@Arcanis Gameplay-wise? No, it's just a VN. But choice-wise? If it's giving you the options to RP a different character with a different personality each time? Yes, it's a role-playing visual novel.
Like I said, LARPing has no stats or mechanics. It's just people dressing up and playing the character they chose to play, shaping the story as they go along. And it's still Role-Playing, hence the name: Live Action Role-Playing.
But when it comes to video game categorization, it's only the gameplay that defines its genre.
I was thinking about this some more today and remembered that in the PnP setting RPG can either mean "Role Playing Game" and/or "Roll Playing Game." The first being the players taking on the role of a character in the world, the second is letting the dice decide the fate of the player.
If we are talking about random chance (i.e. dice rolls) determining the fate of the player, then games like Diablo can be called "Roll Playing Games" and are therefore "literal" RPGs. The dice decide if an attack hits, the damage that is done, and the loot you get after.
Giving only choices to roleplay in a computer game is not enough to make a game an RPG.
Any game gives you choices. Roleplaying is not limited to dialogue, even Super Mario has choices as to which path to follow and how to deal with enemies.
On PnP roleplaying is a valid element to decide, but on computer games is not enough. There should be some mechanics behind to make it a roleplaying game, otherwise, all games are RPGs.
There are also other ways of addressing roleplaying on games besides dialogue choices, some games go with the silent protagonist so that players are not forced to have dialogue for their characters, that way they can just imagine what the character is saying. There is also the keyword system that was used on Ultima games, which is mostly the same as silent protagonist, but it let's you choose the subjects you want to discuss.
Anyway, as I said, roleplaying is not just limited to dialogue, on a dungeon crawl, just choosing which path to take is also roleplaying, and even if the game has no NPCs to talk to, which usually happened on old CRPGs, doesn't mean that your own character doesn't have any background or doesn't talk with his companions. Back then, a lot of the roleplaying was left to the imagination of the player.
When it comes to this kind of issue, I have an approach of "I know it when I see it."
Certain games that I like are fairly easily grouped into categories of like-gameplay, so maybe it would help to play $25,000 Pyramid and make lists. Then, you guys can tell me what category name you would call the games on the lists.
First list: Diablo, Titan Quest, Sacred, Torchlight, Nox, Dungeon Siege, Path of Exile
Second list: Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Two Worlds (My experience playing the games on this list is categorically different from my experience playing the games on the first list.)
Third list: Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age, Drakensang, Might and Magic, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Fourth list: Heroes of Might and Magic, Dark Wizard, Fantasy General, Age of Wonders, Fantasy Wars
The games on all four lists only have one thing in common - they all share a pseudo-medieval-renaissance swords and sorcery setting (except for the Star Wars). Other than that, I find these four game types to be four distinct categories of experiences I'm going to have when I play them. But within each category, the game elements all contain a virtually identical set of elements.
Here's how I'd categorize them, based on the assumption that "RPG" is an industry genre term that can be used to describe a specific type of gameplay. I'm also assuming that no game can be "categorized" as more than two genres at once
First List: Action/Platformer
Second List: Action/RPG
Third List: Strategy/RPG
Fourth List: Strategy
For these purposes, "RPG" means any game with dialogue that the player can direct. "Strategy" means any game that relies on controlling multiple elements of a single combat (typically but not necessarily in the context of controlling or issuing commands to more than one character or combatant). "Action" means any game that features prominent elements of player dexterity as a requirement for success. "Platformer" means any game that prominently features movement through, across, or around a level as a requirement for success, in the context of avoiding obstacles and avoiding attacks.
Agree with @BelgarathMTH's "Know it when I see it assessment."
Is there anything to the notion that the core of an RPG is the ability to influence your character's relationships with others?
As opposed to just influencing events, I mean... For instance, in MGS you can decide to let Meryl die because your thumb hurts, or in Resident Evil you can decide that Chris is a big boy and can look after himself... Both affect outcomes... But both are definitely not RPGs.
Then consider something like Mass Effect or NWN2 where a succession of different choices/options might lead to various companions/factions taking widely divergent approaches to helping or hindering you.
@Dee, interesting, I'd never encountered the term "platformer" to describe a game that has the player move through levels or "zones", so you taught me a new word there.
One other term I sometimes use for naming my list number two would be "open world-sandbox". I guess you could argue that Baldur's Gate qualifies for that, though. So maybe there's a little more commonality among my lists than I had thought. That's probably why genre classification of swords and sorcery and sci-fi computer games can be so confusing and contentious.
Yet, whenever new releases are published, the developers always manage to give me a very clear idea of exactly what kind of game they want me to buy. I would hypothesize that that's because they don't rely on terms and phrases that don't have agreed-upon definitions, but rather, they explain in detail the game they're creating, and often use comparisons with older games that inform and inspire their own creations.
If that's the case, though, then XCOM is more of a "pure" RPG than Baldur's Gate (because XCOM's attacks are entirely stat-driven, and because none of the gameplay is based on the player's physical dexterity or agility, whereas in Baldur's Gate your ability to dodge a fireball is dependent upon the player's ability to move their character out of the way before it explodes), and I don't know that anyone would try to assert that that is the case.
The "RPG" classification, as I said, is an umbrella term that has been growing to cover games from a lot of other genres--and even games that historically were classified as simply "RPG", by today's standards, are not just RPGs.
Well, you talk about turn based, and in that vein, ToEE was more like an RPG than BG2. Definitely closer to PnP. Not necessarily a better game.
I'm just excited to see someone else remembers Nox. It wasn't the best game for its time but it had some pretty cool magic and actually gave warrior characters a nice amount of variety in terms of abilities. I also always liked how it had an alternate path in the game depending on what class you chose. Its a shame it never got a sequel.
I see this debate and it makes me think of heavy metal fans arguing whether Metallica was speed or thrash metal. Or the time two guys I used to know almost had an altercation because one was saying that Iron Maiden was actually melodic heavy metal and the other was saying that that was heresy because as a part of the NWOBHM, Iron Maiden has helped define the genre and thus couldn't be subcategorized like this.
If that last paragraph made you bored, well, that's how I feel whenever people get into the "what's an RPG?" debate. I mean no offense, though.
The definition of RPG is loose. It's a mixture of certain key elements - storytelling (plot/fluff) and simulation (rules/crunch) with some other optional ingredients that make it different from other types of game - a degree of randomness (heritage from tabletop games in which you rolled dice) and character customization, for example. Pretty much every game is going to prioritize some but not all of these.
I hate it when people accuse less story-focused games to be "roll-playing" because the term almost always implies that that's an inferior type of game or way of playing. Which is as silly as saying "you don't pretend to be an Elf in the sophisticated and artistic way that I do." When you take role-playing too much the opposite way from "roll-playing", you might as well start an improvisational theater group.
There's no such thing as a "pure" or "true" RPG any more than there's such a thing as a "pure" or "true" cake. Yes, cake, as in food.
Three is the number of cakes you shall eat, and the number of cakes you shall eat will be three! Four shall be too many, and two shall be too few!
And the people feasted upon the cakes, the layered cakes, the frosted cakes, the cupcakes, the pancakes, the orangutans, and the fruitcakes, until all were full... and there was much rejoicing (Yay!).
Three is the number of cakes you shall eat, and the number of cakes you shall eat will be three! Four shall be too many, and two shall be too few!
And the people feasted upon the cakes, the layered cakes, the frosted cakes, the cupcakes, the pancakes, the orangutans, and the fruitcakes, until all were full... and there was much rejoicing (Yay!).
With so many cakes to choose from how can I only pick 3?
Comments
Gameplay-wise? No, it's just a VN.
But choice-wise? If it's giving you the options to RP a different character with a different personality each time? Yes, it's a role-playing visual novel.
Like I said, LARPing has no stats or mechanics. It's just people dressing up and playing the character they chose to play, shaping the story as they go along.
And it's still Role-Playing, hence the name: Live Action Role-Playing.
But when it comes to video game categorization, it's only the gameplay that defines its genre.
If we are talking about random chance (i.e. dice rolls) determining the fate of the player, then games like Diablo can be called "Roll Playing Games" and are therefore "literal" RPGs. The dice decide if an attack hits, the damage that is done, and the loot you get after.
Any game gives you choices. Roleplaying is not limited to dialogue, even Super Mario has choices as to which path to follow and how to deal with enemies.
On PnP roleplaying is a valid element to decide, but on computer games is not enough. There should be some mechanics behind to make it a roleplaying game, otherwise, all games are RPGs.
There are also other ways of addressing roleplaying on games besides dialogue choices, some games go with the silent protagonist so that players are not forced to have dialogue for their characters, that way they can just imagine what the character is saying. There is also the keyword system that was used on Ultima games, which is mostly the same as silent protagonist, but it let's you choose the subjects you want to discuss.
Anyway, as I said, roleplaying is not just limited to dialogue, on a dungeon crawl, just choosing which path to take is also roleplaying, and even if the game has no NPCs to talk to, which usually happened on old CRPGs, doesn't mean that your own character doesn't have any background or doesn't talk with his companions. Back then, a lot of the roleplaying was left to the imagination of the player.
Certain games that I like are fairly easily grouped into categories of like-gameplay, so maybe it would help to play $25,000 Pyramid and make lists. Then, you guys can tell me what category name you would call the games on the lists.
First list:
Diablo, Titan Quest, Sacred, Torchlight, Nox, Dungeon Siege, Path of Exile
Second list:
Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Two Worlds (My experience playing the games on this list is categorically different from my experience playing the games on the first list.)
Third list:
Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age, Drakensang, Might and Magic, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Fourth list:
Heroes of Might and Magic, Dark Wizard, Fantasy General, Age of Wonders, Fantasy Wars
The games on all four lists only have one thing in common - they all share a pseudo-medieval-renaissance swords and sorcery setting (except for the Star Wars). Other than that, I find these four game types to be four distinct categories of experiences I'm going to have when I play them. But within each category, the game elements all contain a virtually identical set of elements.
So, for $25,000, name those lists.
First List: Action/Platformer
Second List: Action/RPG
Third List: Strategy/RPG
Fourth List: Strategy
For these purposes, "RPG" means any game with dialogue that the player can direct.
"Strategy" means any game that relies on controlling multiple elements of a single combat (typically but not necessarily in the context of controlling or issuing commands to more than one character or combatant).
"Action" means any game that features prominent elements of player dexterity as a requirement for success.
"Platformer" means any game that prominently features movement through, across, or around a level as a requirement for success, in the context of avoiding obstacles and avoiding attacks.
Is there anything to the notion that the core of an RPG is the ability to influence your character's relationships with others?
As opposed to just influencing events, I mean... For instance, in MGS you can decide to let Meryl die because your thumb hurts, or in Resident Evil you can decide that Chris is a big boy and can look after himself... Both affect outcomes... But both are definitely not RPGs.
Then consider something like Mass Effect or NWN2 where a succession of different choices/options might lead to various companions/factions taking widely divergent approaches to helping or hindering you.
One other term I sometimes use for naming my list number two would be "open world-sandbox". I guess you could argue that Baldur's Gate qualifies for that, though. So maybe there's a little more commonality among my lists than I had thought. That's probably why genre classification of swords and sorcery and sci-fi computer games can be so confusing and contentious.
Yet, whenever new releases are published, the developers always manage to give me a very clear idea of exactly what kind of game they want me to buy. I would hypothesize that that's because they don't rely on terms and phrases that don't have agreed-upon definitions, but rather, they explain in detail the game they're creating, and often use comparisons with older games that inform and inspire their own creations.
If that last paragraph made you bored, well, that's how I feel whenever people get into the "what's an RPG?" debate. I mean no offense, though.
The definition of RPG is loose. It's a mixture of certain key elements - storytelling (plot/fluff) and simulation (rules/crunch) with some other optional ingredients that make it different from other types of game - a degree of randomness (heritage from tabletop games in which you rolled dice) and character customization, for example. Pretty much every game is going to prioritize some but not all of these.
I hate it when people accuse less story-focused games to be "roll-playing" because the term almost always implies that that's an inferior type of game or way of playing. Which is as silly as saying "you don't pretend to be an Elf in the sophisticated and artistic way that I do." When you take role-playing too much the opposite way from "roll-playing", you might as well start an improvisational theater group.
There's no such thing as a "pure" or "true" RPG any more than there's such a thing as a "pure" or "true" cake. Yes, cake, as in food.
And the people feasted upon the cakes, the layered cakes, the frosted cakes, the cupcakes, the pancakes, the orangutans, and the fruitcakes, until all were full... and there was much rejoicing (Yay!).