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How to ruin "Baldur's Gate"

forumguy5272forumguy5272 Member Posts: 37
in Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear
1. Create a perfectly fine expansion pack that has better environments and better writing than BG1 or BG2.
2. Have one character make a joke, and another character admit to being transgender.
3. Get hate mail.
4. Cave.
5. Vow to remove the joke.
6. Vow to not write trans characters so poorly in the future, even though there was *nothing wrong* with this one.

So once again the people that were quietly enjoying the game and not taking issue with anything at all... now have something to take issue with, because they weren't bothered until the creators of the game that was fine *as is* aside from bug-squishing and further engine/UI improvements, decided to change something that wasn't problematic at all.

How the heck can I take this game, or I guess *any* game these days given what just happened with Overwatch, with *any* salt when all it takes is a very loud minority to force changes the rest of us don't even think need to be made?
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Comments

  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96
    David_Gaider said:

    forumguy5272 said:

    How the heck can I take this game, or I guess *any* game these days given what just happened with Overwatch, with *any* salt when all it takes is a very loud minority to force changes the rest of us don't even think need to be made?

    I'm not sure anyone can *force* the team to make changes they don't wish to make.

    Ultimately, all post-release changes that aren't purely bug-fixes are going to come about as a result of people asking for them -- whether it be in the form of complaints, polite suggestions, or frothing-at-the-mouth angry rants. Normally it's easier to catch flies with honey, but I think it would be kind of foolish for a developer to enter into a kind of brinkmanship with their own fans when it comes to things they could soberly look at and say, "yes, this probably should be changed".

    Naturally the way this all came about is going to make people suspect our motives, and so be it. Ultimately all I can do is assure you that Trent and the SoD team made that sober assessment and will proceed from there.
    Thank you for this response. Many people on the forums are intimating that it is simply impossible that the team looked at their writing and simply said "well, yeah we can see where some people are coming from."

  • forumguy5272forumguy5272 Member Posts: 37
    edited April 2016
    There's a difference between changing what's been done to improve gameplay, and changing what's been done to redefine a character. How can I get immersed with anything in the game world if all it takes for it to get changed is a group of people who didn't like something to kick and scream until the team gives it a sober assessment through the goggles of the complaints and decides yes, it should change?

    Who's next? Is Safana going to get changed because some people don't like her new hardened attitude (I certainly don't)? In three months, will she be completely rewritten to be the ignorant plaything she was portrayed as in BG1? Or are not enough people complaining about *that* to make it change? The fact is not enough time passed from the end of BG1 to start of SoD for her to become the practiced sarcastic jerk she now is.

    I'm having flashbacks to the ME3 endings and the even worse rewrites due to the same kind of unnecessary backlash. Somehow I've become the kind of person that is OK with the original vision of the creators (as long as there aren't retcons to force the new vision) that is quietly content, and then other people make a bunch of noise so you change it for "them" and now the game *I* enjoyed is not there anymore.
  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96
    edited April 2016
    forumguy5272 said:

    There's a difference between changing what's been done to improve gameplay, and changing what's been done to re-define a character. How can I get immersed with anything in the game world if all it takes for it to get changed is a group of people who didn't like something to kick and scream until the team gives it a sober assessment through the goggles of the complaints and decides yes, it should change?

    Who's next? Is Safana going to get changed because some people don't like her new hardened attitude (I certainly don't)? In three months, will she be completely rewritten to be the ignorant plaything she was portrayed as in BG1? Or are not enough people complaining about *that* to make it change? The fact is not enough time passed from the end of BG1 to start of SoD for her to become the practiced sarcastic jerk she now is.

    If the team decides to change Safana (who honestly I couldn't care less about, for god's sakes in BG1she had the personality of a potato, any change to that is a good change) in such a way, yes. You seem to think that looking at something soberly counts as caving, it doesn't, they looked at it with a critical eye and decided.

  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96
    gugulug5000 said:

    forumguy5272 said:


    How the heck can I take this game, or I guess *any* game these days given what just happened with Overwatch, with *any* salt when all it takes is a very loud minority to force changes the rest of us don't even think need to be made?

    If it's any consolation, Overwatch responded by removing Tracer's butt pose and replacing it with another butt pose. Maybe Beamdog will do something similar. lol
    Ah yes, the "Fight Club" style of response, can't say I disagree with that.

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,580
    forumguy5272 said:



    Who's next? Is Safana going to get changed because some people don't like her new hardened attitude (I certainly don't)? In three months, will she be completely rewritten to be the ignorant plaything she was portrayed as in BG1? Or are not enough people complaining about *that* to make it change? The fact is not enough time passed from the end of BG1 to start of SoD for her to become the practiced sarcastic jerk she now is.

    This was always the bigger issue for me. The "controversy" about the transgender and Minsc's line were red herrings by comparison.
  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96
    edited April 2016
    David_Gaider said:

    BillyH666 said:

    If the team decides to change Safana (who honestly I couldn't care less about, for god's sakes in BG1she had the personality of a potato, any change to that is a good change) in such a way, yes. You seem to think that looking at something soberly counts as caving, it doesn't, they looked at it with a critical eye and decided.

    And next time may decide differently. I suppose one could argue a precedent has been set, but this is neither a court of law nor a democracy. ;)

    Indeed, ALL HAIL GLORIOUS DIRECTOR GAIDER AND OSTER, WISE IN THEIR WAYS! :wink:

  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96
    edited April 2016
    forumguy5272 said:

    Based on David's responses it reads like the *story* of this game is still in a beta state so you know what? I'll come back in a year or two. And maybe that'll be too soon, too. I remember when the only bugs games needed to be ironed out after release were technical. Now reworking your stories and characters post-launch by fiddling with the content that's *already there* is the new thing.

    You kidding, that's been a thing since Ocarina of Time man :D. In all seriousness, I don't think things will spiral out of control, the team has a good head on their shoulder's, so play the game as it is now, enjoy it. This isn't going to turn into an inch and mile thing (knocks on a tree with a powerfist).

  • forumguy5272forumguy5272 Member Posts: 37
    edited April 2016
    BillyH666 said:

    This isn't going to turn into an inch and mile thing (knocks on a tree with a powerfist).

    That's *exactly* what this is though. They're taking out a joke by Minsc that they were okay with the *entire time* it was in development, and they're expanding (maybe rewriting as well?) the transgender character they were okay with the *entire time* it was in development because in both cases people that *didn't* like it complained *very loudly* while those that were okay or just did not care said nothing at all.

    So of course they're giving an inch to the people that have been yelling at them the past few days.

    Honestly all of this is more 4th-wall breaking when playing the game than the joke they suddenly take issue with, because that only happens *once*. Now the *entire* time I'm playing the game I'm going to have to wonder what part I might like might be something someone else *doesn't* like that Beamdog is going to cave to and change as well.

    Crap like this is why I started skipping through dialogue and cutscenes. SoD I thought was literally going to go back to roots of "It is what it is too bad if you don't like it we'll expand in the next entry", apparently not.
  • SamySamy Member Posts: 51
    I don't know why anyone would play a game before the GameBanshee walkthrough is up anyhow. ;)
  • forumguy5272forumguy5272 Member Posts: 37
    http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54fd8ac5e4b0c9648d63695b/t/553c621ce4b0fe843870b9ce/1430020638828/
  • RoseweaveRoseweave Member Posts: 101
    David, since you're around, will you be looking for a consultant for Mizhena's expanded role? I actually have a bit of experience with this and activist credentials etc. so I'd be well up for sinking time into it.
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    David_Gaider said:

    forumguy5272 said:

    Based on David's responses it reads like the *story* of this game is still in a beta state so you know what? I'll come back in a year or two. And maybe that'll be too soon, too. I remember when the only bugs games needed to be ironed out after release were technical. Now reworking your stories and characters post-launch by fiddling with the content that's *already there* is the new thing.

    I understand your "slippery slope" argument, I really do. To a point, I share your apprehension: there's a fine line to walk between acknowledging feedback from your fans and providing those same fans a sense of entitlement to make demands. That's a line the team is going to have to walk as they work on the patches to come.

    If you can't trust the developers to have a sense of when that "bridge too far" arrives, then at least be assured that I worked on many patches over the course of my time at BioWare -- including for BG2 -- and that my writing skills were often called in for more than just technical fixes. This is not a new ballgame, even if the rules seem to have changed.
    Kind of an off topic question here. Has the writing for games changed much since you worked on BG2? If so, how?
  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96
    forumguy5272 said:

    BillyH666 said:

    This isn't going to turn into an inch and mile thing (knocks on a tree with a powerfist).

    That's *exactly* what this is though. They're taking out a joke by Minsc that they were okay with the *entire time* it was in development, and they're expanding (maybe rewriting as well?) the transgender character they were okay with the *entire time* it was in development because in both cases people that *didn't* like it complained *very loudly* while those that were okay or just did not care said nothing at all.

    So of course they're giving an inch to the people that have been yelling at them the past few days.

    Honestly all of this is more 4th-wall breaking when playing the game than the joke they suddenly take issue with, because that only happens *once*. Now the *entire* time I'm playing the game I'm going to have to wonder what part I might like might be something someone else *doesn't* like that Beamdog is going to cave to and change as well.

    Crap like this is why I started skipping through dialogue and cutscenes. SoD I thought was literally going to go back to roots of "It is what it is too bad if you don't like it we'll expand in the next entry", apparently not.
    Hmm, very insightful. I still disagree, but you've brought up some good points. I guess we'll see.

  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96
    Rody said:

    forumguy5272 said:

    Who's next? Is Safana going to get changed because some people don't like her new hardened attitude (I certainly don't)? In three months, will she be completely rewritten to be the ignorant plaything she was portrayed as in BG1? Or are not enough people complaining about *that* to make it change? The fact is not enough time passed from the end of BG1 to start of SoD for her to become the practiced sarcastic jerk she now is.

    Trans character for me is a wasted opportunity by beamdog to put an interesting quest and character development, to ultimately have something interesting and thought provoking.

    It could have been done better.

    Safana though, why should her personality have changed? If you didn't like her personality, no one ever forced you to take her along.

    And, as a matter of fact, was her personality wrong? So then, what is the right "personality" that all NPCs and PC dialogue options should display?

    Cause you know, since the change to her personality, done without a character development for the sole reason of that personality not conforming with how Beamdog developers think is how people should "think and act" (reason mentioned by the devs for changing Safana), is 100% correct.

    While we are at it, we probably should take a look at other NPCs too no? E.g., Viconia racism with Aerie (and between other elfs and drow as a whole) or Edwin's often offensive remarks to the female NPCs.

    You know what? I think we are on to something!

    We should probably forbid someone thinks differently or have a different personality than what is supposedly "right" for all, no? Specially in our D&D world in which diverse personalities, races and believes abound and the beauty of role playing is essentially taking opportunity of that diversity and how they interact (both good or bad).

    So we don't have any mistakes going forward, please pass along the "correct" personality we all should have, because I was under the wrong impression that there is no wrong personality or belief, there is only wrong when our personality or belief is used as an excuse to harm others (harming others being the wrong thing).


    The issue with Safana is overblown, they didn't change her personality because it wasn't right, they changed it because she, like most BG1 characters, had hardly any personality. Plus, she's a Chaotic Neutral thief, who's to say she changes her personality as she see's fit?

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    David_Gaider said:

    Roseweave said:

    David, since you're around, will you be looking for a consultant for Mizhena's expanded role? I actually have a bit of experience with this and activist credentials etc. so I'd be well up for sinking time into it.

    I'm not certain I'll be directly involved, as SoD is not my project. You should feel free to send any suggestions my way via PM, or your credentials if you're so inclined. I can always pass them on if the need arises.
    David, if you may, what is your project? Is there another Beamdog release sometime in the near(ish) future?
  • forumguy5272forumguy5272 Member Posts: 37
    edited April 2016
    David_Gaider said:

    forumguy5272 said:

    Based on David's responses it reads like the *story* of this game is still in a beta state so you know what? I'll come back in a year or two. And maybe that'll be too soon, too. I remember when the only bugs games needed to be ironed out after release were technical. Now reworking your stories and characters post-launch by fiddling with the content that's *already there* is the new thing.

    I understand your "slippery slope" argument, I really do. To a point, I share your apprehension: there's a fine line to walk between acknowledging feedback from your fans and providing those same fans a sense of entitlement to make demands. That's a line the team is going to have to walk as they work on the patches to come.

    If you can't trust the developers to have a sense of when that "bridge too far" arrives, then at least be assured that I worked on many patches over the course of my time at BioWare -- including for BG2 -- and that my writing skills were often called in for more than just technical fixes. This is not a new ballgame, even if the rules seem to have changed.
    Forgive my crassness but please just don't screw it up. I like the idea of a well-developed transgender character, whether a recruitable party member, an essential character in the story, or even just a recurring bit character. To be clear I don't dislike her current character and I'm not against her being expanded upon. I'm just very very VERY worried about Beamdog churning out some kind of content in a rush to appease people and creating something that isn't better, but ultimately worse.

    I love these games and I like how Beamdog can go around putting new content in old games like they did with BG1 and BG2. I've kind of wondered if you guys might go back and add more content for party members in BG1 so they have a bit more flesh to them (and can maybe explain things like Safana's jadedness by start of SoD without having to rewrite her in SoD). I'm not against change but I don't want the new Baldur's Gate experience to become the equivalent of being on a plane that keeps hitting turbulence because it's being flown by a *few* passengers on the plane yelling at the pilot to keep changing course into the wrong areas because they don't know what they're talking about, instead of the educated, experienced pilot who should already know where the passengers are going and how to give us the smoothest flight on our way there.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    David_Gaider said:

    Roseweave said:

    David, since you're around, will you be looking for a consultant for Mizhena's expanded role? I actually have a bit of experience with this and activist credentials etc. so I'd be well up for sinking time into it.

    I'm not certain I'll be directly involved, as SoD is not my project. You should feel free to send any suggestions my way via PM, or your credentials if you're so inclined. I can always pass them on if the need arises.
    What is your project David? Any hints? Does it rhyme with Galder's Fate Tree?
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    David_Gaider said:


    I understand your "slippery slope" argument, I really do. To a point, I share your apprehension: there's a fine line to walk between acknowledging feedback from your fans and providing those same fans a sense of entitlement to make demands. That's a line the team is going to have to walk as they work on the patches to come.

    If you can't trust the developers to have a sense of when that "bridge too far" arrives, then at least be assured that I worked on many patches over the course of my time at BioWare -- including for BG2 -- and that my writing skills were often called in for more than just technical fixes. This is not a new ballgame, even if the rules seem to have changed.

    @David_Gaider

    Btw -- thanks for ascension, glad you were hired.

    I don't think Beamdog responded to 'fans' -- it caved into some trolls who are now asking for more. "Make Amber apologize, make Safana the way I like (fire Scott because she doesn't like the original game)"

    My criticism of Beamdog is that they have been too slow to respond to polite feedback -- much less responsive than Bioware was. I guess I should have tried to recruit a legion of trolls to get my way.
  • forumguy5272forumguy5272 Member Posts: 37
    edited April 2016
    BillyH666 said:

    The issue with Safana is overblown, they didn't change her personality because it wasn't right, they changed it because she, like most BG1 characters, had hardly any personality. Plus, she's a Chaotic Neutral thief, who's to say she changes her personality as she see's fit?

    Oh come on. Safana definitely had personality. Every character had personality. They didn't have depth but the broad strokes were there. SoD threw out Safana's existing canvas and started a new one. The rest just had more added into their existing character portrait.
  • forumguy5272forumguy5272 Member Posts: 37
    edited April 2016
    Sorry for the doublepost but I'm really considering just abandoning all hope I had in Beamdog becoming more than just excellent custodians, and going back to modded original BG1/BG2 and pretending nothing else exists. At least it'll always be the way I left it.
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