1. Can be Half-Orc (+3 Thac0, +7 Damage is very n1 for melee fighting) 2. Don't have to prepare Druid Spells 3. The Shaman exclusive spells are good
Cons:
1. Spirit Dance sucks in Late Game Content. Only use is Fooder for Death Spells. 2. No Shaman Specific Questline 3. No Shaman HLAs 4. No Multiclassing
My Conclusion:
The class is in terms of gameplay overall good. Not to weak, not to strong. Yes you convinced me to that but i expected something different from that class. First of all a shaman is especially when you look at naitive American people someone who can communicate with the Elements and the Spirits. Can you imagine how cool it would be to have maybe a spirit crow or a Swarm of Crows to harass your oponent? The class description suggest you that the Spirits are the Shamans Main Weapon but the Spirits are his Weak Point. In Terms of Flavour i think they messed up here. I don't like the Playstyle of another Jack-of-all-Trades-Master-of-nothing. That's because i dont like Bards in BG because they sucks expect Blade because of Defensive Spin and Offensive Spin etc. (in IWD there are fine because of the Vanilla Level 11 Song and the Skalds Level 15 Song.) I think the lack of good Summons limits the Shaman to one playstyle. With an upgrade in terms of spirits the Shaman can be played as Divine Bard as it is right now and as a divine summoner (and thats what i want to play because like i said if i have to choose Fighter/Druid or Shaman right now i would pick the Multiclass because the fact that shaman doesn't have to prepare Druid Spells doesn't matter because the Fighter/Druid can stand his ground with a few Ironskins, Insect Plague etc. memorized.)
Solution:
1. Make the Spirits stronger and scale them better with Levelprogression. 2. The lack of a Shaman questline or a Shaman Stronghold is something that should be included as well. 3. Shaman HLAs would be n1 as well, that makes the class more unique compared to Druid. 4. And allow Multiclassing. That gives you options and options are always good right? The people who loves Powergaming can multiclass the shit out of this game and the people who already like that class are happy too because nothing changes for them. Freedom to choose what you want to play over Restrictions.
Btw. I am not a Hardcore Powergamer or a Hardcore Roleplaying Gamer. I am a balanced player. I know both aspects from the game and i like both options.
Right now i am playing that group in my Icewind Dale Playthrough on Insane Difficulty:
Berserker, Skald, Fighter/Thief, Priest of Tyr, Sorcerer, DwarfenDefender. As you can see it's not the typical 5 Fighter/Mage/Cleric, 1 Fighter/Mage/Thief Powergaming group on Heart of Fury Mode.
About the Blackguard:
I think the Blackguard is strong but the Inquisitor is far more dangerous. Sure the Blackguard can disrupt Spellcasters with Poison but the Inquisitor dispels Protection with his insane ability. An Inquisitor laughs about Enemy Spellcasters and slay them to death, the Blackguard must reach the enemy to use his poison effectively. The Aura is strong but not gamebreaking.
@Wutan1988 Just to nitpick a little. The shaman does get HLAs, and in fact it gets a couple of unique HLAs. But while I haven't used them a lot, they don't seem particularly great (maybe as good as the druids shapeshifting HLAs). Unfortunately they miss out on some of the best druid ones as well - devas and greater elementals.
Generally, I agree with your take. The summons are ok at times, but they feel like they need something a bit more. Whether it's being able to move around without them unsummoning (forget death spells, the entire team can be dispelled by using fear on the shaman), or being able to control them to move within their radius. A HLA that buffed the summons would be nice too. All that said, I find more use for spirit summons than I do a druids shapeshift, or a beastmasters summonig so it isn't by any means the worst class ability.
A stronghold quest would definitely be welcome. To be honest, I'd even take them piggybacking on the ranger or druid ones. It just feels unfinished with nothing.
Multiclassing would be great. One thought though is that if fighter shaman was a thing, I don't think I could ever justify using a druid again. Their spell casting is just so much better, and as a front line fighter, you'd probably be more specialised into certain situations, so the narrow spellcasting would be even more suited. Plus their lack of dependence on any spellcasting stat. Maybe if they could only dual to mages, just to be different ;p
As for the blackguard thing, again I agree, but would point out that what you've said there is that they are slightly weaker than one of the most absurdly gamebreaking classes in the game. They aren't the most powerful class, but they are a long way ahead of the pack. Shaman is probably a little below average, but I'd definitely say they are closer to the average.
Yeah Stronghold quests for the Shaman Class and the Monk Class would be very appreciated i think. Eventually you get there some specific gear that buff the spirits that would be n1 i think. But a HLA that buffs the spirits is also fine. Controll over the Movements of the Spirits is mandatory to use them as best as possible.
Yeah Inquisitor is absurdly strong. Was my first Solo Class ever. Dispel Magic+Carsomyr+Ring of Gaxx+Baldurans Cloak+Amulett of Power, GWW and Hardiness and you are good to go. But like I said a n1 mix of sometimes Soloing and sometimes playing with a party with romances and stuff is exactly my thing^^
First of all a shaman is especially when you look at naitive American people someone who can communicate with the Elements and the Spirits. Can you imagine how cool it would be to have maybe a spirit crow or a Swarm of Crows to harass your oponent?
Just pointing out this is only one depiction of "tribal shamans" throughout history...
Yeah that works. But whats the point then? Thats the same strategy the Fighter/Druid uses (except the axes;D). But the Fighter/Druid gets Weapon Specialisation, Fighter HLAs, Heavy Armor and Dual Wielding (Belm for example). I think with the adjustments i mentioned the Shaman would be a very good and unique divine summoner and that is in terms of flavour also very welcome i think.
Well, I'll tell you what I do. I make sure that before I wade into combat, every enemy is covered in bees.
Guys i pointed out that the class is good gameplay wise. Maybe i was a little bit harsh about the class because i expected something different and was disappointed. It botheres me that the Spirit Dance sucks. It feels not right for me. It feels like Unfinished Business. In my opinion Spirits should be one of the Main Advantages. The Class Description implies you that Spirits are the Shamans Main Weapon and unfortunaly that is not the case. In Terms of Summoning Power they are weak compared to other classes and you can't deny that. And the other suggestions i pointed out makes sense too. Would it really that bad when we get a few more tools to play with? I already said that nothing changes for you guys if the class gets a few more adjustments in terms of summons and multiclassing. And you can't tell me that you don't want a Shaman Stronghold or Specific Questline. You can play the class you want and i can play the class i want. Would it really that bad when you can play the class in two different ways?
1. Shaman can't use GWW 2. Shaman can't use Heavy Armor 3. Can't use the HLA Summonings 4. Call Lightning is good in BG but not in BG2 and ToB because you are fighting more indoor. 5. Shaman can't use Dual Wielding effectively
Lets say both classes are good but the Shaman is not my class right now. We will see if the devs tweaks the class in future updates or not. If the devs decide to leave the shaman at the current state i will mod the class myself and be happy with it^^
I kind of agree about the shaman's spirit dance not being worth much.
I played one partway through BG1, and what turned me off wasn't that the summons were weak, it was that that they took too darn long to summon. By the time I could get any spirits out, my party had already won the encounter.
It felt like I was standing there dancing uselessly and basically being dead weight to my party, except for providing the occasional Cure Light Wounds spell.
My conclusion was that if you want to play a summoning druid, the totemic druid kit beats the shaman hands down. The totemic druid's spirit animals are so much stronger and better than the shaman's, it honestly makes me wonder what they were thinking when they designed the new class.
Agreed on that. The summons don't take as long to summon at later levels, but by then you have so many spells (including summoning spells) that you're much better off spending your time casting. It's also not as though you can summon them all and then cast your spells - they all disappear if you do anything, then you'll have to wait for them all over again.
As you say, at low levels, when they are actually pretty powerful, they take way too long to get on the field. At that point all you can really do is use metagame knowledge to know where your enemies are, summon them out of sight, and then lead your enemies in using another character. Even cheesy stuff like that is just annoying as it can take several minutes of just waiting for the dances before every fight. Better off just fighting normally.
All that said... The Shaman would just be an awesome thematic fit for the IWD setting. Barbarian already fits like a glove, and something else (like Shaman) would be a welcome addition.
Wouldn't it have been kind of cool if the shaman had been a totemic druid with sorcerer style casting and spell tables? I'd play that and love it.
The main draw of the class is the sorcerer's casting style. The bow and axe are nice, but if the spirit animals got nerfed into what we have through the "dancing" in order to balance that, I'd say lose the bow and axe, get rid of the "dancing", and add the totemic spirit animals special ability. Voila, a great class that fits the shamanistic theme.
Guys i pointed out that the class is good gameplay wise. Maybe i was a little bit harsh about the class because i expected something different and was disappointed. It botheres me that the Spirit Dance sucks. It feels not right for me. It feels like Unfinished Business. In my opinion Spirits should be one of the Main Advantages. The Class Description implies you that Spirits are the Shamans Main Weapon and unfortunaly that is not the case. In Terms of Summoning Power they are weak compared to other classes and you can't deny that. And the other suggestions i pointed out makes sense too. Would it really that bad when we get a few more tools to play with? I already said that nothing changes for you guys if the class gets a few more adjustments in terms of summons and multiclassing. And you can't tell me that you don't want a Shaman Stronghold or Specific Questline. You can play the class you want and i can play the class i want. Would it really that bad when you can play the class in two different ways?
1. Shaman can't use GWW 2. Shaman can't use Heavy Armor 3. Can't use the HLA Summonings 4. Call Lightning is good in BG but not in BG2 and ToB because you are fighting more indoor. 5. Shaman can't use Dual Wielding effectively
Lets say both classes are good but the Shaman is not my class right now. We will see if the devs tweaks the class in future updates or not. If the devs decide to leave the shaman at the current state i will mod the class myself and be happy with it^^
Heavy Armor, Call Lightning, and Dual Wielding I'll grant you, but Fighter/Druids can't use Greater Whirlwind & the HLA Summons in Icewind Dale either, because there are no HLAs in Icewind Dale.
I don't understand why every new thing has to be moar powerful!! than all the existing things.
How about: it's different and interesting and adds even more tactical options.
That's really the issue here. People expect OP things because it's flashy and badass. Guess what? Balance is more important. lol, I sound like a damn druid.
yeah i know that but i speak in that case from BG not IWD because we can't compare Fighter/Druid and Shaman in IWD because there is of course no Shaman in IWD.
BTW as i mentioned many times before my Main Issue is the "Weak Spirit Dance" not Multiclassing. Multiclassing could be n1 because it gives you Options. Do you not want freedom to choose? I like Freedom and i hate Restrictions. One Run with Roleplaying attempt with a party and maybe one Run with Powergaming attempt with a new class? One run with a Single Class Shaman and one run with a Multiclass Shaman? If you do not want to Multiclass than screw it. Nobody have to. Am I the only one who likes both Powergaming and Roleplaying? Sry guys but im out. I admit the shaman is a overall good class but it feels not like a Shaman for me. For me the Shaman atm is a design issue because of the Dance. Unfortunaly the Totemic Druid fits the Class Description of the Shaman better as the Shaman^^
My Goal is not to make you feel bad about this class. My Goal is not to blame Beamdog. The only thing i care about is a game i am in love with since 2001. Childhood memories are a thing aren't they? My Goal is to make that class more versatile in terms of Gameplay and of Lore. With a better dance it fits more the Class Description. The Class Description implies you Spirits are the Shamans Main Weapons. With Multiclassing you have more tools to play with. If the Shaman is alright for you atm its fine. For me its not.
Btw i think nothing will be ever that OP the Fighter/Mage was.
Comments
ok lets make a Pro/Con List:
Pros:
1. Can be Half-Orc (+3 Thac0, +7 Damage is very n1 for melee fighting)
2. Don't have to prepare Druid Spells
3. The Shaman exclusive spells are good
Cons:
1. Spirit Dance sucks in Late Game Content. Only use is Fooder for Death Spells.
2. No Shaman Specific Questline
3. No Shaman HLAs
4. No Multiclassing
My Conclusion:
The class is in terms of gameplay overall good. Not to weak, not to strong. Yes you convinced me to that but i expected something different from that class. First of all a shaman is especially when you look at naitive American people someone who can communicate with the Elements and the Spirits. Can you imagine how cool it would be to have maybe a spirit crow or a Swarm of Crows to harass your oponent? The class description suggest you that the Spirits are the Shamans Main Weapon but the Spirits are his Weak Point. In Terms of Flavour i think they messed up here. I don't like the Playstyle of another Jack-of-all-Trades-Master-of-nothing. That's because i dont like Bards in BG because they sucks expect Blade because of Defensive Spin and Offensive Spin etc. (in IWD there are fine because of the Vanilla Level 11 Song and the Skalds Level 15 Song.) I think the lack of good Summons limits the Shaman to one playstyle. With an upgrade in terms of spirits the Shaman can be played as Divine Bard as it is right now and as a divine summoner (and thats what i want to play because like i said if i have to choose Fighter/Druid or Shaman right now i would pick the Multiclass because the fact that shaman doesn't have to prepare Druid Spells doesn't matter because the Fighter/Druid can stand his ground with a few Ironskins, Insect Plague etc. memorized.)
Solution:
1. Make the Spirits stronger and scale them better with Levelprogression.
2. The lack of a Shaman questline or a Shaman Stronghold is something that should be included as well.
3. Shaman HLAs would be n1 as well, that makes the class more unique compared to Druid.
4. And allow Multiclassing. That gives you options and options are always good right? The people who loves Powergaming can multiclass the shit out of this game and the people who already like that class are happy too because nothing changes for them. Freedom to choose what you want to play over Restrictions.
Btw. I am not a Hardcore Powergamer or a Hardcore Roleplaying Gamer. I am a balanced player. I know both aspects from the game and i like both options.
Right now i am playing that group in my Icewind Dale Playthrough on Insane Difficulty:
Berserker, Skald, Fighter/Thief, Priest of Tyr, Sorcerer, DwarfenDefender. As you can see it's not the typical 5 Fighter/Mage/Cleric, 1 Fighter/Mage/Thief Powergaming group on Heart of Fury Mode.
About the Blackguard:
I think the Blackguard is strong but the Inquisitor is far more dangerous. Sure the Blackguard can disrupt Spellcasters with Poison but the Inquisitor dispels Protection with his insane ability. An Inquisitor laughs about Enemy Spellcasters and slay them to death, the Blackguard must reach the enemy to use his poison effectively. The Aura is strong but not gamebreaking.
Just to nitpick a little. The shaman does get HLAs, and in fact it gets a couple of unique HLAs. But while I haven't used them a lot, they don't seem particularly great (maybe as good as the druids shapeshifting HLAs). Unfortunately they miss out on some of the best druid ones as well - devas and greater elementals.
Generally, I agree with your take. The summons are ok at times, but they feel like they need something a bit more. Whether it's being able to move around without them unsummoning (forget death spells, the entire team can be dispelled by using fear on the shaman), or being able to control them to move within their radius. A HLA that buffed the summons would be nice too. All that said, I find more use for spirit summons than I do a druids shapeshift, or a beastmasters summonig so it isn't by any means the worst class ability.
A stronghold quest would definitely be welcome. To be honest, I'd even take them piggybacking on the ranger or druid ones. It just feels unfinished with nothing.
Multiclassing would be great. One thought though is that if fighter shaman was a thing, I don't think I could ever justify using a druid again. Their spell casting is just so much better, and as a front line fighter, you'd probably be more specialised into certain situations, so the narrow spellcasting would be even more suited. Plus their lack of dependence on any spellcasting stat. Maybe if they could only dual to mages, just to be different ;p
As for the blackguard thing, again I agree, but would point out that what you've said there is that they are slightly weaker than one of the most absurdly gamebreaking classes in the game. They aren't the most powerful class, but they are a long way ahead of the pack. Shaman is probably a little below average, but I'd definitely say they are closer to the average.
Yeah Stronghold quests for the Shaman Class and the Monk Class would be very appreciated i think. Eventually you get there some specific gear that buff the spirits that would be n1 i think. But a HLA that buffs the spirits is also fine. Controll over the Movements of the Spirits is mandatory to use them as best as possible.
Yeah Inquisitor is absurdly strong. Was my first Solo Class ever. Dispel Magic+Carsomyr+Ring of Gaxx+Baldurans Cloak+Amulett of Power, GWW and Hardiness and you are good to go. But like I said a n1 mix of sometimes Soloing and sometimes playing with a party with romances and stuff is exactly my thing^^
Here's other variations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism#Regional_variations
EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
* cannot spam 5 Call Lightnings without cheesy prior knowledge of encounter
* cannot use a shortbow
* cannot use an axe
@Fardragon
1. Shaman can't use GWW
2. Shaman can't use Heavy Armor
3. Can't use the HLA Summonings
4. Call Lightning is good in BG but not in BG2 and ToB because you are fighting more indoor.
5. Shaman can't use Dual Wielding effectively
Lets say both classes are good but the Shaman is not my class right now. We will see if the devs tweaks the class in future updates or not. If the devs decide to leave the shaman at the current state i will mod the class myself and be happy with it^^
I played one partway through BG1, and what turned me off wasn't that the summons were weak, it was that that they took too darn long to summon. By the time I could get any spirits out, my party had already won the encounter.
It felt like I was standing there dancing uselessly and basically being dead weight to my party, except for providing the occasional Cure Light Wounds spell.
My conclusion was that if you want to play a summoning druid, the totemic druid kit beats the shaman hands down. The totemic druid's spirit animals are so much stronger and better than the shaman's, it honestly makes me wonder what they were thinking when they designed the new class.
As you say, at low levels, when they are actually pretty powerful, they take way too long to get on the field. At that point all you can really do is use metagame knowledge to know where your enemies are, summon them out of sight, and then lead your enemies in using another character. Even cheesy stuff like that is just annoying as it can take several minutes of just waiting for the dances before every fight. Better off just fighting normally.
The main draw of the class is the sorcerer's casting style. The bow and axe are nice, but if the spirit animals got nerfed into what we have through the "dancing" in order to balance that, I'd say lose the bow and axe, get rid of the "dancing", and add the totemic spirit animals special ability. Voila, a great class that fits the shamanistic theme.
yeah i know that but i speak in that case from BG not IWD because we can't compare Fighter/Druid and Shaman in IWD because there is of course no Shaman in IWD.
@subtledoctor
BTW as i mentioned many times before my Main Issue is the "Weak Spirit Dance" not Multiclassing. Multiclassing could be n1 because it gives you Options. Do you not want freedom to choose? I like Freedom and i hate Restrictions. One Run with Roleplaying attempt with a party and maybe one Run with Powergaming attempt with a new class? One run with a Single Class Shaman and one run with a Multiclass Shaman? If you do not want to Multiclass than screw it. Nobody have to. Am I the only one who likes both Powergaming and Roleplaying? Sry guys but im out. I admit the shaman is a overall good class but it feels not like a Shaman for me. For me the Shaman atm is a design issue because of the Dance. Unfortunaly the Totemic Druid fits the Class Description of the Shaman better as the Shaman^^
My Goal is not to make you feel bad about this class. My Goal is not to blame Beamdog. The only thing i care about is a game i am in love with since 2001. Childhood memories are a thing aren't they? My Goal is to make that class more versatile in terms of Gameplay and of Lore. With a better dance it fits more the Class Description. The Class Description implies you Spirits are the Shamans Main Weapons. With Multiclassing you have more tools to play with. If the Shaman is alright for you atm its fine. For me its not.
Btw i think nothing will be ever that OP the Fighter/Mage was.