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Wild Mage Chaos Shields

Livegood118Livegood118 Member Posts: 48
edited July 2015 in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
I know that the bug where Chaos shields of the same type stack has been fixed in the enhanced edition but what isn't clear is whether shields of different types still stack?

e.g. If I cast improved Chaos Shield, Chaos shield and the am wearing the Chaos Shield robes found from Neera's quest in SoA do I get +55 to my Wild Surge rolls? Or is it a case of Improved Chaos Shield trumps everything?

Comments

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    IIRC, it appears that all three stack, yes (although I haven't poked around in the files to verify this for sure).
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    Chaos shield spells should not stack with each other, but they may currently stack in BG2:EE due to a bug which I assume will be fixed eventually. Chaos shield type effects from items will always stack and this is intentional.
  • Livegood118Livegood118 Member Posts: 48
    edited July 2015
    Whaaat .... Really? Does the bug also still include Chaos Shields of the same type e.g. two improved chaos shields or was I right in saying that was fixed?

    So, in theory, the max + to wild surge rolls I should be able to get if they do not stack is the following:

    +31 Level
    +15 Chaos Shield
    +15 Chaos Shield Robes
    +25 Improved Chaos Shield
    +15 Wild Mage Circlet (TOB)

    =+101?
  • Livegood118Livegood118 Member Posts: 48
    With the Robe of Vecna equipped this would mean my available surges would be as follows:

    86 Fake explosion (no damage) centered on target
    87 Cow falls from sky, lands on target
    88 Target dizzy
    89 Spell has 60-foot radius at target
    90 Stinking Cloud centered on target
    91 Target is itchy
    92 Caster’s Hit Points doubled
    93 Target held
    94 Target hastened
    95 80% of gold on target isdestroyed
    96 Spell cast at double effectiveness
    97 Spell cast, -4 to target’s Saving Throw
    98 Target’s color changed
    99 Spell Cast at Double Level
    100 Spell Cast Normally

    Which equates to a 91% chance that the spell will be cast normally or better than normal.

    Here's another question: What happens if I put NRDs in to sequencers? If I have Spell Trap, can I use magic missiles in sequencers to cast on self and restore NRDs?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    To the best of my knowledge the bug involves just the stacking of the icons (improved chaos shield and chaos shield using different icons) rather than the stacking of the wild surge bonus itself.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    I just looked at Chaos Shield and Improved Chaos Shield and the wild surge bonus, opcode 281, has a modifier type of "set". Whichever one is the last one you cast is the value which will take effect--they won't stack. If you alter the modifier type to "increment", though, they would stack.

    *Should* they stack? I don't know. Probably not...but it would take less than one minute to make them stack so if that's what you want to do then do it.

    hrm...even the robes have the wild surge bonus flagged as "set" so it doesn't look like it would stack with the spells, either. That has to be incorrect.

    The circlet has the opcode flagged as "increment"--okay, that seems correct. The robes should probably be set that way, as well as the spells. To make the spells where they do not stack would require adding the "protection from spell" opcode.

    Having both items should give you a base of 30, then +15 from Chaos Shield or +25 from Improved Chaos Shield, so either 45 or 55 if the spells don't stack and 70 if they do stack, not counting the mage's level.

    Incidentally, I edited the Robe of Vecna to make the wearer immune to wild surges. That is probably a little bit of overkill if worn by a wild mage, though--they could use Nahal's Reckless Dweomer without any negative effects.
  • Livegood118Livegood118 Member Posts: 48
    Could you help me implement these changes in DLTCEP?

    I have gone in to spells before and changed the casting time - I did this with Iron skins to reduce the cast time from 9 to 1. I tried looking at items before but found it really, really confusing.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,264
    Mathsorcerer said:

    I just looked at Chaos Shield and Improved Chaos Shield and the wild surge bonus, opcode 281, has a modifier type of "set". Whichever one is the last one you cast is the value which will take effect--they won't stack. If you alter the modifier type to "increment", though, they would stack.

    *Should* they stack? I don't know. Probably not...but it would take less than one minute to make them stack so if that's what you want to do then do it.

    hrm...even the robes have the wild surge bonus flagged as "set" so it doesn't look like it would stack with the spells, either. That has to be incorrect.

    The circlet has the opcode flagged as "increment"--okay, that seems correct. The robes should probably be set that way, as well as the spells. To make the spells where they do not stack would require adding the "protection from spell" opcode.

    Having both items should give you a base of 30, then +15 from Chaos Shield or +25 from Improved Chaos Shield, so either 45 or 55 if the spells don't stack and 70 if they do stack, not counting the mage's level.

    Incidentally, I edited the Robe of Vecna to make the wearer immune to wild surges. That is probably a little bit of overkill if worn by a wild mage, though--they could use Nahal's Reckless Dweomer without any negative effects.

    Huh... They do have a modifier type of "Set" in BG2:EE... That is odd... Especially considering that the spells have a modifier type of "increment" in BG1:EE and vBG2... Based on vBG2 and BG1:EE I suspect that the spells at least should have a modifier type of "increment". Not sure about the robe. What do you think @elminster?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited July 2015
    *shrugs* The BGEE one also removes the effect of Chaos Shield and Improved Chaos Shield as a resource. Having it set to a specific value is likely just a simpler way of addressing the issue.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited July 2015
    The Hayes Robe says that you get Chaos Shield active on you while its worn. So it should be a set value.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    elminster said:

    The Hayes Robe says that you get Chaos Shield active on you while its worn. So it should be a set value.

    Er ... but in that case, wouldn't that stop the Robe stacking with the (Improved) Chaos Shield spells? If so, that'd nerf the Robe into pointlessness, instead of being a good piece of unique kit for a Wild Mage - you'd always be much better off wearing a Robe of Vecna or Archmagi and casting the Shield. It's essential to the purpose of the Hayes Robe that it must stack.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited July 2015
    I assume the purpose of the robe is that you didn't have to worry so much about always casting one of the shields (but it was still in your interest to cast Improved Chaos Shield). That is speculation on my part as I was not around for the design of the items.

    That said it looks like there is a difference between what Chaos Shield and Improved Chaos Shield does and what its description says it does. The descriptions state its benefits in a way that imply an incremental increase. That isn't what they do. One way or the other they should be made accurate.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    elminster said:

    *shrugs* The BGEE one also removes the effect of Chaos Shield and Improved Chaos Shield as a resource. Having it set to a specific value is likely just a simpler way of addressing the issue.

    I didn't check the BGEE versions, only BG2EE. The BGEE versions do, indeed, cancel each other's effects then increment the value of the wild surge bonus. Your assessment is accurate.

    I can see making the robe stack with either spell but allowing both spells to stack with each other in addition to the robe would make wild mages significantly more powerful than regular mages. Since I am not in the design or bug-fix departments my recommendations are meaningless but that doesn't meant that I won't make the changes on the game as I see fit.

    @Livegood118 If you open the spell file in DLTCEP (spwi222 or spwi723) then go to the "extended effects" tab you can edit the effect called "stat: wild magic (281)". Change the "type" variable from 1 to 0 to make it a cumulative modifier, making certain to do that for every extended header, then save the spell.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    elminster said:

    I assume the purpose of the robe is that you didn't have to worry so much about always casting one of the shields (but it was still in your interest to cast Improved Chaos Shield). That is speculation on my part as I was not around for the design of the items.

    Merely saving you from having to remember to cast Chaos Shield is a completely trivial benefit compared to the benefit of wearing Vecna or Archmagi, especially since the Hayes Robe also penalises AC. No-one in his right mind would use it!

    Considering that it's unique and takes a significant effort to earn (i.e. finishing Neera's SoA questline), it seems to me obvious that it's meant to confer some worthwhile benefit. The only way I can see for it to do that is if its Shield effect is additional to the spell(s), i.e. stacks. (But yes, obviously this is my speculation, since I wasn't involved in development.)
    elminster said:

    That said it looks like there is a difference between what Chaos Shield and Improved Chaos Shield does and what its description says it does. The descriptions state its benefits in a way that imply an incremental increase. That isn't what they do. One way or the other they should be made accurate.

    Agreed, of course. It's always a bug when a description is untrue.
  • SciobthaSciobtha Member Posts: 54
    elminster said:

    I assume the purpose of the robe is that you didn't have to worry so much about always casting one of the shields (but it was still in your interest to cast Improved Chaos Shield). That is speculation on my part as I was not around for the design of the items.

    Merely saving you from having to remember to cast Chaos Shield is a completely trivial benefit compared to the benefit of wearing Vecna or Archmagi, especially since the Hayes Robe also penalises AC. No-one in his right mind would use it!
    Gallowglass said:

    Considering that it's unique and takes a significant effort to earn (i.e. finishing Neera's SoA questline), it seems to me obvious that it's meant to confer some worthwhile benefit. The only way I can see for it to do that is if its Shield effect is additional to the spell(s), i.e. stacks. (But yes, obviously this is my speculation, since I wasn't involved in development.)

    Well, like Elminster is saying, without a developer in the discussion, the most we can do is look at wording which says:
    elminster said:

    The Hayes Robe says that you get Chaos Shield active on you while its worn. So it should be a set value.

    So that definitely seems less helpful and let's face it, the questline isn't that tough and that gift would be more in line with the idea of getting handy trinkets that are supposed to be more thoughtful than op, like a tankard with your name on it from the brewmaster. A little clockwork bird that sings occasionally, a cat collar reminding you of saving that fellows cats etc...

    Plus it still frees a spell slot and looks so cool! lol I guess it would depend on how you play your wild mage, mine doesn't need minus kajillion AC as they are running in fear from anything that even looks their way, only to hurl a finger of death when my tank distracts the baddie again.

    So it would appear that the robe was not intended to stack wild surge roll boosts, but just give the perma spell effect, which is nice in and of itself. Perhaps meant to help you decide who gets Vecna's Robe if you have multiple spellcasters who could benefit from it?

    However, it looks like the way to change that in the game files was posted above so go for it, if that is what you want to do. :) Don't fear the cheater police, they can only message mean things to you, but are fairly impotent otherwise. :P

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