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Combat strategy: fun ways to deal with controls?

Playing to BG2:EE after BG1:EE, I'm quite surprised to see how many control spells my party have to face each fight.
Fighter class foes are not even remotely a problem if you can manage to not have you party completly incapacited by a spell of sorts... and even the biggest fireballs are not even remotely scaring compared to a Chaos or a Imprisonement.

It occurs to me that the art of strategy in BG2 is almost only about how you deal with controls.

Reading guides and walkthroughs, I see that the communauty mainly use 2 strategies for that:
- Party buffing/dispelling: have a mage/cleric cast spells that renders you immune to some effects, dispel whatever is left
- Solo bunkering: play only one real aventurer, give him all the immunity items you can find (or make him a monk with 100% magic resist) and use a few scrolls/spells to fill the gaps (imprisonement anyone?)



But I wonder: aren't there other strategies possible to deal with controls?

In BG1:EE, I used a party of 2 fighters (Jaheira and Khalid) and 4 mages and just hammered every caster with a shower of magic missiles and contingent acid arrows x2, preventing them to cast a single spell.
It was both fun and efficient but it doesn't work well anymore in BG2:EE due to having surnatural enemies that you cannot interrupt, or mages using chain contingencies to raise anti-spell defenses you need to dispel first


There are two uncommon strategies I can think about:

- Shadowdancing:
Using the shadowdancer class, backstab caster, shadow step, backstab caster, shadow step, rince repeat. Use the shadowstep to run out of sight and rest if needed.
There could be ways to chain backstab casters with a thief/mage using mislead too, but mislead triggers contingencies of other mages, so you could have to face a stoneskin or two
Also, so foes are immune to backstab (*sigh* I miss the epic feat of DD3 that allows to backstab undead and golems)

- Summoned army:
Create a constant flow of summoned critters until the ennemy run out of spells. Could work great with a sorcerer, except for surnatural ennemies who have no casting limit (Beholders?)
Also, I don't really know if there is a limit of summons you can have at a time? By BG1:EE I had Dynaheir summon 7 critters are once, dunno how it works in BG2:EE


I'm curious to know if other players had come with more original ways to deal with controls spells in this game

Comments

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    edited February 2016
    Xan. Greater Malison. Glitterdust.

    Now you can choose what to do if those little helpless bastards.

    Confusion, Dire Charm, Charm Person, Sleep, Domination, Hold Person, your call.

    Xan is all the crowd crontrol you'll need along BGEE. Except for Tazok's tent he single handed all the bandit camp, putting them to fight each other.

    Post edited by Raduziel on
    JuliusBorisov
  • Summons can definitely help, although you have to be careful that they don't draw the caster forward into your party. You can also make the interrupting strategy work with some modifications. Poisonous and elemental damage weapons work through stoneskin, so as long as you can Breach any mantles or Protection from Magical Weapons, you can use Darts of Wounding, Arrows of Biting, etc. to create disruptions. Some casters do use scripts that make them uninterruptible, but most can be disrupted in this manner.

    As Raduziel describes, you can also control them before they control you. Chaos is the gold standard for this because it comes with a significant save penalty and is a fifth level spell. You don't always have time to debuff their saves first, so the save penalty gives you a decent chance of succeeding without help, and being a fifth level spell means Chaos cannot be stopped by Globe of Invulnerability, which will stop lower level spells like Hold Person and Charm.

    Another strategy you can employ is save buffing. Just about every controlling effect allows a save vs. spell to resist, so the higher you can buff that save, the less you have to worry about controls. Chant, Improved Invisibility, Protection items, and Spirit Armor all improve the chances of ignoring spells, potentially even driving your saves into the negatives, where you always succeed unless debuffed. This is more viable as your levels hit the higher teens and your natural saves are better, but it's a good secondary line of defense even early on in case your efforts to keep the spell from casting in the first place fail.
    JuliusBorisovdunbar
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    Raduziel said:

    ...

    Totaly out of topic. I'm talking about how to protect myself from controls in BG2EE, not how to control others in BG1EE
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    Just to be clear: I was talking about crowd control. Those tactics are useful against a bunch of (as @Pantalion says) "lowly peons". Like in bandit camp.

    If you see a spellcaster in the battlefield you hit him first, you hit him hard, and you don't stop hitting him until he stops moving for at least 12 seconds. The because 1) spellcasters have a good save vs. spell and 2) they'll probably try to CC you party.

    Actually, this tread remembered me of a wizard my PnP group faced. He was some kind of egomaniac that won't "dirty his hands with pitiful warriors and thieves". So he only used spells against our group's wizard and cleric. The rest of us was usually fighting hordes of summon, bunch of undead or, not rare, each other.

    Six years has passed and I still hate that bastard to the guts.

    Pantalion
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    You can't hit first a spellcaster that have contingency: stoneskin. He will just laugh at the assault long enough to cast it's control... or shadow door, or mislead... or whatever.
    Also, it's not sufficient when there is 4 spellcasters in the opposing group.
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,603
    Dorn + Firetooth + Poison Weapon = Dead Mage.
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Mmm poisoned physical projectiles... not a bad idea. :)

    But isn't it going to be slightly hard to deal with 3/4 ennemy spellcaster this way?
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    So be it:

    Poison Weapon + Arrow of Detonation

    Poison Weapon + Tuigan's Bow

    Chaotic Commands

    Greenstone Amulet

    Any weapon with an elemental damage to keep hitting the wizard through stoneskin

    Magic Missiles. Melf's Acid Arrow.
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Those ennemies often have spell turning. But missile weapons with poison or elemental damage would still probably get through.
    That leaves only one problem: what about foes that cast control as part of a surnatural ability, and thus, cannot be interrupted?
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    Raduziel said:



    Chaotic Commands

    Greenstone Amulet

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Raduziel, you didn't read the subject at all, did you?
  • ithildurnewithildurnew Member Posts: 273
    edited February 2016
    :neutral: Alright, easy there space cowboy.

    To be fair the original post (as well as the 'subject') is ... a little confusing to read; I'm guessing it's partly because you aren't a native English speaker.

    Aren't you asking for suggestions on how to deal with enemies that use a lot of crowd control spells/abilites? (when I first read 'controls' in the title I thought you might mean game controls btw; the terminology you want is 'crowd control') Because if so, Raduziel's suggestions of Chaotic Commands and Greenstone amulet definitely can be helpful.

    There are a myraid of ways to deal with crowd control spells/effects, but what exactly are you looking for if chaotic commands and greenstone ammy don't qualify as good responses for you?
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    I'm going to auto-quote myself a bit there:
    Moonheart said:

    Reading guides and walkthroughs, I see that the communauty mainly use 2 strategies for that:
    - Party buffing/dispelling: have a mage/cleric cast spells that renders you immune to some effects, dispel whatever is left
    - Solo bunkering: play only one real aventurer, give him all the immunity items you can find (or make him a monk with 100% magic resist) and use a few scrolls/spells to fill the gaps (imprisonement anyone?)

    But I wonder: aren't there other strategies possible to deal with controls?
    (...)

    I'm curious to know if other players had come with more original ways to deal with controls spells in this game

  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    (double post)
  • ithildurnewithildurnew Member Posts: 273
    edited February 2016
    Hm... 'more original' is rather subjective, to say the least. There's hundreds of ways to deal with Crowd Control foes depending on difficulty setting, mods, party composition, levels/stage of game, etc etc etc. I'm not sure who's qualified to judge some as more original than others, but... maybe this is the kind of shtick that tickles your fancy:

    Trump enemy CCers by using the most broken CC item in the game to outCC them:

    grab the mindflayer control circlets, use it on an enemy that likes to CC. Then use your newest minion to use all their CC on his former allies.

    Pretty cheesy, but limited use per game since you only get a few of these items (unless vanilla BG2EE still allows simulacri/images to use quickslotted items, in which case you can cheese this all through late SoA and beyond... ugh...), maybe this qualifies as 'more original' to you.




  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    More original like in "not like what I just described above"
  • ithildurnewithildurnew Member Posts: 273
    edited February 2016

    There's hundreds of ways to deal with Crowd Control foes depending on difficulty setting, mods, party composition, levels/stage of game, etc etc etc.

    Yes, there certainly are many 'other strategies possible'...
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Ok, I forfeiting.
  • ithildurnewithildurnew Member Posts: 273
    :smiley: Well I didn't want to be antagonistic but your response to Raduziel kind of made me want to stick up on his behalf... Let's call a truce.
    semiticgoddess
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Your truce won't restore that thread to a clean state.
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    Moonheart said:

    Raduziel said:

    ...

    Totaly out of topic. I'm talking about how to protect myself from controls in BG2EE, not how to control others in BG1EE
    @Moonheart Just answering this :smile:
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    The topic is ALSO talking about doing it in an original way.

    oh god... please, make me a favor, don't answer me ever again.
    You don't undertstand a word of what I'm writing, and I'm turning nuts trying to explain it to you
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    Dude, you don't need to act like that. I was trying to help you and act according to the Be Excellent to Each Other policy.

    It's not my fault if you can't make yourself clear. Despite the way you expressed yourself I've trying to give you a little hand.

    But don't worry, fellow. I won't be answering you again. Enjoy your tread and your game, if you ever need anything from me feel free to ask. Just make sure that you asking in a proper way - a politely for starts.

    Cheers. :smile:
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    No, I won't ask you anything, because my total incompetence to find terms more clear than "other strategies", "BG2" and "control spells my party have to face" will prevent me to ask something intelligibly to such a perfect fellow like you.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    If you want, @Raduziel and @Moonheart and @ithildurnew , I can delete additional/off-topic posts so that the tread will be much clearer. Or if you want we can close this thread so that you could start a new one.
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited February 2016
    According to them, the problem comes from my original post, so delete off-topic answers won't help.
    Just close the thread and let it sink.
    JuliusBorisov
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Control spells?

    Polymorph Self: Mustard Jelly scoffs at your control spells. And all your other spells. And pretty much everything, actually. Jelly up and beat them down.

    Animate Dead: Can't confuse them, can't scare them, can't charm them. Shout "wise fwom youw gwave" while doing it for a +1 old school bonus and watch them take down anything that relies on enchantment spells, you probably won't even need more than one.


    Also very worth considering is doing unto others before they do unto you. As Raduziel said, a good offence is a great tactic for dealing with enemy mages. A confused mage is generally not a mage that's casting a lot of spells, and even a capped mage has a 50% base chance of failing their save against Spook, which has a cast time of 1 to get it out before most AOE crowd controls and buys you three rounds of them running around in terror to wear through stoneskins, wait out PfMWs, and clear away mirror images. Later on, Power Word Blind can absolutely shut down a mage and stop them getting out their own crowd control spells, and it's an AOE so it even works against an invisible target.


    Hit and run tactics also work very well against mages in general, especially supported by snares, which can have nasty effects from poison damage each round to flat out killing them as they try to chase after you. Mages generally won't chase you if they lose sight while casting, so if you bolt as soon as you see that suspicious looking cleric start casting and it turns out to be a Hold Person spell then even if you fail your save you have a good chance of being safe from reprisal, or at very least in a much less perilous position so your allies can save you more easily.


    Don't underestimate good old fashioned tactical cowardice, either. If a mage starts casting a spell you probably won't be able to disrupt, just scatter. You'll be able to see which partymate he's facing and can move them away and/or chug an invisibility potion to break the spell, and if they fail a save, so be it, it's just them on their own. With boots of speed you can even kite the projectile for certain spells after they're cast, potentially saving your entire party.
    RaduzielFinneousPJ
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