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The best "gish" protagonist?

I found some imput on the topic about tank protagonist interesting, so I'm curious to know what people would say to be the best class for a Gish protonagonist

For a remainder, a gish is a Githyanki Fighter/Wizard combination, but one a larger sense, refers to any characting using arcane magic to enhance his own personnal combat capacities (through buffing) in order to make himself even deadlier with his weapons.

There are several possibilities to mix weapon play and magic in BG2, so I think it could be an interesting discussion

Comments

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    The best Fighter/Mage?
    Berzerker/Kensai (13)=>Mage
    Potentially F/M/T if using Mislead+backstab
    There is little to no debate on this one, other fighter kits and F/M are straight off less good.
  • dracostrikedracostrike Member Posts: 151
    Definitely fighter/Mage. Yeah, I don't see much debate on this, other than if berserker or kensai so would be the better kit
  • MMMMKMMMMK Member Posts: 30
    Why go for a dual over a multi? I'd rather have the fighter HLAs, myself.

    Elf F/M, Timestop GWW go go go go

    Berserker immunities are nice but can mostly be covered by other party members and/or Slayer.
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    I don't think Fighter / Mage needs GWW, personaly. You can do the same, for several rounds, with Improved Haste
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    MMMMK wrote: »
    Why go for a dual over a multi? I'd rather have the fighter HLAs, myself.

    Elf F/M, Timestop GWW go go go go

    Berserker immunities are nice but can mostly be covered by other party members and/or Slayer.

    Because Fighter dualed into Mage with Belm offhand and Black blade of disaster gets 5APR already (could consider Crom Faeyr offhand as well once you get Gloves of extraordinary specialization, you get 4.5APR with 25str) and can complete with Improved haste for 10 or 9APR, which is much like permanent GWW.
    Berserker gets huge immunities and some additional damage, while kensai gets additional damage and Kai, which is just awesome with BBoD (considering the 2D12 damage).
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    Honestly, I tend to rate gishs by their sustained damage than by their burst damage.

    Yes, that's wonderful to do thousand of damage in a few rounds... but what good it makes if it makes you rest at each fight? You're not progressing in the game faster this way than by getting a tad less DPS, but without depleting yourself at each encounter with weaklings



  • MMMMKMMMMK Member Posts: 30
    edited March 2016
    Yes, it's true that you can simulate GWW by dual wielding a +apr weapon and using Improved Haste, but you're still missing out on both Hardiness and Critical Strike.

    Not to mention that you might want to use two handed weapons for various reasons... (although, Black Blade of Disaster is pretty cool)

    How does Kensai Kai work out damage-wise vs someone using Critical Strike against an opponent without a helmet?

    *edit
    Forgot to add that with Belm in the offhand, two of your attacks are at +2 and might not be able to hit whatever it is you're swinging at.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    edited March 2016
    MMMMK wrote: »
    Yes, it's true that you can simulate GWW by dual wielding a +apr weapon and using Improved Haste, but you're still missing out on both Hardiness and Critical Strike.

    Not to mention that you might want to use two handed weapons for various reasons... (although, Black Blade of Disaster is pretty cool)

    How does Kensai Kai work out damage-wise vs someone using Critical Strike against an opponent without a helmet?

    *edit
    Forgot to add that with Belm in the offhand, two of your attacks are at +2 and might not be able to hit whatever it is you're swinging at.

    Well, in the end you should have BBoD in mainhand and Crom Faeyr in offhand.
    Let's do the maths now:
    The most damaging Two handed weapon is Staff of the Ram+6, with an average 18 damage.
    The most damaging one-handed weapon is, if elemental damages are appliable, Flail of Ages+5 with an average 19,5 damage but a free action effect that forbids haste (but allows GWW). Behind that comes BBoD with an average 18. It gives Grandmastery (or will by next week, since right now it does not but it should, and will be fixed with 2.0), which makes it an effective 21 for a F/M multi (a F/M multi is limited to specialization, which is +2 bonus damage, compared to +5 (Grandmastery)). In the end the best weapon still is BBoD, even for a F/M.
    Its best DPS is thus achieved when using GWW and BBoD, and it is 18(BBoD)+10(22STR from belt)+5(Grandmastery)+2(gloves) which is 35 per hit on average, 350 on a full round

    A berserker (13)=>Mage with Crom Faeyr offhand and improved haste will have:
    7Mainhand attack: 18+14(25 STR)+5+2+2(Berserker rage): 41 per hit
    2Offhand attacks: 13(Crom Faeyr)+14+5+2+2: 36 per hit.
    Overall, 359 damages, slightly better than F/M
    A Kensai(13)=>Mage with the same setup will deal 377 on average without Kai, and 425 with Kai, which is much more than F/M.



    Not to mention GWW takes a spellcast, while F=>M duals can just prebuff and occasionnally recast haste and be able to cast defensive spells without lowering their damage output.
    Post edited by Arunsun on
  • SkaroseSkarose Member Posts: 247
    Multiclass Fighter/Mage, from BGEE to ToB, you are the true scion of murder. I like my Gish death machine with elf flavorings, but the F/M power in game is such that it really doesn't matter how you flavor them, they will always dominate every encounter and win. Dual class can be interesting, but with down time while you wait for your Mage level to catch up and the power of Fighter HLAs which you miss out on in ToB, the dual class just falls short.

    Elf +1 Long Short Swords Bows (Just flavoring)

    Gnome Shorty Saves and Illusion Specialization (Just flavoring)

    Half Elf Looks like an elf has infravision, no real bonuses but can RP angsty very well (Just flavoring)

    Fighter/Mage multiclass is the only part that really matters, best Gish hands down!
  • While the dual-class is admittedly a very powerful character, I feel like the multiclass is a better fit for the gish conceptually. The dual-class does some weapons training, says "Okay, that's about enough of that," and starts studying magic and never looks back. The multiclass actually develops the two skills in tandem.
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    I still wonder about THAC0 issues.

    Yes, naturally, during a Time Stop it doesn't matter much... however, besides that, even including its bonus, a kensai 13/mage X will have its base Thac0 capped to 8 and even with its bonus (+4, thus a Thac0 of 4) it doesn't compare to a Fighter/Mage that end to a Thac0 of -4

    Is it only because of what he can do during Time Stop that people see in the Kensai/Mage something better than the Fighter/Mage, or I am missing some point?
  • I think after a certain point THAC0 stops mattering. First off, that THAC0 of 4 will be further improved by Strength (at least +3 with equipment), Grandmastery (+3), and your weapon's enchantment (+5), giving you a THAC0 somewhere around -7 (and you may have buffs pushing it even lower). When you then take into account that even the toughest enemies in ToB only have an AC of around -12, you can see that you're not going to miss much.

    Furthermore, if you do run into an enemy you have trouble hitting, you can always use Critical Strike, because regardless of whether or not they have a helmet, it still gives you a round of auto-hits.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    In BG2 campaign, I believe the lowest AC you meet is -12, which means a -11 would be enough to hit everyone everytime except on a critical hit.
    A level 13 Kensai has a base Thac0 of 4 (8,-4 thanks to kensai bonuses).
    With 25STR, a +5 weapon with grandmastery and gloves, you are down to -12, which is enough
    A raging Berzerker would have -10, which is quite sufficient as well.
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited March 2016
    Mmm I see. So opponents of ToB have a dreaful THAC0 but are gimps when it comes to AC... making THAC0 as irrelevant than AC... that game is not very well balanced...

    Which leave the damage topic:

    We almost all think to use Crom Frayer for obvious reasons, which is 25 STR, thus, +14 damage.

    K13/M:
    - Grand Mastery: +5
    - Kit bonus: +4

    F/M:
    - Specialization: +2
    - Gloves: +2

    So K13/M gets +23, and F/M gets +18... on the paper, damage seems to be on the K13/M side... but:
    - Kai only double the average base damage of a weapon
    - Critical Strike double the average base damage of a weapon, but also bonus damage
    ... thus, at the end, K13/M gets +23 and F/M get +36 against everything that doesn't have an helmet

    I still think a F/M is better at melee than a K13/M by the end of the game
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    Relevant enemies are immune to critical strike though
  • matricematrice Member Posts: 86
    edited March 2016
    Or you play K21/M22

    In a party of 3 it's quite easy to get that 8M xp in soa, and as far as i remember, in a party of 4 you can do so too.
    You'll also have the most destructive power for a round, crit + kai in the same round (thx alacrity).
    I'm not even sure you lose somthing that valuable as a mage compare to K13/M
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    I wonder something: with the upcoming fix of BBoD, will it be possible to reach 11APR ?
    Using BBoD, Belm, and GoEWS...
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Moonheart AFAIK 10 is the hard limit.
  • MMMMKMMMMK Member Posts: 30
    Yep, you can't exceed 5 base and Improved Haste just doubles your APR, so 10 is the max.
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    kk
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