Stat restrictions
elminster
Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
I know this may not be the most popular position to take, but would it be possible to make more restrictions on the level of stats characters are allowed to have?
I mean doesn't anyone else think that it is ridiculous that anyone can have 3 intelligence? I mean, assuming that 9-10 intelligence is normal intelligence (and admittedly I don't know the intelligence most people you run into in the game have), 3 intelligence would imply that you are severely mentally dysfunctional. I get that by making your character have such low intelligence you can add to other stats, but realistically how many random people do you run into in the game with such abysmal scores?
I mean doesn't anyone else think that it is ridiculous that anyone can have 3 intelligence? I mean, assuming that 9-10 intelligence is normal intelligence (and admittedly I don't know the intelligence most people you run into in the game have), 3 intelligence would imply that you are severely mentally dysfunctional. I get that by making your character have such low intelligence you can add to other stats, but realistically how many random people do you run into in the game with such abysmal scores?
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If that 3 Strength character had 18 Constitution would he exhaust himself that fast?
I think intelligence is the only one that really bugs me, for obvious reasons. As some of you have pointed out there are more serious penalties for having lower strength (carrying capacity) and constitution (health) in the game. There is one serious consequence to having lower intelligence in baldur's gate 2, apart from Lore. But it is only if you want to go to one specific area of the game (which I won't go spoiling for anyone). Wisdom and Charisma are also not particularly essential either, although at least Minsc I know won't join your party if your party leaders charisma is too low and a low charisma means lower experience gained from completing quests. Both of which can be basically ignored by having someone else as leader. Anyways, I think either some kind of restriction placed on especially the bottom limits of stats, or a journal rewrite based to some degree on intelligence would be cool (the latter of which would require much more effort I would imagine).
About charisma. It's not that importan, but I think that party leader, and later a great hero shoul have just a little charisma. Values like 3 are laughable at best.
I doubt this would be implemented into actual game, thought.
So in short, we just need those stats to actually do something and this would become a non-issue.
Yeah it would be great if BG3 had a fallout like system relating to interactions and intelligence.
@pacek
''I think if you put a 3 in intelligence, all the game's text should be gibberish. Should make for interesting playthrough! Likewise a 3 in Charisma absolutely no one - not even Imoen at game start - should want to talk to you.''
That would be awesome.
It would be awesome if the game actually responded to your INT score, like Temple of Elemental Evil, Fallout or Arcanum (Silly guy scares me!). There is no way I would have lowered it to such abysmal levels if all dialogue would have made me sound like an orc / the village idiot, even back then. Still, rewriting all PROTAGONISTs dialogue options would take.. quite some time... perhaps as a mod project? Wouldn't it be fun to sit and rewrite old classic dialogue and "stupify" it? :P
Gorion: "Ah, my child I am glad I have found you"
PROT: "What be dis about Pa? Why we be rushing to leave?"
Gorion: "There is no time to explain, gather your belongings and let's go!"
PROT: "Me no understand, what harm us in here? Walls is big!!"
Having int affect stats is probably the best we can hope for from BG:EE. That said, What are the exact PnP rules for int in 2:nd edition?
"This ability gives only a general indication of a character's mental acuity. A semi-intelligent character (Int 3 or 4) can speak (with difficulty) and is apt to react instinctively or impulisvely. He is not hopeless as a player character (PC), but playing such a character correctly is not easy. A character with low intelligence (Int 5-7) could also be called dull-witted or slow."
An interesting thing about the mechanics for low *charisma* score is that it strictly limits the number of henchmen you can have (which is the closest PnP equivalent to NPCs). People with charisma 3-4 can have one, 5-6 can have two, 7-8 can have three and so on. There are also mechanics for the loyalty of said henchmen.
I will quote the relevant passages for other ability scores if you like, but I'm typing this out from a physical copy so I'll only do it on request
The PnP rules for charisma could probably be implemented in BG without too much hassle, but the problem is the game was designed with a 6-player party in mind for the default difficulty (making low charisma characters less viable).
No need to quote the other ability scores m8, thanks for offering tho
Just as different races have different bonus, to constitution, strength etc. I always considered that different sex should also have differences. So The idea is --something like this-- Female (-1 to Str) (-1 Con) (+1 Wis/Dex) (+ 2 Charisma). A female can still be as strong as a man but not as strong as the strongest which is a reality. I have this idea ever since I played d&d for the first time.
While you could "arguably" justify the penalties to STR and CON (personally I'd hate it if this were implemented), I don't see how the bonuses to WIS and CHA can be justified. A bonus to DEX would make more sense.
But again, I really hate it when games shoehorn females as casters and males as physical brutes.
"Females of the Realms can excel in any area they wish, and are easily the equals of their male counterparts in every skill or respect."
I think that's how it should be. There's nothing saying that a woman cannot be as strong as a man, and besides even the small difference in humans (which tends to be overstated anyway) would not neccessarily carry over to other races. We already know that gender roles on Faerun aren't the same as Earth's medieval history. Who's to say that Dwarf women are on average any less strong than Dwarf men? D&D has moved on a lot from the sexism of first edition, and I really don't want to see it return in BG:EE.
Also, you might not want to let Shar-Teel know what you said, I have a feeling she'd have some words
I'am not talking about d&d rules. I'am speaking about NATURE and as mammals we follow certain rules.
Muscle Strength and Power (shapefit.com/exercise/men-vs-women-exercising)
men vs women exercisingFemales, on average, have less total muscle mass than males. As a result, maximal strength measures as well as maximal power measures (power = force/time) are reduced. Gross measures of upper body strength suggest an average 40-50% difference between the sexes, compared to a 30% difference in lower body strength. So, what about power? Maud and Schultz compared 52 men and 50 women, all roughly 21 years old using a maximal power test on a bicycle ergometer. Their peak power was about 60% lower for the females when comparing absolute values. Although, the men were heavier.
@Communard I know that Quote quite well. but it just looks like the "don't want problems with feminists" solution. It's good only to avoid "discrimination" or sexism, etc. But realisticaly male and female have different attributes.
And you also miss my point. I never said that there can't be HUGE / Strong female fighters (like Shar-Teel). IT can and there are. There is NO sexism here only species observation.
You could say the same is true for the opposite situation.
None would underestimate strength of women, have they ever sparred against them in karate dojo. I know what I'm saying - I still feel that kick on my head
I'am not trying to change d&d rules anyway, keep it as it is. But scientifically there is no way to deny it (it's called hormones).
What I really didnt want is "you say that because you're attracted to women" or talks about "sexism" I'am not discussing any of those subjects nor I want them associated with stats in a game. You're acting the typical shocked purists. But morrowind had those differences (it's no DRAMA!) and they are correct imo, maybe it isn't convenient but don't make it look like a stupid/sexist thing.
As for the strength debate, you admit that a woman can be as strong as a man, so why not just let it be? Adding a -2 would essentially make it impossible to play a well-balanced female fighter, which is absurd given the huge number of female warriors we meet in the game. It's clear that on Faerun a female warrior is not viewed as strange (in fact the only place with institutionalised sexism in the game is probably Ust Natha).
I played NWN with a very low intelligence half-orc and found the change in dialogue incredibly funny, but to implement this in BG:EE, someone would have to take the pain of writing a complete alternate dialogue set. Certainly not as much work as a complete translation in some other language than English, but still quite some time to invest. But I'd like, if anyone was willing to do this.
LOL!