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Okay Beamdog, you can stop with the politics now.

BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
edited April 2016 in Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear
Mizhena: I am Mizhena, faithful of Tempus. Praise be to the Lord of Battles!
CHARNAME: Mizhena? That's an unusual name. I don't think I've heard it before.
Mizhena: I created the name myself several years ago. My birth name proved unsuitable.
CHARNAME: What was wrong with your old name?
Mizhena: When I was born, my parents thought me a boy and raised me as such. In time, we all came to understand I was truly a woman. I created my new name from syllables of different languages. All have special meaning to me; it is the truest reflection of who I am.

Player: Proceeds to roll his eyes so hard they almost fall out as he's not-so-subtly beat over the head with a political message, longing for the days when games weren't clogged with writers who have a social justice warrior axe to grind.
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Comments

  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    @Blackhawk: Mizhena's lines are badly written, but where and what, exactly, is the political message? If it isn't even subtle, surely you can spell it out.
  • BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
    edited April 2016
    Mizhena: When I was born, my parents thought me a boy and raised me as such. In time, we all came to understand I was truly a woman. I created my new name from syllables of different languages. All have special meaning to me; it is the truest reflection of who I am.

    In time, we all came to understand I was truly a woman.


    we all came to understand

    we all

    Translation: 'We' and 'all' includes you. Accept this.
  • BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
    Doubledimas said:

    I think a more logical explanation is 'we all' refers to both her and her parents. But nice try.

    You don't understand how political statements cloaked in art work, do you?
  • DoubledimasDoubledimas Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,286
    edited April 2016
    Blackhawk said:

    Doubledimas said:

    I think a more logical explanation is 'we all' refers to both her and her parents. But nice try.

    You don't understand how political statements cloaked in art work, do you?
    You are trying to read something more in 'we all' but cannot substantiate it, unless you read it with your mind already thinking Beamdog is injecting political statements. If you don't have your mindset, your interpretating is quite a stretch. At least that is the way your objection seems to be constructed in my view.
  • BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
    edited April 2016
    Doubledimas said:

    Blackhawk said:

    Doubledimas said:

    I think a more logical explanation is 'we all' refers to both her and her parents. But nice try.

    You don't understand how political statements cloaked in art work, do you?
    You are trying to read something more in 'we all' but cannot substantiate it, unless you read it with your mind already thinking Beamdog is injecting political statements. If you don't have your mindset, your interpretating is quite a stretch. At least that is the way your objection seems to be constructed in my view.
    Okay. So, no. Glad we cleared that up.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    There's absolutely no need to bring this back again.


    According to Trent Oster, they "will be improving this character in a future update."

    They "have this character, they have a series of reasons why she is the way she is, it’s obviously captured the attention of a lot of people, so they should expand her story".

    They "are going to revisit Mizhena and expand her lines".

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/51161/beamdog-statement-on-siege-of-dragonspear
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/52379/trent-osters-interview-about-dragonspear-controversies
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/52705/more-on-mizhena-from-trent-oster

    So, all the Mizhena's dialogue will be redone.
  • BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
    edited April 2016
    bengoshi said:

    There's absolutely no need to bring this back again.


    I'm just now playing through this bit of Dragonspear, and unless the Beamdog forums is now also moderated by SJW's who will silence dissent from their worldview, I have every right to make a post expressing my experience with this part of the game.

    Trent Oster is completely full of it. Mizhena is an NPC the player will be guaranteed to speak with and encounter, being the only readily available healer in Chapter 8. To wit: they knew the player would encounter this NPC and placed it there. This is pushing Mizhena and the intention behind the writing in the player's face.

    No one happily enjoying a game likes to be blind-sided with a completely irrelevant piece of leftist propaganda.

    That is why I (and apparently also many people) didn't like it.
    Post edited by Blackhawk on
  • TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    Make it stop...
  • BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
    edited April 2016
    “Personally, I think it shows a progressive world view that we didn’t think a transgender character was a big deal. It was just a character to us, part of the world, helping to drive the story along.” ~ Trent Oster

    Nevermind, found it from the horse's mouth. It is leftist propaganda.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited April 2016
    Just out of curiosity, could you spell out exactly what you believe this "leftist propaganda" is? As in, what political message do you believe is being conveyed here? All I'm seeing from you are catchphrases and codewords, it'd help if you were more specific.
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    edited April 2016
    @Blackhawk: Your interpretation is, again, very skewed, to the point of being paranoid. Trent Oster is not saying that at all. And he is right in what he says: a transgender character is no big deal.
  • BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
    shawne said:

    Just out of curiosity, could you spell out exactly what you believe this "propaganda" is? As in, what political message do you believe is being conveyed here?

    Showing a 'progressive world view' where a transgender character blends seamlessly with the rest of the setting and isn't treated as unusual or unnatural, a world that depicts precisely the sort of compliance leftists demand of anyone who does not accept transgender behavior.

    It's very self-explanatory, like I said, Oster literally spelled that out.
  • BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
    xzar_monty said:

    @Blackhawk: Your interpretation is, again, very skewed, to the point of being paranoid. Trent Oster is not saying that at all. And he is right in what he says: a transgender character is no big deal.

    There is an overwhelming majority who believe transgender behavior is unnatural and offensive. It may not be a big deal to you, but that is you.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited April 2016
    Blackhawk said:

    Showing a 'progressive world view' where a transgender character blends seamlessly with the rest of the setting and isn't treated as unusual or unnatural, a world that depicts precisely the sort of compliance leftists demand of anyone who does not accept transgender behavior.

    It's very self-explanatory, like I said, Oster literally spelled that out.

    Not quite as self-explanatory as you might think - how exactly is your compliance being "demanded"? Are you saying that all transgender characters in fiction must be treated as "unusual or unnatural", when even the creators of this particular fictional world have said that that's not how it works?

    And if you believe that, are you not pushing your own "conservative world view" on anyone who does accept transgender behavior? Why is it okay for you and not okay for Trent Oster?
  • BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
    shawne said:

    Blackhawk said:

    Showing a 'progressive world view' where a transgender character blends seamlessly with the rest of the setting and isn't treated as unusual or unnatural, a world that depicts precisely the sort of compliance leftists demand of anyone who does not accept transgender behavior.

    It's very self-explanatory, like I said, Oster literally spelled that out.

    Not quite as self-explanatory as you might think - how exactly is your compliance being "demanded"?

    CHARNAME: Thank you for sharing your story with me. I have another question for you.

    Like I said, compliance.


    shawne said:

    Are you saying that all transgender characters in fiction must be treated as "unusual or unnatural", when even the creators of this particular fictional world have said that that's not how it works?

    And if you believe that, are you not pushing your own "conservative world view" on anyone who does accept transgender behavior? Why is it okay for you and not okay for Trent Oster?

    I'm saying real-world politics have no place in a fantasy game, and using this medium to push an agenda on an unsuspecting player is not only inappropriate but unprofessional.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited April 2016
    Blackhawk said:

    CHARNAME: Thank you for sharing your story with me. I have another question for you.

    Like I said, compliance.

    Politeness is compliance? This dialogue option neither approves of nor condemns the character in question. What would "noncompliance" look like, if you could roleplay that scenario? What would you have had your character say in that context?
    Blackhawk said:

    I'm saying real-world politics have no place in a fantasy game, and using this medium to push an agenda on an unsuspecting player is not only inappropriate but unprofessional.

    Again, that's a catchphrase - one that doesn't even hold true for Baldur's Gate, which has had allegories for racism since 1998.

    What's still unclear to me is why you feel the statement "real-world politics have no place in a fantasy game" is not a political agenda; aren't you advocating for the exact same thing you're supposedly against?
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    Blackhawk said:

    xzar_monty said:

    @Blackhawk: Your interpretation is, again, very skewed, to the point of being paranoid. Trent Oster is not saying that at all. And he is right in what he says: a transgender character is no big deal.

    There is an overwhelming majority who believe transgender behavior is unnatural and offensive. It may not be a big deal to you, but that is you.
    Mate, before people could think you are just a hermit, playing SOD without access to the outside world. You went overboard with this now, so it is clear you are just trying to troll. I'm guessing you betted a beer with your friends you could stir this up again, or something like that?
  • BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
    shawne said:

    What's still unclear to me is why you feel the statement "real-world politics have no place in a fantasy game" is not a political agenda; aren't you advocating for the exact same thing you're supposedly against?

    Obviously not. There is only one solution: a divorce of inflammatory political overtones from an art medium that is meant to be relaxing and recreational. How is that unclear to you?

    I run tabletop games. Guess what I tell all my players? Check your politics at the door. We're not here for that.

    Someone needs to tell that to Oster.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited April 2016
    Blackhawk said:

    Obviously not. There is only one solution: a divorce of inflammatory political overtones from an art medium that is meant to be relaxing and recreational. How is that unclear to you?

    That's perfectly clear - but you don't seem to recognize that determining what is or is not "inflammatory" constitutes a political agenda in itself. Why should your viewpoint and your politics take precedent over those of the people who made the game, and of the people who own the license to the game? Maybe I don't agree with your politics - why should you be allowed to shove them down my throat?
    Blackhawk said:

    I run tabletop games. Guess what I tell all my players? Check your politics at the door. We're not here for that.

    And as the creator/manager of those specific games, you are entitled to establish whatever political parameters you seem appropriate, up to and including the exclusion of all political context (though I'd be very curious to see how that actually works given your somewhat contentious definitions). Doesn't the same hold true for Beamdog?
    Blackhawk said:

    Someone needs to tell that to Oster.

    Actually, your problem is with Ed Greenwood (creator of the Forgotten Realms) and Nathan Stewart (director of D&D for Wizards of the Coast), as they have both gone on record disproving your perception of apolitical neutrality in this particular franchise. They have both openly stated that transgendered characters are not seen as unusual or unnatural in the Forgotten Realms, and never have been.

    If that offends you, perhaps you'd be better served taking up the matter with them.
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    @Blackhawk: You yourself are bringing political overtones into this discussion, and in a very inflammatory manner. Surely you cannot fail to perceive that?
  • BlackhawkBlackhawk Member Posts: 34
    edited April 2016
    shawne said:



    That's perfectly clear - but you don't seem to recognize that determining what is or is not "inflammatory" constitutes a political agenda in itself. Why should your viewpoint...etc etc

    This is probably why you have a few thousand posts on this forum and I have under thirty.

    1. I'm not interested in engaging you on a debate (because clearly that's what you want from me) on four, five, six different levels replying to replies. That's a waste of time.
    2. Don't include major political issues that people fight over in a game. That's it. That's common sense, not (as your straw-man suggests) biased in and of itself.

    That's my position, I'm not going to answer your questions or debate you further, as you learned exactly what you set out to learn two posts ago, and now you simply want to argue.
  • DetectiveMittensDetectiveMittens Member Posts: 235
    Discussion is over. Case closed. Let's go back to enjoying the game *throws streamer*
  • CurmudgeonCurmudgeon Member Posts: 57
    @Blackhawk: So Beamdog invaded your safe space without even the semblance of a trigger warning and now you feel horribly offended -- dare I say victimized. Oh dear, what shall we do?
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,819
    @Blackhawk so why exactly did you create this topic if you don't want to debate at all?
This discussion has been closed.

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