in HoF gain a lot of hit dice having it so that it is based on levels in IWDEE would make Dispel Magic a lot less useful for multi-class characters in HoF.
Would Protection From Fire grant 80% fire resistance (IWDEE) or total immunity (BGEE/BG2EE)?
Would Free Action work as it does in IWDEE (haste friendly) or BGEE/BG2EE? (not haste friendly). Changing this would mean they've have to change back all the free-action related items they just spent all this time trying to make consistent.
Would Insect Plague affect an area and not be party friendly (as it does in IWDEE and PnP) or work like it does in BGEE/BG2EE? (party friendly).
Would Fire Storm bypass magic resistance still? (it doesn't in IWDEE) and would it having a saving throw to take half damage? (it does in IWDEE)
Would Sunray work like it does in IWDEE (lasts 4 rounds, doesn't do as much instant damage and doesn't allow a save to auto-destroy undead) or how it does in BG2EE (lots of damage initially, may auto-destroy undead).
Would Creeping Doom act like it does in IWDEE (big swarm of summoned creatures that attack as though they have normal weapons, which would be useless against a lot of enemies in Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal) or as it works in BG2EE? (Improved BG2EE styled Insect Plague).
Would Earthquake act as it does in IWDEE (party friendly, doesn't work on characters with 10 or more hit die, doesn't work on flying/floating creatures, doesn't work on huge creatures) or how it works in BG2EE ? (does a lot less damage but works on a lot more enemies and has a much greater save penalty for enemies trying to save against it)
In BG2EE as well spells that do improve with level (Dispel/Remove Magic being a rare exception) cap out at level 20. In IWDEE spells cap out at level 30 (which is also the level cap for classes). Should BG2EE spells be made to cap out at level 30? 40? (clerics and bards both can legitimately make it to level 40 in BG2EE).
These are just a handful of examples of the conflicts involved here (I haven't finished listing out divine spells and I haven't even touched mage spells) and I foresee a lot of people coming out of it either way unhappy.
It also begs the question of who gets access to what spell. If there is going to be consistency between the games spells then consistency should be made with who can cast what spells. While I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people were in favour of specialist wizards now only having one opposite spell school in Icewind Dale EE, I wonder how many would be in favour of Clerics in Baldur's Gate 2 no longer gaining access to Sunray (which would be consistent with how Icewind Dale handles it), or how many would be in favour of Druids no longer having access to Dispel Magic (consistent with Icewind Dale). In cases of conflict between the games you could give either class access to any conflicting spell, but it still means someone has to spend the time to go through and identify them all.
Certainly incorporating Icewind Dale spells and abilities that aren't found in BG is one of the more requested changes that have appeared on the forum in the last few years, so if this could be made as an option (like "cleric ranger spells" is) then that would be good. But I generally think that trying to make spells between the games work consistently would introduce a lot of problems.
yeah they should. imo almost all iwd rules are superior and they should be ported to both BGs.
However, I will never be against providing choices. Ideally there would be a situation like @bengoshi proposes in which people have the ability to decide for themselves how consistent the games would be.
1.1) better in BG1&2:EE, can be ported to IWD:EE
- Dispel based on level
- no save (vs. half) for Fire Storm
1.2) better in BG1&2:EE, can NOT be ported to IWD:EE without change
- none (so far)
2.1) better in IWD:EE can be ported to BG1&2:EE
- 80% fire resistance (Protection From Fire)
- non-party-friendly insect plague
- magic resistance protects from magical fire (Fire Storm)
- Creeping Doom, way cooler; "improved Insect Plague" is over the top and repetitive
- unlimited spell power progression for those spells that cap out at lvl20 in BG2:EE (that means 40 for a bard)
2.2) better in IWD:EE can NOT be ported to BG1&2:EE without change
- Earthquake, neater in IWD and size considerations are a very cool concept but the absolute 10 HD limitation is bad. some adjustment could be made for BG (for example, huge and >10 HD creatures only receive damage, no other effects)
I do notice that in many cases the weaker version of the spell from the alternate game would address a spell being to powerful in the other game.
I also notice that the stronger version of some spells would see a spell being useful where it wasn't before.
I would, of course, like for spell descriptions to be clarified, such that people can easily identify what exactly a spell does. The EEs have already made great strides towards that, but it's still rarely obvious, for example, whether or not a spell is party-friendly.
While spell duration sounds trivial it was actually the stimulus for this thread as it effects buff order, priority and refresh rate which is really tedious to keep track of when it's changing depending on what game you load up.
It's really not about end results being the same, it's about superior prevailing over inferior regardless of which game it originates from. What i argue is that the *end result* is going to be an almost identical (maybe even completely identical) spell list, and that IWD spell variants will mostly take over because they're usually better.
That's just my opinion, no need to get into meta-discussion here.