I loved ToEE, but don't remember 'That' much spell component stuff. I remember Identify costing gold, but not the CON hit. Boy my memory must really not be what it once was. But I do remember the encounters being rough, particularly early on.
I think there must be somewhere between what BG did and what you are describing. I'd have no problem with a 'spell component' pouch, that, for certain spells, drained gold as a surrogate for spell components. That might work, even with the proliferation of gold in the BG series. However, in my view, Wizards SHOULD be gods at higher level, or almost so. At low levels fighters rock the game. At mid/high levels Wizards should (and do) get that back. I'd be against borking them to much.
Identify in PNP is worthless ON ADVENTURE. Its one of those spells you can only use when you're safe at home. But most DMs I knew were a little more lax about lore than the computer is. Especially for things like potions, scrolls, ammunition. In most games I played, once you'd seen something like that you could probably identify more of the same with no spell. Although some DMs could be VERY tough on this sort of stuff. Usually those were the games everyone quit after a month or two. But I have seen the very strict, hard scrabble sort of adventure play very well on occasion.
Well the thing is, unless the magic item in question is mass-produced in lots, such as like the how the red wizards do things, each item is a hand-crafted piece, and even two items for the same purpose can be very different in design.
I loved ToEE, but don't remember 'That' much spell component stuff. I remember Identify costing gold, but not the CON hit. Boy my memory must really not be what it once was. But I do remember the encounters being rough, particularly early on.
I think there must be somewhere between what BG did and what you are describing. I'd have no problem with a 'spell component' pouch, that, for certain spells, drained gold as a surrogate for spell components. That might work, even with the proliferation of gold in the BG series. However, in my view, Wizards SHOULD be gods at higher level, or almost so. At low levels fighters rock the game. At mid/high levels Wizards should (and do) get that back. I'd be against borking them to much.
It kind of makes sense though as it makes high level wizards the perfect quest givers as it's simply cheaper in opportunity cost for them to outsource their needs to adventurers rather than wasting valuable resources and possibly years of their life accomplishing it themselves.
Well the thing is, unless the magic item in question is mass-produced in lots, such as like the how the red wizards do things, each item is a hand-crafted piece, and even two items for the same purpose can be very different in design.
Something as mundane as a +1 sword or set of armor should be unique enough in craftsmanship and emanating enough magic to be easily identifiable as 'low level' magic to anyone sensitive enough to pick up on the emanations. Unless you are playing in a VERY low level campaign where every single item of magic is rare and specially crafted, 'average' magic items should be pretty easy to peg.
Even in The Hobbit, 'Sting' and the other blades found in the troll hoard were easily identifiable as magic, without knowing their specific lineage (other than that they were elvish in nature).
Oh don't get me wrong, it's very possible, and even a part of the rules for simple modifiers, like enhancement bonuses or an item that procs an effect to be identified through use, though it does take time to do so.
Basically, each property would have a % chance to be discovered based on the likelihood of the character noticing it when the property would have an effect. Such as every time the weapon proc'd an effect there would be a chance for your character to discover it's activation condition, where as every hit or swing would have a small chance to reveal it's enhancement bonus since you're less likely to notice a mild improvement in the heat of battle. Or weapons with defenses abilities would have a chance to be discovered when hit with an appropriate attack.
Though weapons with activated functions would almost never be discovered or even known about unless identify was used to reveal it's command words/activation triggering conditions.
Hell unless an item falls into the 30% that glows in some fashion, you shouldn't even be able to distinguish a magical item on sight without using detect magic to even identify an item as magical in the first place.
And then you have weapons that are simply very finely crafted, but aren't actually magical, which you could mistake for magical, such as Yoshimo's katana. Though weapons of that type never have more then a +1 bonus.
As far as detecting magic, it is far more than 'Does it glow'. In the first place, magic of+3 or above are supposed to glow 100% of the time. It's only the lower magic items being more prolific that nets out to the 30% that you were quoting.
And in order for an item to be magical, it has to have a level of manufacturing significantly higher than your average soldier's blade. That in itself can usually determine if something is magic. Not 100% guarantee, it's true but it reduces the odds considerably because the number of non-magical weapons that someone went to that level of crafting for is probably pretty small. Then there is the fact that most magic enchantments are bonded through runes. You find a 'VERY' nice blade with elven runes in it, you are very probably holding a magic weapon.
Then there's the balance test. The effect of magic translates into some kind of increased function. That function doesn't magically start workiing once you cast Identify. For weapons, balance and weight will be far superior, as will damage and durability. Simply swing that sword thing at a door or a chair and any seasoned warrior would be able to tell if it were normal or not. Likewise, armor would be tougher to mar than normal. You get the idea, the properties OF the magic would represent in most cases. They don't magically turn ON only once you know specifically what they are.
And then there's age. Normal weapons decay over time. You find a dragon hoard that has remained untouched by anyone but the hamfisted dragon and a normal weapon will dull and rust. Magic items, on the other hand are going to stay sharp and shiny.
Yes, it is possible that you encountered an exquisitely crafted, 'ancient' yet perfectly preserved, blade with 'magical' runes along it's blade, that can make mince meat of an iron bound door with no trouble and it still might not be magic. But this increasingly improbable item would be even rarer than a magic item in my experience.
And this is in essence what a Bard's ability is all about, knowing what to look for. Not to mention the fact that most of the DM's that I played with allowed for Magic Users to have an eerie affinity with anything magical.
And at the end of the day, most of the magic items in the campaign my DM ran were single function anyway. +1 sword. +2 Shield, Boots of frost resist. It was a once in a lifetime event to encounter something with more than one enchantment, and then it would be a quest item where we knew what we were looking for. But even if they were more common, again they would represent in many different ways that someone who knew what they were looking for would be able to identify.
Where it all breaks down though would be wants and staves. However, they usually are what wizards research is all about.
I'm not saying that this is the way the DMG read, I am merely saying that if you look the tiniest bit beyond the rules, there are any number of reasons why Identify isn't the only way to figure out if that long sword is magical or not.
Wow, you guys are putting a lot more thought into this than I think the subject deserves. In most games I played "Detect Magic" was sort of a freebie spell, virtually every party has easy access to it from pretty early in their careers. That makes the initial looting process pretty easy (take the magic and other valuables, leave the rest). Some items may be obvious what they are. Others will be identified over the course of several days off between adventures. I've only ever seen a DM make a big thing of it for very new parties, or very special magic items. I think this sort of administrative sorting out details (is this sword +2 or +3?) gets pretty boring, pretty fast in an adventure game. Again, there are exceptions, but I would not normally make a big thing of identifying all the items once the party is no longer "in the field".
@atcDave - Oh, I agree. I was just providing some more flavor to the background that I thought would help flesh out the concept. At the end of the day, although we were a low magic campaign, we never had a hard time figuring out what magic we did get.
I loved when we didn't have nothing to identify magic items and potions, and we were forced to try and hope for not too bad effects. Me: "I try to put on this ring.... Very carefully. If I feel something strange I quickly take it off (no one ever really believed this could save him.....)" DM:... Me: "Am I still alive?" DM: "Yes!" Me: " fiuuuuuu!!!! Do I feel anything?" DM: "nope." Me: "shit!" Me: "Can I take it off?" DM: "yes." Me: "YESSS!"
You were happy not because you found a powerful item, you were happy just because you found a not cursed item. Maybe one day you'll even use it!
Comments
I think there must be somewhere between what BG did and what you are describing. I'd have no problem with a 'spell component' pouch, that, for certain spells, drained gold as a surrogate for spell components. That might work, even with the proliferation of gold in the BG series. However, in my view, Wizards SHOULD be gods at higher level, or almost so. At low levels fighters rock the game. At mid/high levels Wizards should (and do) get that back. I'd be against borking them to much.
But most DMs I knew were a little more lax about lore than the computer is. Especially for things like potions, scrolls, ammunition. In most games I played, once you'd seen something like that you could probably identify more of the same with no spell.
Although some DMs could be VERY tough on this sort of stuff. Usually those were the games everyone quit after a month or two. But I have seen the very strict, hard scrabble sort of adventure play very well on occasion.
Even in The Hobbit, 'Sting' and the other blades found in the troll hoard were easily identifiable as magic, without knowing their specific lineage (other than that they were elvish in nature).
Basically, each property would have a % chance to be discovered based on the likelihood of the character noticing it when the property would have an effect. Such as every time the weapon proc'd an effect there would be a chance for your character to discover it's activation condition, where as every hit or swing would have a small chance to reveal it's enhancement bonus since you're less likely to notice a mild improvement in the heat of battle. Or weapons with defenses abilities would have a chance to be discovered when hit with an appropriate attack.
Though weapons with activated functions would almost never be discovered or even known about unless identify was used to reveal it's command words/activation triggering conditions.
Hell unless an item falls into the 30% that glows in some fashion, you shouldn't even be able to distinguish a magical item on sight without using detect magic to even identify an item as magical in the first place.
And then you have weapons that are simply very finely crafted, but aren't actually magical, which you could mistake for magical, such as Yoshimo's katana. Though weapons of that type never have more then a +1 bonus.
And in order for an item to be magical, it has to have a level of manufacturing significantly higher than your average soldier's blade. That in itself can usually determine if something is magic. Not 100% guarantee, it's true but it reduces the odds considerably because the number of non-magical weapons that someone went to that level of crafting for is probably pretty small. Then there is the fact that most magic enchantments are bonded through runes. You find a 'VERY' nice blade with elven runes in it, you are very probably holding a magic weapon.
Then there's the balance test. The effect of magic translates into some kind of increased function. That function doesn't magically start workiing once you cast Identify. For weapons, balance and weight will be far superior, as will damage and durability. Simply swing that sword thing at a door or a chair and any seasoned warrior would be able to tell if it were normal or not. Likewise, armor would be tougher to mar than normal. You get the idea, the properties OF the magic would represent in most cases. They don't magically turn ON only once you know specifically what they are.
And then there's age. Normal weapons decay over time. You find a dragon hoard that has remained untouched by anyone but the hamfisted dragon and a normal weapon will dull and rust. Magic items, on the other hand are going to stay sharp and shiny.
Yes, it is possible that you encountered an exquisitely crafted, 'ancient' yet perfectly preserved, blade with 'magical' runes along it's blade, that can make mince meat of an iron bound door with no trouble and it still might not be magic. But this increasingly improbable item would be even rarer than a magic item in my experience.
And this is in essence what a Bard's ability is all about, knowing what to look for. Not to mention the fact that most of the DM's that I played with allowed for Magic Users to have an eerie affinity with anything magical.
And at the end of the day, most of the magic items in the campaign my DM ran were single function anyway. +1 sword. +2 Shield, Boots of frost resist. It was a once in a lifetime event to encounter something with more than one enchantment, and then it would be a quest item where we knew what we were looking for. But even if they were more common, again they would represent in many different ways that someone who knew what they were looking for would be able to identify.
Where it all breaks down though would be wants and staves. However, they usually are what wizards research is all about.
I'm not saying that this is the way the DMG read, I am merely saying that if you look the tiniest bit beyond the rules, there are any number of reasons why Identify isn't the only way to figure out if that long sword is magical or not.
Just sayin...
Me: "I try to put on this ring.... Very carefully. If I feel something strange I quickly take it off (no one ever really believed this could save him.....)"
DM:...
Me: "Am I still alive?"
DM: "Yes!"
Me: " fiuuuuuu!!!! Do I feel anything?"
DM: "nope."
Me: "shit!"
Me: "Can I take it off?"
DM: "yes."
Me: "YESSS!"
You were happy not because you found a powerful item, you were happy just because you found a not cursed item. Maybe one day you'll even use it!