I understand your "slippery slope" argument, I really do. To a point, I share your apprehension: there's a fine line to walk between acknowledging feedback from your fans and providing those same fans a sense of entitlement to make demands. That's a line the team is going to have to walk as they work on the patches to come.
If you can't trust the developers to have a sense of when that "bridge too far" arrives, then at least be assured that I worked on many patches over the course of my time at BioWare -- including for BG2 -- and that my writing skills were often called in for more than just technical fixes. This is not a new ballgame, even if the rules seem to have changed.
I don't think Beamdog responded to 'fans' -- it caved into some trolls who are now asking for more. "Make Amber apologize, make Safana the way I like (fire Scott because she doesn't like the original game)"
My criticism of Beamdog is that they have been too slow to respond to polite feedback -- much less responsive than Bioware was. I guess I should have tried to recruit a legion of trolls to get my way.
Oh, come on man. Yes, the trolls are asking for more, but you keep missing that unaffiliated people were also complaining (granted, much more politely), So I think Beamdog, sifted for fans, and agreed with them. This has given the trolls the impression that THEY have won (typical egocentrism), so they are making more demands, but this time, there aren't any legitimate people backing up the BS.
Safana definately had personality. She was a classic femme fatale character. Like most characters in BG1 she didn't say too much, though.
Yep. She reminded me of my college girlfriend. Which I'm sure no one cares to hear. But changing her without a proper arc to explain it (like say any of the quests to harden the Dragon Age: Origins characters - Leliana's transformation was pretty massive but pretty well explained) completely butchered the nostalgia. In my mind this butchery now only exists in the Enhanced Editions. If I go back to the originals, it will always be exactly as it was said.
Also, I disagree with BG being "sexist", BG had a lot of diversity and a lot of interesting characters - thinking it is sexist is isolating a few points in the story and ignoring the whole diversity of the game.
I don't know if I would call BG "sexist" so much as a product of its time. It is no longer the 20th century, and things that once passed without comment get looked at with a different lens now. Does that mean we toss everything that made BG what it is out the window? No, but neither can we ignore that times have changed. We do not exist in a vacuum, and neither do the games we write.
Also, I disagree with BG being "sexist", BG had a lot of diversity and a lot of interesting characters - thinking it is sexist is isolating a few points in the story and ignoring the whole diversity of the game.
I don't know if I would call BG "sexist" so much as a product of its time. It is no longer the 20th century, and things that once passed without comment get looked at with a different lens now. Does that mean we toss everything that made BG what it is out the window? No, but neither can we ignore that times have changed. We do not exist in a vacuum, and neither do the games we write.
"Game of Thrones" and all it's incest, sexism, chauvinism etc. says that anything that flew in BG1 would have no problem flying in a BG game today. It isn't even close to the same level of "offensiveness" or "counterculture" yet Game of Thrones is a massive hit. And Baldur's Gate would always have had the argument of "It's a fantasy world before our time in another world", anyway.
But if we're modernizing things, when's CHARNAME getting an iPhone? And will the games get patches the same days iPhones get updates and new releases to maintain synchronicity with modern times?
The issue with Safana is overblown, they didn't change her personality because it wasn't right, they changed it because she, like most BG1 characters, had hardly any personality. Plus, she's a Chaotic Neutral thief, who's to say she changes her personality as she see's fit?
Oh come on. Safana definitely had personality. Every character had personality. They didn't have depth but the broad strokes were there. SoD threw out Safana's existing canvas and started a new one. The rest just had more added into their existing character portrait.
Yeah, but there isn't anything wrong with that (not saying you're saying that). But if there was hardly any interaction with her in the first place, how do we know that she wasn't simply lying in the first game, using the PC as a rube to help her out? And once again, Chaotic Neutral. Those types of characters change their personalities if the moon shines differently.
Yeah, but there isn't anything wrong with that (not saying you're saying that).
There is absolutely something wrong with that. If SoD threw out the Bhaalspawn background for the PC would you have taken issue with that? Or to a lesser extent, what if Minsc suddenly had an Intelligence score of 14 and a new personality to reflect that?
They butchered her character. But they're tunneled on "fixing" a transgender character and removing one bad joke from a character who occasionally makes bad jokes because he is, literally, nothing more than a strong retard.
Also, I disagree with BG being "sexist", BG had a lot of diversity and a lot of interesting characters - thinking it is sexist is isolating a few points in the story and ignoring the whole diversity of the game.
I don't know if I would call BG "sexist" so much as a product of its time. It is no longer the 20th century, and things that once passed without comment get looked at with a different lens now. Does that mean we toss everything that made BG what it is out the window? No, but neither can we ignore that times have changed. We do not exist in a vacuum, and neither do the games we write.
Yup, times change, keep up or get out of the way. Harsh, but true. And for the love of god people, they said they noticed "some sexist elements" they didn't say the whole game was sexist.
Of course there was sexist content in BG1 -- I always kicked out Jaheria asap because I hated the whole Honeymooners type humor.
Jaheria was a nag and Khalid was a henpecked husband. It's a sexist trope. BG2 Jaheria was better but I found the romance 'timing' creepy. And I never used Safana. By the time you found I found her I already had Imoen's points distributed the way I wanted.
You can be critical of something and still a fan. And I think that was Amber Scott was saying -- she wanted to improve the game and she did.
Safana definately had personality. She was a classic femme fatale character. Like most characters in BG1 she didn't say too much, though.
Yep. She reminded me of my college girlfriend. Which I'm sure no one cares to hear. But changing her without a proper arc to explain it (like say any of the quests to harden the Dragon Age: Origins characters - Leliana's transformation was pretty massive but pretty well explained) completely butchered the nostalgia. In my mind this butchery now only exists in the Enhanced Editions. If I go back to the originals, it will always be exactly as it was said.
I loved that mission where you harden Leliana. Great stuff.
Kind of a slippery slope with BG. The games have a ton of fans, and they each love different characters for this and that reason. Despite their flaws and all that. By changing them there is a risk of ruining what made people love them in the first place. Kind of on the fence when it comes to messing with the current companions etc. I am all for Beamdog adding new ones, though. And plenty of them.
Also, I disagree with BG being "sexist", BG had a lot of diversity and a lot of interesting characters - thinking it is sexist is isolating a few points in the story and ignoring the whole diversity of the game.
I don't know if I would call BG "sexist" so much as a product of its time. It is no longer the 20th century, and things that once passed without comment get looked at with a different lens now. Does that mean we toss everything that made BG what it is out the window? No, but neither can we ignore that times have changed. We do not exist in a vacuum, and neither do the games we write.
Yup, times change, keep up or get out of the way. Harsh, but true. And for the love of god people, they said they noticed "some sexist elements" they didn't say the whole game was sexist.
In that case why isn't SoD redone with HD sprites and 4k backgrounds? It's too blurry. Where's my HDAO?
I loved that mission where you harden Leliana. Great stuff.
If she really wanted Safana to be a hardened character going forward that's all that had to be done. Write in a quest where you watch something happen to Safana that destroys her carefree sexual expression and sours her to what she is to the world and ruins men for her. Maybe you just find her in the street getting yelled at by some woman whose husband Safana was unknowingly having an affair with and that woman was rich and wants Safana to be stoned to death in the street, so you go on a quest to save her butt and now she's in your party as what she is now.
Instead she's just that way when you meet her because of some fling she had with Coran during the month or so between BG1 end and SoD start.
After being someone in BG1 who expressed having flings with *many* men... and still behaving that way. Sooo... again not enough time passed for it to just make sense from the starting gun. BUT WHELP here it is now!
"Game of Thrones" and all it's incest, sexism, chauvinism etc. says that anything that flew in BG1 would have no problem flying in a BG game today. It isn't even close to the same level of "offensiveness" or "counterculture" yet Game of Thrones is a massive hit. And Baldur's Gate would always have had the argument of "It's a fantasy world before our time in another world", anyway.
But if we're modernizing things, when's CHARNAME getting an iPhone? And will the games get patches the same days iPhones get updates and new releases to maintain synchronicity with modern times?
Perhaps you misunderstand me. At no point did I suggest that BG being a product of its time meant it needed to be "modernized". I meant that one cannot expect it to remain in a time capsule simply because it was a product of its day. The context has changed with a modern viewing, as occurs with all media.
Insofar as my thoughts go regarding what could be potentially changed in a modern interpretation of the Baldur's Gate setting...well, I'll leave that to if and when it ever becomes relevant.
I understand your "slippery slope" argument, I really do. To a point, I share your apprehension: there's a fine line to walk between acknowledging feedback from your fans and providing those same fans a sense of entitlement to make demands. That's a line the team is going to have to walk as they work on the patches to come.
If you can't trust the developers to have a sense of when that "bridge too far" arrives, then at least be assured that I worked on many patches over the course of my time at BioWare -- including for BG2 -- and that my writing skills were often called in for more than just technical fixes. This is not a new ballgame, even if the rules seem to have changed.
I don't think Beamdog responded to 'fans' -- it caved into some trolls who are now asking for more. "Make Amber apologize, make Safana the way I like (fire Scott because she doesn't like the original game)"
My criticism of Beamdog is that they have been too slow to respond to polite feedback -- much less responsive than Bioware was. I guess I should have tried to recruit a legion of trolls to get my way.
Oh, come on man. Yes, the trolls are asking for more, but you keep missing that unaffiliated people were also complaining (granted, much more politely), So I think Beamdog, sifted for fans, and agreed with them. This has given the trolls the impression that THEY have won (typical egocentrism), so they are making more demands, but this time, there aren't any legitimate people backing up the BS.
Trolls are ALWAYS going to claim victory and demand more. That doesn't make those who had legitimate complaints wrong, or them any less grateful when their feedback is listen to and acted upon. Difference is, the trolls demand, legitimate complainants try to offer solutions.
For an example, I'm currently off brainstorming an idea with a couple of other forumites in another thread for another transgendered character, to be presented to Beamdog for their consideration, or if we can get modders interested, created into a mod. You're all welcome to come join in, add your own contributions and ideas, or tell us that we're making a horrible stereotype and to start over again
Also, I disagree with BG being "sexist", BG had a lot of diversity and a lot of interesting characters - thinking it is sexist is isolating a few points in the story and ignoring the whole diversity of the game.
I don't know if I would call BG "sexist" so much as a product of its time. It is no longer the 20th century, and things that once passed without comment get looked at with a different lens now. Does that mean we toss everything that made BG what it is out the window? No, but neither can we ignore that times have changed. We do not exist in a vacuum, and neither do the games we write.
Yup, times change, keep up or get out of the way. Harsh, but true. And for the love of god people, they said they noticed "some sexist elements" they didn't say the whole game was sexist.
In that case why isn't SoD redone with HD sprites and 4k backgrounds? It's too blurry. Where's my HDAO?
But if we gave you that, all those fine sexy HD things, you couldn't use your imagination! On that note, why in the hell is their no bald model for Minsc? The villain Sarevok gets to represented in his spiky, villainous glory, the dancing goblin gets a proper model, but Minsc and faithful Boo are left out in the cold?! Where is the JUSTICE?!
I loved that mission where you harden Leliana. Great stuff.
If she really wanted Safana to be a hardened character going forward that's all that had to be done. Write in a quest where you watch something happen to Safana that destroys her carefree sexual expression and sours her to what she is to the world and ruins men for her. Maybe you just find her in the street getting yelled at by some woman whose husband Safana was unknowingly having an affair with and that woman was rich and wants Safana to be stoned to death in the street, so you go on a quest to save her butt and now she's in your party as what she is now.
Instead she's just that way when you meet her because of some fling she had with Coran during the month or so between BG1 end and SoD start.
After being someone in BG1 who expressed having flings with *many* men... and still behaving that way. Sooo... again not enough time passed for it to just make sense from the starting gun. BUT WHELP here it is now!
Doesn't have to be that long a quest. As long as it includes an important event that changes her views etc.
No one's expecting a time capsule. It's an expansion to a 1998 game in 2016. The *story* should advance. However the *story* doesn't need to be cut up and put back together just because it's 2016. People were enjoying the unaltered BG1EE for what it was without any alterations. Some people flat out avoided the additions because of what it did to the timeless story.
The context has changed with a modern viewing, as occurs with all media.
BG1 and BG2 are always existing in the same context regardless of when you view it. Just like 1984 by Orwell. The great story could've just been continued. Instead it was "Ya I don't like this so rewrite".
Insofar as my thoughts go regarding what could be potentially changed in a modern interpretation of the Baldur's Gate setting...well, I'll leave that to if and when it ever becomes relevant.
Are you talking about BG1/BG2 story/character changes to "modernize"? Because if so, please don't.
"Game of Thrones" and all it's incest, sexism, chauvinism etc. says that anything that flew in BG1 would have no problem flying in a BG game today. It isn't even close to the same level of "offensiveness" or "counterculture" yet Game of Thrones is a massive hit. And Baldur's Gate would always have had the argument of "It's a fantasy world before our time in another world", anyway.
But if we're modernizing things, when's CHARNAME getting an iPhone? And will the games get patches the same days iPhones get updates and new releases to maintain synchronicity with modern times?
Perhaps you misunderstand me. At no point did I suggest that BG being a product of its time meant it needed to be "modernized". I meant that one cannot expect it to remain in a time capsule simply because it was a product of its day. The context has changed with a modern viewing, as occurs with all media.
Insofar as my thoughts go regarding what could be potentially changed in a modern interpretation of the Baldur's Gate setting...well, I'll leave that to if and when it ever becomes relevant.
100% in agreement, the Expansion was made 20 years after the fact, of course the writer's have changed, culture changes, it is an inevitability. My real complaint is the lack of a proper Big Box to put with my collection of PC games, that is a cultural change that I vehemently disagree with, stupid dvd cases...
Doesn't have to be that long a quest. As long as it includes an important event that changes her views etc.
Considering it's a pretty drastic character redirection it'd have to be at least an hour. Anything else wouldn't be taking it seriously enough. But at this point it's clear that this is *the* direction they wanted for Safana, without any proper build into it, so even if they release something to fix the problem they made it's done. This is New Safana. CHARNAME just disappeared for a month or so and came back to find her an utter cow who occasionally paid lip service to her former self without any reason for the shift. Just cuz. If we're modernizing it for the times give her a mental illness and say she's off her meds now. That tidies it up with a perfect bow.
I don't know if I would call BG "sexist" so much as a product of its time. It is no longer the 20th century, and things that once passed without comment get looked at with a different lens now. Does that mean we toss everything that made BG what it is out the window? No, but neither can we ignore that times have changed. We do not exist in a vacuum, and neither do the games we write.
I agree 100% with your statement. The things we make are product of our time and how the world is right now - as time passes we will often judge it in ways we never thought of.
Heck it is even funny that you could have a trans character in BG1 with the girdle (any character) and Edwin specifically in BG2 if you never finish his personal quest and that did not bring up as much controversy as the trans character now added. Go figure...
I liked the EE versions, just can't stand Neera or the Blackguard guy, but overall I liked the improvements they brought and new content. I just hope that as we move forward with more BG games a vision of "sexism" and of "upgrading personalities" is not done in a way to remove interesting and diverse personalities. (Example, I never thought I would care how a guy who beats his wife would end, but play Witcher 3 and do the Baron quest - you leave with a bitter taste in your mouth no matter the outcome and sometimes you even like the Baron.... That is interesting writing).
We live in a world today that has a ton of personalities, beliefs, identities that often times come clashing - I hope BG stories continue to allow that diversity in their characters - sure we may not always like their personalities, but to me the magic of BG was also the diversity both in the interaction and personalities of the NPCs and the various open options you had. (I know they weren't that complex as Witcher 3, hopefully future BG games will be, but Irenicus will always be iconic to me).
Btw, Keldorn was always my favorite! Just had to mod so he wouldn't kill Viconia cause I liked her too.
Edit: to be clear, what I want to say is that it is fine to bring about "modern conflicts" to new content - not change the past content, much less characters personalities (at least without sensible character development) - but bring that conflict in a broad / open way, I.e., don't judge for the player what is right or wrong, let the player decide and see both the good and bad consequences of his action (I always liked the Shaugin quest, you either choose to save their race but create conflict as they will kill humans/landers, or destroy that entire society and protect the humans/landers. It has a moral conflict, but toned down due to less charismatic race).
If you do that, you can create a game that presents the modern social conflicts as a way to be thought provoking and still immersive, that can improve how people think and create a timeless classic. Shoehorning beliefs only creates resentment.
Doesn't have to be that long a quest. As long as it includes an important event that changes her views etc.
Considering it's a pretty drastic character redirection it'd have to be at least an hour. Anything else wouldn't be taking it seriously enough. But at this point it's clear that this is *the* direction they wanted for Safana, without any proper build into it, so even if they release something to fix the problem they made it's done. This is New Safana. CHARNAME just disappeared for a month or so and came back to find her an utter cow who occasionally paid lip service to her former self without any reason for the shift. Just cuz. If we're modernizing it for the times give her a mental illness and say she's off her meds now. That tidies it up with a perfect bow.
Most quests in the game don't take an hour to complete. And given that Safana croaks in BG2, she isn't really important enough in the grand scheme of things to warrant such a lengthy quest. Companion quests should be shorter and to the point. Given that most players probably won't even use the character at all.
And given that Safana croaks in BG2, she isn't really important enough in the grand scheme of things to warrant such a lengthy quest. Companion quests should be shorter and to the point. Given that most players probably won't even use the character at all.
So why change anything about her without explanation if she's dead soon? Why do I even care? This is a story I used to love, they butchered someone I liked, they're fixing something that isn't broken, it's ruined, I'm going to bed, this is a gong show and I've said all I'll ever need to say. Have fun with the unnecessary new wave Baldur's Gate.
And given that Safana croaks in BG2, she isn't really important enough in the grand scheme of things to warrant such a lengthy quest. Companion quests should be shorter and to the point. Given that most players probably won't even use the character at all.
So why change anything about her without explanation if she's dead soon? Why do I even care? This is a story I used to love, they butchered someone I liked, they're fixing something that isn't broken, it's ruined, I'm going to bed, this is a gong show and I've said all I'll ever need to say. Have fun with the unnecessary new wave Baldur's Gate.
Yes but BG2 have a lot less companions too. And they really added a lot of writing to that game compared to the first one.
Ohh I agree with you. I don't think characters need changing. Better to add brand new ones. I have no clue how Safana got changed, though. I only played the game for 5 hours or something on a friend's computer. I gave up due to bugs. I will buy the epxansion pack for myself once the patches are popping up.
And given that Safana croaks in BG2, she isn't really important enough in the grand scheme of things to warrant such a lengthy quest. Companion quests should be shorter and to the point. Given that most players probably won't even use the character at all.
So why change anything about her without explanation if she's dead soon? Why do I even care? This is a story I used to love, they butchered someone I liked, they're fixing something that isn't broken, it's ruined, I'm going to bed, this is a gong show and I've said all I'll ever need to say. Have fun with the unnecessary new wave Baldur's Gate.
Yes but BG2 have a lot less companions too. And they really added a lot of writing to that game compared to the first one.
Ohh I agree with you. I don't think characters need changing. Better to add brand new ones. I have no clue how Safana got changed, though. I only played the game for 5 hours or something on a friend's computer. I gave up due to bugs. I will buy the epxansion pack for myself once the patches are popping up.
She's kind of a jerk? Which is why i didn't take her with me. You want an explanation for her sudden change in personality? Chaotic Neutral.
Sorry for the doublepost but I'm really considering just abandoning all hope I had in Beamdog becoming more than just excellent custodians, and going back to modded original BG1/BG2 and pretending nothing else exists. At least it'll always be the way I left it.
You want an explanation for her sudden change in personality? Chaotic Neutral.
hmmm... I don't really like the "Chaotic Neutral means anything" line of thinking.
If I was to explain it, I would just say that she is clearly a very good manipulator (judging from high charisma, high intelligence, and the story about her and the pirate ship) and that the sultry persona wasn't the only way to be the femme fatale of the Baldur's Gate saga. Maybe the testier and more sarcastic character you see in Siege of Dragonspear is her real personality.
I always just assumed that the people I had been traveling with for months didn't just walk out on me when I got captured by Irenicus. I just Sort of figured they all died. Unless they were evil, then they probably ran off and left me. Now we have optional content that makes up some idea's of what happened and yes, some of them die. I am kinda pissed that Entar Silvershield is alive. I don't think he survived one of my BG playthroughs a single time over the last 15 or so years. Honestly, I didn't even know he could survive. I usually rob his house of all riches and then when I come back from Candlekeep he is dead apparently. Guess I should have checked up on him lol, but I felt bad after breaking into his home. Oh well.
Comments
But if we're modernizing things, when's CHARNAME getting an iPhone? And will the games get patches the same days iPhones get updates and new releases to maintain synchronicity with modern times?
They butchered her character. But they're tunneled on "fixing" a transgender character and removing one bad joke from a character who occasionally makes bad jokes because he is, literally, nothing more than a strong retard.
Jaheria was a nag and Khalid was a henpecked husband. It's a sexist trope. BG2 Jaheria was better but I found the romance 'timing' creepy. And I never used Safana. By the time you found I found her I already had Imoen's points distributed the way I wanted.
You can be critical of something and still a fan. And I think that was Amber Scott was saying -- she wanted to improve the game and she did.
Kind of a slippery slope with BG. The games have a ton of fans, and they each love different characters for this and that reason. Despite their flaws and all that. By changing them there is a risk of ruining what made people love them in the first place. Kind of on the fence when it comes to messing with the current companions etc. I am all for Beamdog adding new ones, though. And plenty of them.
Instead she's just that way when you meet her because of some fling she had with Coran during the month or so between BG1 end and SoD start.
After being someone in BG1 who expressed having flings with *many* men... and still behaving that way. Sooo... again not enough time passed for it to just make sense from the starting gun. BUT WHELP here it is now!
Insofar as my thoughts go regarding what could be potentially changed in a modern interpretation of the Baldur's Gate setting...well, I'll leave that to if and when it ever becomes relevant.
For an example, I'm currently off brainstorming an idea with a couple of other forumites in another thread for another transgendered character, to be presented to Beamdog for their consideration, or if we can get modders interested, created into a mod. You're all welcome to come join in, add your own contributions and ideas, or tell us that we're making a horrible stereotype and to start over again
Heck it is even funny that you could have a trans character in BG1 with the girdle (any character) and Edwin specifically in BG2 if you never finish his personal quest and that did not bring up as much controversy as the trans character now added. Go figure...
I liked the EE versions, just can't stand Neera or the Blackguard guy, but overall I liked the improvements they brought and new content. I just hope that as we move forward with more BG games a vision of "sexism" and of "upgrading personalities" is not done in a way to remove interesting and diverse personalities. (Example, I never thought I would care how a guy who beats his wife would end, but play Witcher 3 and do the Baron quest - you leave with a bitter taste in your mouth no matter the outcome and sometimes you even like the Baron.... That is interesting writing).
We live in a world today that has a ton of personalities, beliefs, identities that often times come clashing - I hope BG stories continue to allow that diversity in their characters - sure we may not always like their personalities, but to me the magic of BG was also the diversity both in the interaction and personalities of the NPCs and the various open options you had. (I know they weren't that complex as Witcher 3, hopefully future BG games will be, but Irenicus will always be iconic to me).
Btw, Keldorn was always my favorite! Just had to mod so he wouldn't kill Viconia cause I liked her too.
Edit: to be clear, what I want to say is that it is fine to bring about "modern conflicts" to new content - not change the past content, much less characters personalities (at least without sensible character development) - but bring that conflict in a broad / open way, I.e., don't judge for the player what is right or wrong, let the player decide and see both the good and bad consequences of his action (I always liked the Shaugin quest, you either choose to save their race but create conflict as they will kill humans/landers, or destroy that entire society and protect the humans/landers. It has a moral conflict, but toned down due to less charismatic race).
If you do that, you can create a game that presents the modern social conflicts as a way to be thought provoking and still immersive, that can improve how people think and create a timeless classic. Shoehorning beliefs only creates resentment.
Ohh I agree with you. I don't think characters need changing. Better to add brand new ones.
I have no clue how Safana got changed, though. I only played the game for 5 hours or something on a friend's computer. I gave up due to bugs. I will buy the epxansion pack for myself once the patches are popping up.
If I was to explain it, I would just say that she is clearly a very good manipulator (judging from high charisma, high intelligence, and the story about her and the pirate ship) and that the sultry persona wasn't the only way to be the femme fatale of the Baldur's Gate saga. Maybe the testier and more sarcastic character you see in Siege of Dragonspear is her real personality.