Star Wars Philosophy According to D&D - Are the Jedi Really Druids Rather Than Pallys?
BelgarathMTH
Member Posts: 5,653
Hi, I was just having some random thoughts about the Jedi Knights from Star Wars, as related to the D&D world, that I find interesting.
Most cross-SW/D&D fans think of the Jedi as paladins, clerics, or mage-fighters of lawful good or neutral good alignment. But, I was just thinking of a lot of quotes from the source canon that could lend weight to the idea that the Jedi are actually druids of neutral alignment.
One of their most famous quotes is "For a thousand years, the Jedi protected peace and order in the Galaxy." But, what if we substitute the word "balance" for "order"? Then it becomes, "For a thousand years, the Jedi protected peace and balance in the Galaxy."
With that substitution, a lot of other quotes, especially those from Ben Kenobi and Yoda, start to make a lot of sense as compared to D&D druid philosophy:
"You were supposed to bring Balance to the Force, not plunge it into darkness!"
"He's (your father, Darth Vader) more machine than man, now, twisted and evil!"
"Is the Darkside stronger?" "No...easier, more seductive."
"How will I know the Darkside?" "You will know...when you feel calm...centered...at peace..."
This interpretation of the Jedi Knights as druids with neutral alignment also makes more sense of Obi-Wan's actions in the films, that is: He consorts willingly with criminals and lawbreakers when it suits his mission of ensuring "balance", and he cares about rules and "laws" only when it suits his mission for "balance". All the Jedi masters are also seen to be rather ruthless in their enforcement of what they see as "the balance."
My idea, for me, also allows me to see a lot of Luke's and other Jedis' actions through a new lens. Luke prefers to enlist native, natural life for his ends (Ewoks and Wookies, for example), and also is sympathetic to an extreme to AI technology that most closely resembles humanity (Artoo and Threepio). The Jedi in general have a broadly thematic distrust towards technology and machinery, especially technology and machinery that is given social and governmental primacy, considering it "uncivilized" or "unnatural" ("...A more civilized weapon, for a more civilized time...")
So, maybe the Jedi are actually druids with neutral alignment, not paladins, clerics, or fighter-mages with "lawful", "good", or "evil" alignment. (Although, the Sith say things like "Together we can...restore ORDER to the Galaxy!", So maybe the Sith qualify as lawful or neutral evil.)
I'm interested in thoughts about this from other cross SW/D&D fans. I'd like the thread to evolve naturally to all aspects of cross SW/D&D "philosophy" if there's interest and inclination in such a discussion.
EDIT: Btw, there are some things about the druids in the various D&D games that also can be used to interpret druids as Jedi:
1) Druids get special weapon scimitar, and the Flame Blade spell. In NWN2, only druids get the Flame Weapon spell, which is very powerful. (Lightsabers?)
2) Druids' animal companions and summonses, (like especially Insect Plague) in the various computer games can play into the idea of Luke's "use" of Ewoks and animal-like artificial intelligences.
3) Druids' general aversion to attack magic fits fairly well. Call Lightning uses the natural environment, not Darkside anger like Lightning Bolt. Healing and defensive spells like Iron Skins also fit very well with Jedi "philosophy".
Most cross-SW/D&D fans think of the Jedi as paladins, clerics, or mage-fighters of lawful good or neutral good alignment. But, I was just thinking of a lot of quotes from the source canon that could lend weight to the idea that the Jedi are actually druids of neutral alignment.
One of their most famous quotes is "For a thousand years, the Jedi protected peace and order in the Galaxy." But, what if we substitute the word "balance" for "order"? Then it becomes, "For a thousand years, the Jedi protected peace and balance in the Galaxy."
With that substitution, a lot of other quotes, especially those from Ben Kenobi and Yoda, start to make a lot of sense as compared to D&D druid philosophy:
"You were supposed to bring Balance to the Force, not plunge it into darkness!"
"He's (your father, Darth Vader) more machine than man, now, twisted and evil!"
"Is the Darkside stronger?" "No...easier, more seductive."
"How will I know the Darkside?" "You will know...when you feel calm...centered...at peace..."
This interpretation of the Jedi Knights as druids with neutral alignment also makes more sense of Obi-Wan's actions in the films, that is: He consorts willingly with criminals and lawbreakers when it suits his mission of ensuring "balance", and he cares about rules and "laws" only when it suits his mission for "balance". All the Jedi masters are also seen to be rather ruthless in their enforcement of what they see as "the balance."
My idea, for me, also allows me to see a lot of Luke's and other Jedis' actions through a new lens. Luke prefers to enlist native, natural life for his ends (Ewoks and Wookies, for example), and also is sympathetic to an extreme to AI technology that most closely resembles humanity (Artoo and Threepio). The Jedi in general have a broadly thematic distrust towards technology and machinery, especially technology and machinery that is given social and governmental primacy, considering it "uncivilized" or "unnatural" ("...A more civilized weapon, for a more civilized time...")
So, maybe the Jedi are actually druids with neutral alignment, not paladins, clerics, or fighter-mages with "lawful", "good", or "evil" alignment. (Although, the Sith say things like "Together we can...restore ORDER to the Galaxy!", So maybe the Sith qualify as lawful or neutral evil.)
I'm interested in thoughts about this from other cross SW/D&D fans. I'd like the thread to evolve naturally to all aspects of cross SW/D&D "philosophy" if there's interest and inclination in such a discussion.
EDIT: Btw, there are some things about the druids in the various D&D games that also can be used to interpret druids as Jedi:
1) Druids get special weapon scimitar, and the Flame Blade spell. In NWN2, only druids get the Flame Weapon spell, which is very powerful. (Lightsabers?)
2) Druids' animal companions and summonses, (like especially Insect Plague) in the various computer games can play into the idea of Luke's "use" of Ewoks and animal-like artificial intelligences.
3) Druids' general aversion to attack magic fits fairly well. Call Lightning uses the natural environment, not Darkside anger like Lightning Bolt. Healing and defensive spells like Iron Skins also fit very well with Jedi "philosophy".
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Comments
If you 'had' to model them off of a D&D class, I'd go Monk/cleric or maybe even Monk/Druid. Maybe Monk/wizard I suppose.
Sith on the other hand....
To me 'balance' means that different philosophies can co-exist harmoniously, whereas 'order' is when one philosophy is implemented over all others for the good (or not) of all. A totalitarian dictatorship for example is very 'ordered'.
My interpretation of 'balanced' is heavily influenced by the concept that one cannot truly appreciate the good things in life until you have experienced some of the bad. In other words, Good needs Evil to exist in order for the concept of 'good' to have any meaning.
As @the_spyder said, I see Jedi as 'good' monks and the Sith as 'evil' monks. However I see each of them as trying to impose their own form of 'order' on the Galaxy - they are after all referred to as religious "orders".
I always was under the impression that it was clear as day that Jedi were the closest to Psions (rationalists) and the Sith to Wilders (emotionalists).
I tend to agree more with @the_spyder that the Jedi seem more like a supernatural eastern monastic order. Older real world religions tended to promote order, Eastern favouring a divine cosmic sense of order. Also like many Eastern world views, the Jedi emphasize oneness with the universe. Unlike many real world religions, there is an abandonment of most emotion it seems... in particular, humour is not a key aspect of the Jedi, but joy is important to most Eastern faiths, including finding humour in our personal foibles as a source of humility. Both are pretty chaste too, at higher levels of 'enlightenment'. The Jedi Ghost might even represent achieving something akin to conscious Nirvana, an odd thought indeed.
Sith are pretty interesting in some ways; the base teachings heavily promote chaos and are based around the self, not necessarily evil. The issue I suppose is the teachings don't make Evil strictly taboo... and promoting self interest without promoting compassionate empathy is a great way to create sociopaths. Sociopaths aren't inherently evil, but if they are also purely motivated by self interest, they probably will be pretty evil if given the opportunity.
I think Sith are philosophically speaking trying to make the universe one with themselves, while Jedi seek to become one with the universe. Neither is really good, but the former is very likely to be a corrupting influence.
OH WAIT...
Personally I'd categorize the Force as being Sorcerer-like magic, with the Jedi order being an expected or required multiclass into Monk. Sith may also take levels in monk, but some (like the Emperor) forego levels in Monk for more powerful Sorcerer spells.
I tend to by gut go sorcerer too, but Jedi are WWWAAAYYY less versatile than most low level sorcerers; their only really strong power is their presience. Sith DO have some serious powers, but even in Kotor, LS gets to disable droids, DS gets Force Storm and that Life Drain thingy.
If you wanted to make a 2nd ed style Jedi/Sith, I'd just give them an ultra limited spell selection, used mostly as a sorcerer, and like Kotor, I'd think you'd need several representing the very different skill sets. However, if their limited spell selection is done right, you could use that selection to create Jedi that are more warrior like, more rogueish, or more caster-like.
There was a SW D20, but I have very little knowledge of it, other than the Wound Point system outlined roughly in 3.5's Unearthed Arcana.
jedi have more monk in them and the sith have more sorcerer in them
- he still needs force to do anything and that's similar to ki for me (they both draw power from mental discipline, not an external source such as divine magic)
- the physical aspect of both is more akin to eastern martial arts than western medieval fighting techniques which fit more squarely into the warrior archetype
i also don't really see how he's similar to a ranger
darth maul was strong with the force, we just didn't see him do anything interesting in the movie
### 1) i don't agree with the comparison because the lightsaber is just a technological implement
2) ewoks are luke's sentient allies (not animals) and they haven't been summoned or bound to his will
3) druids don't really have an aversion to attack magic in 2ed; in fact the best druid spells in bg and iwd are offensive spells
I would say they are Druids, but I agree they are true neutral.
Regarding his force strength, he fights without using much force powers, not unlike Yoda, who is supposed to be immensely powerful force-wise. Neither uses tactics like telekinesis much, the way Vader did on Cloud City, or Force Lightning the way Palpatine does. Could he? I'd think he would have if he could; he gets beaten by Obi-wan, and I don't think many people LIKE being bisected.
Obviously not everyone can use every force power it seems, and cannon made a point of stressing that Jedi tend to have varying skills and specialties when using the force; presumeably the more uber-force users like Exar were more versatile, but I'm not certain there is anything that really supports that; sure, in Kotor you get every power eventually (or damn close), but none of the stories seem to back this up.
Some seem to specialize in combat buffs, some like Vader are really versatile, but overall, they aren't using too many big, flashy powers among the Jedi; and most Sith seem to rely more on buffs rather than Force Lightning.
I used to be an uberfan of SW, so curious how the upcoming movies will go.
Regarding original post, just remembered in the old Expanded Universe stuff, Anakin Solo's big specialty was in machines, and using the force to build or repair them, which doesn't sound very druidy.
I see the connection to monk philosophy and ki, but I don't think the combat skills match up well, since monks prefer unarmed combat in the D&D game, and the Jedi always fight with lightsabers. Some kind of sword or staff use seems to be integral to the class concept. (They fight with long, glowing, energy-emitting blade-like weapons using two-handed sword technique. Lucas has been interviewed saying that their fight choreographers began to mix in more and more one-handed sword technique as the movies progressed, as their idea of the base of the lightsaber evolved from being imagined as a very heavy and difficult to manipulate object, into being imagined as a very lightweight and easy to manipulate object.)
I think the Jedi are pretty clearly some kind of fighter-magician hybrid, but D&D has lots of magic-use classifications (arcane, divine, charisma-based, intelligence-based, wisdom-based) that are supposed to define separate classes, while the various individual Jedi can be seen in the movies performing all of the different kinds of spells and casting (charm, evocation, healing, divination, alteration, transmutation) to some degree. The masters don't always agree with each other on the specifics of Jedi philosophy, either.
So maybe "Jedi" is more of an umbrella category that includes a lot of different character classes bound together by a certain philosophical orientation (despite having disagreements about the specifics), and where individuals choose and specialize in different combat techniques according to their talents. I believe there's a lot of material in the expanded universe and in the KOTOR games that would support that idea.
If we *must* quantify Jedi in D&D terms then we would have to go with fighter/druid without the "no metal weapons" restriction (even though druids can use scimitars, which are metal....but that is neither here nor there). Consider the person who personified the nature of Jedi the most--Qui-Gon Jinn (it wasn't his fault which movie he was in, so we'll forgive him for that). He wasn't on the Jedi Council *because* he followed the Force at all times. The Council represented too much top-heavy authority and structure; its failure was inevitable and should have been obvious for anyone to see.
Jedi and Sith are both supposed to be very skilled at unarmed combat, as others have noted, and most do fight without armour; there are exceptions though, some very, very powerful. Vader has significant armour, and iirc, Exar Kun used armour. In Kotor, armour interfered with some force powers, especially flashy Sith ones.
I think Druids would have lots of common ground with Hermit-type Jedi, IE Yoda, Jolee Bindo, Old Ben the Crazy Wizard, etc. Others are very much a part of civilization. I agree its not an easy translation, but I think a Sorcerer with only 1 or 2 spells per spell level, with heavily nerfed 'flashy' spells, and more cleric/haste buffs as options wouldn't be miles off target. You could build a physical combatant, or a manipulator/caster with few buffs using one class.
In 5th Ed, you'd have the option of backgrounds, those subclass, and some unarmoured/unarmed abilities to finish rounding things out. 5th could use those subset/kit-like things to make one Force Adept class work for nearly any Jedi or Sith.
For me, I tend more towards Jedi being more of a Prestige class than a core class. I'd say HEAVY on the Monk type training due to the meditation, the more spiritual powers, the combat (and yes I think unarmed combat is a primary focus of Jedi), the Ki power type abilities, the healing and movement (as stated above). But I rather think it is something that you grow into through progressing in your own life. The philosophy that knowing your true self means following you core skills to their ultimate and then having The Force enhance them.
I definitely can see people saying Sorcerer as being into the mix. I don't take Admiral Motti's comments as being 'Literal' sorcery but merely that there is a mystique surrounding the order which is seen as having mystical 'Sorcery' powers, and not that he was naming a specific class. But I do think that quite a lot of the abilities are Sorcery like, and more innate rather than learned (so Sorcerer rather than Wizard).
I quite liked the way they did it in Kotor in that, depending on your focus, you had three paths. As to how that fits in with 'Official' lore, that's a different matter all-together. I just happened to like it.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Je'daii_Order
The Je'daii Code:
"There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no fear; there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force."
Lightsabers aren't sharp, they are hot. VERY HOT. Its a plasma stick... we use similar technology in the real world for cutting things, and even welding. Plasma is a handy state of matter! Our plasma equipment is VERY bulky though, and no cutters I know of make a plasma as big as a lightsaber; you'd need a robot to use such a cutter safely.
Also, you can't use a plasma cutter without eye protection, dunno how the Jedi solved that one; they should all have one awful case of arc flash after a short dual!
Lightsaber you say?
Michio Kaku - "Can you build a real Lightsaber ?"
@Dreadkhan - I really like the Samurai parallel. I'd say that was much closer.
I wish he'd explored the avenue of blowtorch-like technology a little further before he went with his telescoping model, though. The real world technology that seems the most like a lightsaber to me, is the blowtorch, as @DreadKhan mentioned.
That "Can We Build A Lightsaber" episode is definitely worth watching in its entirety for anyone who hasn't seen it. I might rewatch it later when I have time. The other episodes of this same series are also very interesting and fun. Michio Kaku and Neil DeGrasse Tyson are my favorite popular scientists, and I think they both qualify as two of the most brilliant, charismatic, and interesting people in the world currently. Thanks for the link, @Adso .
I agree that the parrying thing is a complication, as is the odd material being resistant to lightsaber plasma. Plasma isn't solid obviously, and I suspect the whole thing was heavily handwaved.
Oh, wait.