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HoF ... What am I doing wrong?

sorcerinsorcerin Member Posts: 58
Hello,

I'm looking for some advice on my HoF (Insane - Level 1) setup.

Here's my party:

Human Cavalier (longswords, two-weapon style)
Human Berserker (flails, two-weapon style)
Human Berserker (hammers, two-weapon style)
Half-Elf Skald
Elf Sorcerer
Half-Orf Fighter/Thief (longbow, longswords)

Sorcerer and F/T are at level 4 and 4/4. Everyone else is at level 5. I plan to dual-class the berserkers to clerics at level 7.

Sorcerer's spells are Level 1: Magic Missile, Identify, Burning Hands. Level 2: Melf's Acid Arrow (I suspect this may be the weak link.)

I'm at the orc cave in the prologue. I struggled with the first major fight, had to re-load a few times, but beat it. I'm at the last fight in the orc cave, and the ogres crush my front-liners quickly. I can't kill one of them before they kill one of mine, and get the other two down to about half health.

My usual tactic is to have the front-liners melee, Skald sings, F/T and Sorcerer double-up on one of my front-liners' targets with arrows and spells.

What am I doing wrong?

Merina

Comments

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Need to focus on crowd control and buffs rather than direct damage.

    Sorcerer spells should be some selection of:
    Charm person, chromatic orb, web, stinking cloud, shield, slow, glitterdust

    With your skald song your berserkers should be able to get AC of:
    4 splint
    0 dex 18
    -1 shield
    -3 skald song
    -5 rage

    With your berserkers in front to soak hits you should be able to get the enem down without dying if you use crowd control from your two casters.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Yeah, direct damage spells are useless in HoF. 5d6 damage against 100 HP goblins? Obviously not your best choice of spell.

  • SmilingSwordSmilingSword Member Posts: 827
    Use a Totemic Druid, summons get the same bonuses as any other creature in HoF, so having that level one spirit animal is a huge help. Also that orc cave is a huge mission, get them to follow you out side and try killing one to three orcs, then returning to Easthaven resting and going back, rinse and repeat it's cheesy, but there are oh so many orcs and ogres.
    HoF gets a lot easier when you hit Vail of Shadows.

    Merina
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    *hehe-haha* There's a lot of good info in the thread-o-doom's multiple pages about powergaming parties.

    Indeed, the orcs and ogres will follow you outside the cave and stay in that area. If you return into the cave, they will block the entry as one huge blob and make it much harder to fight them. Fleeing to Easthaven for resting, then returning to kill one or two is one cheesy way to do it. I think the first killed ogre drops the items you need to report back to Gaspar and Hrothgar ... but returning to kill them all gives important XP.

    Grease is a very obvious way to slow down the enemies.

    One reason I like starting with a Fighter/Druid in the party is Entangle for holding up the orcs, Doom (and Curse against the ogres) and a bit of healing.

    Mad powergamers enjoy running in circles, fleeing endless and throwing stuff at the enemies to kill them without returning to Easthaven. :flushed:

  • SmilingSwordSmilingSword Member Posts: 827
    Merina said:

    *hehe-haha*
    Mad powergamers enjoy running in circles, fleeing endless and throwing stuff at the enemies to kill them without returning to Easthaven. :flushed:

    Yeah you could do that, but how much reloading does it take? A ogre hits for 4D6 normally how much does it hit for in HoF, also it has a extra APR, so no just no. Powergamers scare me sometimes.

    semiticgod
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,162
    That starting cave is one of the hardest parts of a HoF run. After that, it gets a lot easier very quickly, and soon it's just afk while you wait for everyone to plow through the thousand-HP-total mob packs.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058

    Merina said:

    *hehe-haha*
    Mad powergamers enjoy running in circles, fleeing endless and throwing stuff at the enemies to kill them without returning to Easthaven. :flushed:

    Yeah you could do that, but how much reloading does it take? A ogre hits for 4D6 normally how much does it hit for in HoF, also it has a extra APR, so no just no. Powergamers scare me sometimes.
    You can get enough AC and HP to go toe to toe with ogres for a few rounds at least but the best way to deal with them is to peg them with ranged while they are stuck behind their Orc minions in one of the narrow corridors. Charming orcs to act as fodder and hitting ogres with chromatic orb after your casters have a few levels works well too. I usually have a cleric cast curse too for more effective AC. Obviously Hold Person is a great way to remove orcs from the fight and possibly trap ogres to be pegged to death with ranged weapons.

    I don't find entangle to be all that useful as it only stops orcs but orcs can't hit a fighter in splint, large shield, helmet, rage and skald song often enough for him to care anyway.

  • sorcerinsorcerin Member Posts: 58
    edited July 2015
    Thanks for the advice everyone.

    I started over. This time I took Chromatic Orb, Charm Person, Grease, and Glitterdust. I also put shields on my front-liners. (I'll go back to dual-wield later after I complete the dual-classing and can cast defensive spells.)

    Glitterdust didn't seem to last long, or have much effect. I re-loaded and took Stinking Cloud instead.

    SC seemed knock out lots of orcs for long stretches, allowing my melee/archer to whittle down their numbers. Grease keeps them in the the SC longer. Charm Person is short duration, but can help shift the odds. I even had two orcs fighting each other after the charmed one turned hostile to me again.

    Chromatic Orb doesn't seem to do anything. I'm only level 4, maybe it gets better later?

    I passed the first hard fight in the orc cave. Overall it seemed a bit easier; I just had to figure out the correct positioning for the SC. I think for the ogre fight, I'll try to keep them in the narrow passage-way just outside the room where they spawn. I'll have my melee up front and try to keep as many of them in SC as possible. I'll cast some Charm Persons to turn them on each other. Hopefully that will do the trick.

    Post edited by sorcerin on
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    sorcerin said:

    Thanks for the advice everyone.

    I started over. This time I took Chromatic Orb, Charm Person, Grease, and Glitterdust. I also put shields on my front-liners. (I'll go back to dual-wield later after I complete the dual-classing and can cast defensive spells.)

    Glitterdust didn't seem to last long, or have much effect. I re-loaded and took Stinking Cloud instead.

    SC seemed knock out lots of orcs for long stretches, allowing my melee/archer to whittle down their numbers. Grease keeps them in the the SC longer. Charm Person is short duration, but can help shift the odds. I even had two orcs fighting each other after the charmed one turned hostile to me again.

    Chromatic Orb doesn't seem to do anything. I'm only level 4, maybe it gets better later?

    I passed the first hard fight in the orc cave. Overall it seemed a bit easier; I just had to figure out the correct positioning for the SC. I think for the ogre fight, I'll try to keep them in the narrow passage-way just outside the room where they spawn. I'll have my melee up front and try to keep as many of them in SC as possible. I'll cast some Charm Persons to turn them on each other. Hopefully that will do the trick.

    Good on you.

    Glitterdust is quite strong as it blinds everyone but only lasts 4 rounds. Stinking Cloud is a better first choice. Glitterdust is party friendly though so it's good to have all 3 eventually.

    Chromatic Orb gets stronger, read the description to see how it changes.

    All of these spells work better if you cast debuffs like Curse, Doom, Chant, Prayer, Recitation and Greater Malison. The large amount of cleric debuffs is the reason I like a Mage/cleric or illusionist/cleric to combine curse and chant in a minor sequencer (for -2 to saves) or prayer, recitation and greater malison (for -5 to saves). In this way you can give enemies -7 to saves in just 2 rounds!

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Wowo said:


    but the best way to deal with them is to peg them with ranged

    I don't find entangle to be all that useful as it only stops orcs but orcs can't hit a fighter in splint, large shield, helmet, rage and skald song often enough for him to care anyway.

    Funny you say that with two Kensai duals in your favourite powergaming party, who cannot wear any armor or ranged weapons. :cookie:

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Merina said:

    Wowo said:


    but the best way to deal with them is to peg them with ranged

    I don't find entangle to be all that useful as it only stops orcs but orcs can't hit a fighter in splint, large shield, helmet, rage and skald song often enough for him to care anyway.

    Funny you say that with two Kensai duals in your favourite powergaming party, who cannot wear any armor or ranged weapons. :cookie:

    Once their dualed you can use Spiritual Hammer or Melfs Minite Meteors as ranged weapons.

    Not sure what point you're trying to make though, Entangle just isn't needed if you have at least one appropriately armoured and buffed warrior.

    The point that I'm keen to make is that eithe a kitted single class Druid or a dual Druid is better than a multi Druid due to how powerful high level Druids are when they gain access to abilities like water elemental form and high level spells.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Wowo said:

    Not sure what point you're trying to make though,

    Really? ... Remember ... it's the early Orcs/Ogres cave ... that's much earlier than dual-classing Kensais. Don't refer to high-level spells or abilities when talking about that cave.

    semiticgod
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Merina said:

    Wowo said:

    Not sure what point you're trying to make though,

    Really? ... Remember ... it's the early Orcs/Ogres cave ... that's much earlier than dual-classing Kensais. Don't refer to high-level spells or abilities when talking about that cave.
    If you don't qualify your statement then why should you expect me to?

  • sorcerinsorcerin Member Posts: 58
    Stinking Cloud knocks down ogres, Chromatic Orb working correctly. Made it past the orc cave. On to Kuldahar. Thanks again, all!

    MerinaFinneousPJ
  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    @Djimmy

    Haste is a level 3 spell and not available to that party so early. It would require a single-class Mage, level 5 at 20,000 XP ... as it's only between 26,000 and 27,000 XP per hero with a party-of-six at start of Kuldahar Pass. And that's including the XP rewards from Gaspar, Pomab and Hrothgar for returning from the cave.

    A Sorcerer would need 40,000 XP to reach level 6 to learn Haste.

    And it would need a single-class Cleric, too, at level 5 for the level 3 Animate Dead spell.

    Djimmysemiticgod
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Merina said:

    @Djimmy

    Haste is a level 3 spell and not available to that party so early. It would require a single-class Mage, level 5 at 20,000 XP ... as it's only between 26,000 and 27,000 XP per hero with a party-of-six at start of Kuldahar Pass. And that's including the XP rewards from Gaspar, Pomab and Hrothgar for returning from the cave.

    A Sorcerer would need 40,000 XP to reach level 6 to learn Haste.

    And it would need a single-class Cleric, too, at level 5 for the level 3 Animate Dead spell.

    On the other hand the OP has just arrived at Kuldahar so will find a haste scroll shortly and even a multi cleric should have animate dead by now.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    @Wowo

    OP wrote: "Made it past the orc cave. On to Kuldahar. "

    FIrst is the Kuldahar pass area with some fights you can skip, then Kuldahar.

    A multi-class F/C is not in the party and would need 13,000 + 16,000 XP, for example, which is reached somewhere after Kuldahar Pass ... so no available in the Orcs Ogres cave. If clearing the pass and the canyon, it's above 60,000 XP per hero. A big jump.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Merina said:

    @Wowo

    OP wrote: "Made it past the orc cave. On to Kuldahar. "

    FIrst is the Kuldahar pass area with some fights you can skip, then Kuldahar.

    A multi-class F/C is not in the party and would need 13,000 + 16,000 XP, for example, which is reached somewhere after Kuldahar Pass ... so no available in the Orcs Ogres cave. If clearing the pass and the canyon, it's above 60,000 XP per hero. A big jump.

    At half xp my multi cleric had animate dead at halfway through the pass. Perhaps you missed some quest xp in your calculations?

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Read my post again ... slowly. What exactly do you disagree with?

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    edited July 2015
    Merina said:

    Read my post again ... slowly. What exactly do you disagree with?

    You said that a multi cleric will get animate dead shortly after the pass but my experience was that at half xp I had it halfway through the pass.

    By the time the OP finds the first Haste scroll he will definitely have slots for it and only it and will definitely have plenty of casts of animate dead on which to cast haste.

    @Djimmy didn't specify when his advice was for and I was pointing out that the OP will have the opportunity to try out that particular strategy very shortly. Hence I said "on the other hand".

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    @Wowo

    I wrote: it's only between 26,000 and 27,000 XP per hero with a party-of-six at start of Kuldahar Pass. You need to reach Kuldahar Pass and fight some more to gain the required XP ... obviously, if it's around 60,000 XP per hero after clearing Pass and Canyon, you can reach the needed level some time before arriving at Kuldahar, but later than the Orcs Ogre cave.
    By the time the OP finds the first Haste scroll
    Kressellack's Tomb. :tongue:

    Yeah ... writing more accurately is hard ... let's go shopping ...

  • sorcerinsorcerin Member Posts: 58
    edited July 2015
    I'm in Dragon Eye now. Fighter -> Clerics have completed their duals, and all three front-liners are back to dual-wielding.

    Lord Tansheron appears correct so far, in that the combat subsequent to the orc cave has been much easier than the orc cave was. However, I still can't slack off like I could in a core setting game. I still have to use actual sound tactics. Dragon Eye is a bit more challenging with all the lizard men, but not quite as bad as the orc cave yet.

    Prioritizing CC and buffing/de-buffing over direct damage spells for my sorcerer clearly made the critical difference.

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