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RIP BG3 (Open letter to the community based on SoD)

TriaxxTriaxx Member Posts: 56
So as you're probably aware, a character was included in the new release that happened to be transgender.Between some people not liking trans people in general, to others finding the character poorly written, and even more so, several, ACTUAL trans people (whom I very much thank for speaking up) finding the character to be an unnecessary and patronizing addition, all anyone is talking about in regards to the new release is this character.


Regardless of your stance, as you can see, this is singlehandedly tanking reviews.

Which is also tanking my hopes of further releases.


It doesn't help that we are seeing statements by Beamdog affiliates that demonize and dismiss the concerns of others being posted on social media, nor that the majority of arguments I hear would land you an F in any intro philosophy/ethics/critical reasoning course.

Now, I posted about this in other threads already but I can see they are being deleted so I'll spell it out again right here.

Honestly, the lack of civility and good will to having an honest discussion about this is appalling. In my own opinion, I do find this character to be poorly written and quite obviously an attempt to be inclusive. Is inclusivity a bad thing? No, but there is a problem with how you do it. We can see that there are devs who are very openly admitting to having PC agendas, such Amber Scott and her feelings of sexism being present (which I find absurd and over sensitive). As I've also said, there are beamdog affiliates going on the record to accuse any who voice criticism as being "gamergate supporters" who aren't "real fans".

Not to mention the fact that yes, this dialogue reads like the most cringe inducing workplace sensitivity training video. You're given a choice between being absurdly polite and....being absurdly polite and praising her as the REAL hero in this story. Granted, this is such a minor character I didn't even notice on my first playthrough, which is very telling in and of itself.

Now, does any of this really matter? It shouldn't, but it does.

I assume this was done with the perception of goodwill, but ended up making our trans community members feel patronized and politicized, which I can tell you, just like with veterans, nobody likes being made a political tool for your own good-feelies and social praise. And since there is obvious prejudice against the trans community, many people are indeed making a fuss other the pure fact a trans person even be included, which is just as disappointing. It also makes these trans individuals feel like a target is being painted on them, which doesn't make them feel "included", but quite the opposite.

I mean honestly, you can't make people feel like they're normal and "one of us" if you stand next to them and go "HEY EVERYONE LOOK HOW NORMAL THIS PERSON IS. AREN'T THEY SO WONDERFULLY HUMAN LIKE YOU AND ME?. EXCUSE ME DID YOU NOTICE HOW BRAVE AND WONDERFUL AND NORMAL THIS PERSON IS? CAN YOU HEAR ME STROKING MY EGO ON HOW ACCEPTING I AM OF THIS TOTALLY NORMAL PERSON THAT IS JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE?"

The real problem with this is that both "sides" lack any desire to have an honest discussion about how we include trans characters in our games. Using them as a pander and political tool isn't the way to do it. Responding to it with bigotry is equally destructive and detestable.


Do I recommend the character be removed? No. Rewritten? Probably.

Do I also recommend we all grow up, admit we aren't automatically right in our initial opinions, and ACT CIVIL in how we handle this?

For the sake of BG3, damn straight I do.
Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
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Comments

  • helmo1977helmo1977 Member Posts: 364
    Amen
  • DabusDabus Member Posts: 27
    Triaxx said:

    So as you're probably aware, a character was included in the new release that happened to be transgender.Between some people not liking trans people in general, to others finding the character poorly written, and even more so, several, ACTUAL trans people (whom I very much thank for speaking up) finding the character to be an unnecessary and patronizing addition, all anyone is talking about in regards to the new release is this character.

    Not quite something I expected, but I've actually seen at least one trans person on Twitter and another on a different forum saying they didn't like the character for the reason it was patronizing. Not sure how I feel about that but they make some legitimate points.
  • AutocratAutocrat Member Posts: 68
    Well put, Triaxx. I'd love to see a rewritten, improved, and expanded upon Mizhena.
  • ZeshinXZeshinX Member Posts: 88
    Such matters will never be "normalized" until such time as it's not even worth talking about and "just is". I find the whole thing a complete waste of time really.
  • DabusDabus Member Posts: 27
    Torin said:

    can people finally stop opening same topics every 10 minutes. This is ridiculous.

    People are upset - men, women, trans, PoC - about the issue. It's unfortunate but a lot of people (yes, there are a lot - it's not just a handfull) want to express how they feel about it and maybe developers need to listen up more - well, to the more rational, less vitriolic opinions against these decisions, that is.

    Personally, I'm open to purchasing the game and basing it on its merits such as the gameplay, story, etc. I'm not running to give it negative reviews especially if the game is good. And I'm willing to see a BG3 or another D&D game, but maybe with people voicing their disdain for SoD, developers will listen and come to an understanding.
  • MushroomKingMushroomKing Member Posts: 3
    Question, isn't the goal of a trans person to be seen as the gender they feel like.

    Question, isn't pointing out that a trans person is trans directly against what that person wants.

    Question, how can people receive browny points for writing good trans characters if the player doesn't even notice they are trans...?

    That's probably the question the writer asked herself, before she decided to say "fuck it, i'll just force this needles exposition on the player and because I don't want them to react in a way I don't like I'm gonna limit their response to something I approve of!".

    Pathetic.
  • dluxdlux Member Posts: 13
    I hate to say this, but I think you can now bury any hope of BG3 from Beamdog after this shitstorm. :(

    I do truly hope that Beamdog will be able to redeem themselves if they "fix" the game though.
  • JoJoJoJo Member Posts: 18
    bengoshi said:

    I simply cannot see how one minor side NPC, even with a gender thing about her, can influence the existance of BGNext.

    What I do think can influence that existance is:

    - how many improvements to the engine SoD brings;
    - what ideas were used for the gameplay;
    - are new party NPCs popular among players;
    - do new mods appear after the SoD release;
    - how SoD sells;
    - what are critics' reviews.

    Quite simple, the evidence this NPC provides about the writing direction, that and the posts and actions of the devs around this debacle.

    As for how SoD sells, I'm pretty sure the refund system on steam is getting a workout now.
  • dluxdlux Member Posts: 13


    Seeya. Bioware did a Trans character in their last game and their games sells like gangbusters

    Dragon Age: Inquisition didn't do so well to be honest... But to be fair that actually had a lot more to with the lackluster gameplay.

  • bluntfeatherbluntfeather Member Posts: 61
    I dont think Inquisition is on steam either, that probably hurt.
  • AWizardDidItAWizardDidIt Member Posts: 197


    The poor writing, lack of innovation, and general low quality of work might however.

    If that was the case yes, but overall the quality of writing is quite great in SoD. And unless you can quote a piece of prose from it that you feel is lackluster, I'm inclined to think you are just spouting boilerplate rhetoric without actual knowledge of the writing of the game.
  • AWizardDidItAWizardDidIt Member Posts: 197
    dlux said:


    Seeya. Bioware did a Trans character in their last game and their games sells like gangbusters

    Dragon Age: Inquisition didn't do so well to be honest... But to be fair that actually had a lot more to with the lackluster gameplay.

    EA claimed Dragon Age Inquisition had the highest selling launch in Bioware's history and a sequel to it was already confirmed shortly after release, so that's flat out wrong.
  • silveralensilveralen Member Posts: 15
    dlux said:


    Seeya. Bioware did a Trans character in their last game and their games sells like gangbusters

    Dragon Age: Inquisition didn't do so well to be honest... But to be fair that actually had a lot more to with the lackluster gameplay.

    Also the fact that a something like a decade of work isn't enough to create hair that doesn't look like it belongs on a lego.
  • dluxdlux Member Posts: 13

    dlux said:


    Seeya. Bioware did a Trans character in their last game and their games sells like gangbusters

    Dragon Age: Inquisition didn't do so well to be honest... But to be fair that actually had a lot more to with the lackluster gameplay.

    EA claimed Dragon Age Inquisition had the highest selling launch in Bioware's history and a sequel to it was already confirmed shortly after release, so that's flat out wrong.
    Then give me the actual sales numbers. EA always releases sales numbers of blockbusters to please their shareholders.

    Oh wait, there aren't any. Probably because it sold worse than the predecessors.
  • jankieljankiel Member Posts: 127
    edited April 2016
    dlux said:


    Seeya. Bioware did a Trans character in their last game and their games sells like gangbusters

    Dragon Age: Inquisition didn't do so well to be honest...

    Wat? DAI was the best of the series in terms of sold copies. Tough I dislike their overall direction of the franchise I must admit that their success was very impressive at the time.
  • AWizardDidItAWizardDidIt Member Posts: 197
    edited April 2016
    EA doesn't release sales numbers for anything, but the fact that they green-lit a sequel already implies it was very profitable. EA tends to throw out IP if it's not successful. Look at the fate of Dead Space for recent proof of that.
  • helmo1977helmo1977 Member Posts: 364
    edited April 2016

    Question, isn't the goal of a trans person to be seen as the gender they feel like.

    Question, isn't pointing out that a trans person is trans directly against what that person wants.

    Question, how can people receive browny points for writing good trans characters if the player doesn't even notice they are trans...?

    That's probably the question the writer asked herself, before she decided to say "fuck it, i'll just force this needles exposition on the player and because I don't want them to react in a way I don't like I'm gonna limit their response to something I approve of!".

    Pathetic.

    The writer could have presented the character much better. I dont think any transexual person, well most of them, and several people who posted here confirmed my previous opinion, would openly talk of her/his change of gender with the first stranger that talks to him. If you want to make a transexual person visible in the game, I think it is much better, because it feels far more natural, to make a quest about him/her. With confidence it could tell his/her story. The quest could even be related to his/her change of gender, as someone posted. After all there is a very popular magical item that does exactly that in the game.

  • dluxdlux Member Posts: 13
    edited April 2016

    EA doesn't release sales numbers for anything, but the fact that they green-lit a sequel already implies it was very profitable. EA tends to throw out IP if it's not successful. Look at the fate of Dead Space for recent proof of that.

    Yes they do. Like they did for DA:O because it sold like hot cakes. Unlike DA:I. Not to mention that DA2 sold badly and it got a sequel anyway.
  • AWizardDidItAWizardDidIt Member Posts: 197
    DA2 sold less than Origins but was still considered successful. DAI sold better than DA2. What's your point?
  • dluxdlux Member Posts: 13

    DAI sold better than DA2.

    Oh really? I had no idea. Official numbers please.

  • marcerormarceror Member Posts: 577
    OMG. I popped in just to see what the buzz was on the latest Beamdog release, and can only sit here in disbelief. I'm not at a point that I can form a coherent opinion about what's going on, but I'm saddened to see that it is.

    Best wishes to Beamdog, and good luck on getting this somehow sorted out.
  • jankieljankiel Member Posts: 127
    dlux said:

    DAI sold better than DA2.

    Oh really? I had no idea. Official numbers please.

    Dragon Age: Inquisition debuted at No. 5 in UK in its first launch week. According to retail monitor Chart-Track, it had sold almost the exact amount of launch week copies as 2011's Dragon Age II.[104] This does not take into account direct digital download sales however,[105] which have been noted to be a "significant percentage of sales" by BioWare[106] and thus the true number of sales is higher. According to Electronic Arts' fiscal 2015 third quarter earnings report, Dragon Age: Inquisition is the most successful launch in BioWare history based on units sold.[107]

    http://www.pcgamer.com/dragon-age-inquisition-had-most-successful-launch-in-bioware-history/
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