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What do you think about this kit?

CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,156
edited February 2017 in General Modding
I'm currently creating this kit, and I wanted to hear what people thought about it, mostly from the balance part, and maybe some ideas to give the kit interesting Lore.

THUNDERFIST: These powerful warriors are trained not to rely on any weapon but those their body already provides—fists—and to channel the power of Lightning throughout them and their body. Because of their intense training to master the Way of the Thunder, they gain resistances to breath weapons and have innate skills to dodge ranged attacks. These Monks are unusual in Faerun, and their origin of their Order is said to be tied to other Planes as well.

Advantages:
— +10% to Move Silently and Hide in Shadows.
— Receives a +2 to Saving Throws vs. Breath Weapons.
— Gains -1 to Speed Factor every 5 levels, starting at level 1 (max. -4 at level 15).
— May get different High Level Abilities than other Monks.
— May use the Spiritual Thunderstorm ability once per day. Gains one use at level 1.
— May use the Thunder Strike ability once per day. Gains one use at level 5 and an additional use every 5 levels thereafter.
— May select the Storm Stance fighting form, starting at level 1.
— May select the Lightning Stance fighting form, starting at level 5.
— May select the Spark Stance fighting form, starting at level 10.
— May make 3/2 unarmed attacks per round. An Additional 1/2 attack per round is gained every 5 levels. The Lightning Damage shown here is only dealt when the Storm Stance fighting technique is being used. Damage dealt by unarmed attacks increases with level as follows:
Level 1-2: 1d6 Crushing, +1 Electrical Damage every 3rd strike
Level 3-5: 1d8 Crushing, +2 Electrical Damage every 3rd strike
Level 6-8: 1d10 Crushing, +2d2 Electrical Damage every 3rd strike
Level 9-14: 1d12 Crushing, +2d4 Electrical Damage every 3rd strike
Level 15-24: 1d20 Crushing, +2d6 Electrical Damage every 3rd strike
Level 25+: 1d20 Crushing, +3d8 Electrical Damage every 3rd strike
— Gains a +1 bonus to AC Modifier vs Missile weapons every 5 level, starting at level 1.
— Gains a +1 bonus to AC every 5 levels, starting at level 1.


Disadvantages:
— Alignment restricted to neutral.
— May not use any other weapon that own fists and feet.
— Does not gain any additional Saving Throw bonuses from the Monk class.
— Does not gain additional Speed Factor bonuses at levels 8 and 12.
— Does not gain additional Movement Speed bonuses from the Monk class.
— May not gain any Magic Resistance nor special immunities from the Monk class.
— Gains AC and AC Mod. vs. Missiles every 5 levels instead of 2 and 3 respectively.
— May not spend points in the Find Traps skills.
— May not spend any points in Fighting Styles nor Weapon Proficiencies.
— May not use the Lay on Hands ability.
— May not use the Stunning Blow ability.
— May not use the Quivering Palm ability.

SPIRITUAL THUNDERSTORM: Damages nearby enemies by 1d4 points of Electrical Damage per level (max. 20d4 at level 20) and lowers their AC by 2 every 5 levels (max. -10 at level 20).

THUNDER STRIKE: The first strike damages nearby enemies with Lightning Damage for 1d4/level for every level after level 5 (max 15d4 at level 20).

STORM STANCE: The monk draws the power of Lightning from his inner self and reflects it upon his fists. Every 3rd strike, the Monk knocks the target back (no save) and Stuns them for 1 round (save vs. spell at +2, minus 1 every 5 levels, max. -2 at level 20) and deals extra Lightning damage as noted before. Also, the Thunderfist is Hasted for 1 round after the 3rd strike happens.

LIGHTNING STANCE: The Monk gains the speed of Lightning. blows now deal 1d4 slashing damage plus 3 lightning damage, and the Monk becomes Hasted, movement speed doubled and gaining one extra attack per round.

SPARK STANCE: The Monk becomes one with the Thunder and transforms into a spark, gaining 5% Lightning Resistance/level (max. 125 at level 25), and an electrical shield for 2d4 damage to anyone that hits , besides becoming immune to Slow and Normal Weapons. There is, however, one big drawback: The Monk may only attack once per round for 1d3 Lightning damage.

Mind that: this kit doesn't gain the immunites, Magic Resistance and insane AC bonus other Monks do, hence the higher damage output. Tell me what do you people think on this and thanks in advance.

Post edited by CrevsDaak on
CaeriaSionIVMusignysemiticgoddess

Comments

  • CaeriaCaeria Member Posts: 201
    Actually, this is funny because it reminds me of a monk kit I made for non-EE some years ago. It was fire-based, not lightning, and had a slightly different set of advantages and disadvantages, but some are the same. I also altered the HLA table a bit, meaning, I added in a single, one-time-takeable only, fire-related ability, since I felt it was too powerful to be given as an innate. I can't remember if I got rid of anything or not anymore, and since I'm not home I can't check. I don't know if that's something you might want to consider.

    Personally, I feel the last advantage about every third strike might be a little bit overpowered, but if you like it, feel free to ignore me. I would probably make it a little less often though.

    Other than that, I really like the idea of this kit and think it's pretty well balanced. A lot of advantages, but a decent number of disadvantages to balance it out.

    Also, what about the hell trials? Will the rewards there that add magical and elemental resistance simply not apply?

    CrevsDaaksemiticgoddess
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited January 2016
    5D5 + 10 - I feel that the damage is way too high. With a 19 STR you can deal 25 + 7 + 10 damage, which is 42 damage without a critical hit. If you do manage to score a critical hit you're looking at 67 damage (50 + 10 + 7).

    The disadvantages should also be more rough, in my opinion.

    Disadvantages:

    — Alignment restricted to lawful neutral. Doesn't matter.
    — May not use any other weapon that own fists and feet. Other than the Scarlet Ninja-to I never use weapons on my monk.
    — May not gain any Magic Resistance nor special immunities. The only disadvantage that I feel is major, and even then it isn't that bad, the Magic Resistance does suck to lose.
    — May not spend points in the Find Traps skills. I never use Find Traps on my monks.
    — May not spend any points in Fighting Styles nor Weapon Proficiencies. I don't use weapons, and fists don't need Fighting Styles. This seem redundant when you have the no other weapon than fist above.
    — May not use the Lay on Hands ability. Not major, paladin kits get the same.
    — May not use the Stunning Blow ability. Not major.
    — May not use the Quivering Palm ability. Not major.

    The kit does look interesting though.

    CrevsDaakGrammarsalad
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,156
    edited January 2016
    @Caeria and @SionIV thank you for your input!
    SionIV said:

    5D5 + 10 - I feel that the damage is way too high. With a 19 STR you can deal 25 + 7 + 10 damage, which is 42 damage without a critical hit. If you do manage to score a critical hit you're looking at 67 damage (50 + 10 + 7).

    Yeah, that's what I thought that would be too OP (and, before that, it was 6d5 + 5d4 damage xD but I nerfed it). Do you think I should keep the vanilla Monk damages? I wasn't sure because I found them poor at early levels.
    SionIV said:

    The disadvantages should also be more rough, in my opinion.

    I haven't noted a bunch of differences from this kit and normal Monks on the Disadvantages tab (it's in the Advantages tab only), so here you go:
    — Monks get +1 AC every 2 levels, Thunderfists every 5.
    — Monks get +1 AC Mod. vs Missiles every 3 levels, Thunderfists every 5.
    — Monks gain 1/2 attack per round every 3 levels, Thunderfists every 5 but start with 3/2.

    That, besides no MR, no armour, no shields and no innate immunities, makes of the Thunderfist a real squishy. Anyway, I think you mean in terms of attacking, right? I feel that this kit will have a harder time in early BG1 due to the inability to use ranged weapons.
    Caeria said:


    Also, what about the hell trials? Will the rewards there that add magical and elemental resistance simply not apply?

    No, I meant the innate Monk ones (immunity to Poison, Disease, Charm, Slow, Haste).
    Caeria said:

    Actually, this is funny because it reminds me of a monk kit I made for non-EE some years ago. It was fire-based, not lightning, and had a slightly different set of advantages and disadvantages, but some are the same. I also altered the HLA table a bit, meaning, I added in a single, one-time-takeable only, fire-related ability, since I felt it was too powerful to be given as an innate. I can't remember if I got rid of anything or not anymore, and since I'm not home I can't check. I don't know if that's something you might want to consider.

    Yeah, I could use more inspiration. Also, I don't remember this right... Do Monks kits work in non-EE BG2? o.0
    Caeria said:

    Personally, I feel the last advantage about every third strike might be a little bit overpowered, but if you like it, feel free to ignore me. I would probably make it a little less often though.

    You mean the Haste? Yeah, it's a last-moment addition I wasn't sure about anyway. I also thought on giving the Monk a little Movement Speed increase after the 3rd strike, since I was thinking about removing the innate extra Movement Speed, but I wasn't sure (or making it work only outside of combat, just to travel faster).
    SionIV said:

    The kit does look interesting though.

    Caeria said:

    Other than that, I really like the idea of this kit and think it's pretty well balanced. A lot of advantages, but a decent number of disadvantages to balance it out.

    Thanks! ;D

    Edit: what do you guys think about making the 3rd strike only work on the third strike on one enemy?

    Also, so far the nerfs would be:
    — Less damage from attacks.
    — No Haste after 3rd strike.

    I'll update the OP whenever I change something.

    CaeriaSionIV
  • CaeriaCaeria Member Posts: 201
    I *think* I implemented it as a fighter kit, actually, for simplicity, but it was definitely meant to be used as a monk kit. I'm not that great at coding, so...I think I wasn't sure how to add it in as a monk kit then (or if it was even possible) since there weren't any. If I ever get around to updating it for EE I'll probably have to change that, since I seem to remember having to do some weird things to make it work. Come to think of it, it might not be worth the trouble :smile: Well, we'll see.

    Thanks for clearing that up about the hell trials! I was a bit confused :smile:

    I think your nerfs make the kit a bit more balanced, and more like something I would definitely play :smile: I like powerful characters, but not OP characters...I don't want the equivalent of a KILLSW01 character in the game :smile: Harder-hitting than a regular monk is okay, though.

    I like the idea of the third strike only working against one enemy at a time. That definitely balances it out more. The stun effect is only for a round, so that doesn't bother me so much, plus it allows a save, if a somewhat difficult one. The knockback makes sense and so does the lightning damage, so I'm totally behind that.

    CrevsDaak
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,156
    Caeria said:

    I *think* I implemented it as a fighter kit, actually, for simplicity, but it was definitely meant to be used as a monk kit. I'm not that great at coding, so...I think I wasn't sure how to add it in as a monk kit then (or if it was even possible) since there weren't any. If I ever get around to updating it for EE I'll probably have to change that, since I seem to remember having to do some weird things to make it work. Come to think of it, it might not be worth the trouble :smile: Well, we'll see.

    Yeah, that's what I supposed, because adding Monk kits to non-EE games is imposible (right now it's just matter of adding the kit to the Monk class and giving parent class usability flags).
    Caeria said:

    I like the idea of the third strike only working against one enemy at a time. That definitely balances it out more. The stun effect is only for a round, so that doesn't bother me so much, plus it allows a save, if a somewhat difficult one. The knockback makes sense and so does the lightning damage, so I'm totally behind that.

    I'm not sure how to implement the 3rd strike thing on only one enemy (I could get around by giving the Player a script to do it every time your hit increases a variable and then reset it and apply the effects with a custom spell) other than patching all the scripts or using some smart trickery on the Player script (which means it might be bug-prone). Anyway, do you think it would be better if the save started at +2 (for an easier early-game), and received a -1 every 5 levels (maxing out at -2 at level 20)? It would make it viable in early BG2, super viable for early BG1 and not that overpowered (and even underpowered in the case of ToB) in late BG2.
    Caeria said:

    I think your nerfs make the kit a bit more balanced, and more like something I would definitely play :smile: I like powerful characters, but not OP characters...I don't want the equivalent of a KILLSW01 character in the game :smile: Harder-hitting than a regular monk is okay, though.

    Yup, me too. I'm planning to do a solo no-reload with a PC using this kit, and since I play other games (Pillars, Divinity, League) and don't have that much time anyway (when I'm not on summer vacations...) so I'm only going to do one run, and realising the kit's OP and the game switched from being a challenge to being a cakewalk too late isn't something I would like.

    Caeria
  • CaeriaCaeria Member Posts: 201
    Hmm, I didn't even consider that it might cause bugs...maybe not worth it then. I guess you might have to do some testing :smile: I don't think it's a *crazy* OP ability or anything, at least not in theory. Yeah, I think it would be better to adjust the saves that way. Monks are super weak early on in the game, so it might be nice to have something that makes them not a total drag. They're also generally very powerful by the end of the game, so the stun effect might be overkill anyway. I wouldn't mind the save going a little lower, though, depending on what you think is best.

    Real life is always getting in the way, isn't it? *sigh* I feel like I'm ten times as busy as I was ten years ago. It doesn't sound like an OP kit, but sometimes things are different in execution that you expect, so...anyway, if you want someone else to test it, I'm game. Just let me know :smile:

    CrevsDaak
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited January 2016
    @CrevsDaak

    I would keep him somewhat close to the original monk when it comes to his abilities, but focus on the lightning part of him. Have the normal monk damage but add in the electrical damage. Remove the quivering palm, stunning blow and lay on hands, then add your three electrical abilities instead, but make them a bit weaker than they are.

    You could also add some lightning resistance to him, but reduce another resistance or throw in another disadvantage. One of the special abilities could be a chain lightning hit, if that is possible to make in the engine? Your next attack unleashes a chain lightning on the closest enemies.

    I love the lightning idea and I think that you should keep it and focus on more lightning abilities, but I don't think you should remove too much of the original monk.

    For the electrical damage to your fists, I would do something like.

    +1
    +2
    +2d2
    +2d4
    +2d6

    It would be a bit more interesting to have a dice damage, instead of always the same damage.

    The Defensive Ability could be something like : Lightning Resistance Increased 10/level (up to 100 at level 10), protection from normal missiles and the enemy take 1d4 when they strike you. I would use the same duration on it as the Cleric kits have on their special abilities.

    CrevsDaak
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,156
    SionIV said:

    For the electrical damage to your fists, I would do something like.

    +1
    +2
    +2d2
    +2d4
    +2d6

    It would be a bit more interesting to have a dice damage, instead of always the same damage.

    Nice idea. Thanks for the suggestion, it's in.
    SionIV said:

    The Defensive Ability could be something like : Lightning Resistance Increased 10/level (up to 100 at level 10), protection from normal missiles and the enemy take 1d4 when they strike you. I would use the same duration on it as the Cleric kits have on their special abilities.

    I've made it 5/level up to 125 at level 25 (so Lightning can heal you), it gives you a 2d4 Lightning Fireshield, and makes you immune to Slow (which is... Not very important given that nobody uses the spell in vanilla IIRC). I was thinking about adding a Movement Speed bonus, but I'm not sure.
    Caeria said:

    Hmm, I didn't even consider that it might cause bugs...maybe not worth it then. I guess you might have to do some testing :smile:

    Yup. I think I can get around using local variables on creatures (RAM usage will double basically, but that's none of my business!) applied each hit, and have an internal counter to check when 3 hits have been made. If the last-attacked-by-ourselves creature has 3 charges, we blow 'em up and apply the effect. If it's not doable I'll change it to every 4th (to balance it a bit) hit and done.
    Caeria said:

    It doesn't sound like an OP kit, but sometimes things are different in execution that you expect, so...anyway, if you want someone else to test it, I'm game. Just let me know :smile:

    Yup. I think it'll be very strong for the hit-and-run tactic, but I'd have to test that out first. Thanks, if I ever need some more testing I'll tell ya' ;)

    So I've updated the OP:
    — Capped the Speed Factor at -4 at level 15.
    — Capped the uses of Spiritual Thunderstorm at 1 (gained at level 1).
    — Changed the lightning damage dealt every 3rd hit, and base damage nerfed to the vanilla Monk's.
    — Removed vanilla Monk Saving Throws bonus at level 9 and the +2 vs Spells. (I'm not sure about this.)
    — Noted a bunch of differences already noted in this comment, but they're now in the kit description.
    — Added the Defensive and Offensive abilities.

    SionIVCaeria
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,328
    CrevsDaak said:

    Yup. I think I can get around using local variables on creatures (RAM usage will double basically, but that's none of my business!) applied each hit, and have an internal counter to check when 3 hits have been made. If the last-attacked-by-ourselves creature has 3 charges, we blow 'em up and apply the effect. If it's not doable I'll change it to every 4th (to balance it a bit) hit and done.

    You don't need to use local variables/scripting for this. You can use sequencer's(vanilla/EE) or custom spellstate checks (EE only). For example, the Death Fog spell in IWDEE uses the spellstate check method to cause increased damage per round the longer you are in the fog, but if you are out of the fog for more than one round the damage amount resets.

    As for Fists - you do not specify whether/when their fists will improve enchantment level or if they get the +to-hit and/or damage to go with it.

    CrevsDaak
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,027
    @CrevsDaak
    I cannot comment on how well your kit is balanced but i just want to say that a monk kit is welcome.
    It may not go well with your own kit flavour but I have always thought that the oversight mod implemented a really cool idea : grant Balthazar's power as HLAs. And it probably requires a refresh ... just in case it gives you a new idea.

    CrevsDaak
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,156
    kjeron said:

    CrevsDaak said:

    Yup. I think I can get around using local variables on creatures (RAM usage will double basically, but that's none of my business!) applied each hit, and have an internal counter to check when 3 hits have been made. If the last-attacked-by-ourselves creature has 3 charges, we blow 'em up and apply the effect. If it's not doable I'll change it to every 4th (to balance it a bit) hit and done.

    You don't need to use local variables/scripting for this. You can use sequencer's(vanilla/EE) or custom spellstate checks (EE only). For example, the Death Fog spell in IWDEE uses the spellstate check method to cause increased damage per round the longer you are in the fog, but if you are out of the fog for more than one round the damage amount resets.
    Nice idea, thanks for the suggestion. I had forgotten about this D:
    kjeron said:

    As for Fists - you do not specify whether/when their fists will improve enchantment level or if they get the +to-hit and/or damage to go with it.

    Oh, I forgot about that. It's the same as vanilla Monk's. I'll update it later.
    Musigny said:

    It may not go well with your own kit flavour but I have always thought that the oversight mod implemented a really cool idea : grant Balthazar's power as HLAs. And it probably requires a refresh ... just in case it gives you a new idea.

    I'm going to add a few HLAs, but haven't thought any of them yet, and I'll like to make them as distinctive as possible, anyway, any suggestions are welcome (and yes, I could add some, specially the Kick one).

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,156
    edited February 2017
    OK, more than a year's gone by, and I've done more progress on this (well, on the description at least).
    CrevsDaak said:

    kjeron said:

    As for Fists - you do not specify whether/when their fists will improve enchantment level or if they get the +to-hit and/or damage to go with it.

    Oh, I forgot about that. It's the same as vanilla Monk's. I'll update it later.
    Uhm, actually I forgot about this again. Will do, but now, here's the updated description (check OP :p )

    What does the world think about it?

    Edit: I forgot to clarify--the Stances are exclusive, they're intended to be used in different situations. I'm not sure how I'll handle this (I have two options, like SCS implements Shapeshifting, or like vanilla does), but the ideas are there.

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