Storywise/Lore-wise, how strong are CHARNAME and the companions by the end of the series?
Vendetta543
Member Posts: 8
I'm not gonna use numbers and levels here because it's hilariously easy to make broken builds or abuse the AI to defeat enemies you by all rights should be smeared against so I'm going to look at it from a lore perspective.
Your character begins at 20 years old with not much experience; the biographies imply a leaning towards a certain class, but certainly not any advanced training and the like; the fact that the character starts with a quarterstaff to me implies lack of need for combat hence the character carries it around mostly as a 'just in case' tool rather than a weapon.
Over the course of 1-2 years - dependent on how you rest - the character ends up fighting increasingly dangerous enemies at higher and higher odds. The climax of BG1 involves killing Sarevok, merely one of your siblings, and even then you're likely going to barely win it unless you're either really good at tactics or good at cheesing. By Siege of Dragonspear you move up and fight the likes of Belhifet; I'm not sure just how strong he's supposed to be, but from what I gathered I'd have to say middle management.
Things start ramping up come BG2, however: The main antagonist is Irenicus, who a lot of people call an 'Elminster-level Mage'; I'm not sure whether they mean that in-story or due to him using Elminster's stats, but one can't deny that he's strong. Likewise you can fight and kill the Demi-lich Kangaxx, the Red Dragon Firkraag, the Vampire Matron Bodhi along with other assorted nasties. This is definitely not something a mid-level adventurer group would be able to achieve given that these monsters are very powerful.
Come TOB Faerun throws everything but the kitchen sink at you: Your character and the group have to fight five of his/her siblings (plus Gromnir) along with their assorted gathered armies, especially in the case of Yaga-Shura and Sendai. That's not mentioning the various Vampires, Beholders, Illithid, Fire Giants, Liches and whatever else high levels monstrosities you have to fight in-between.
Even this I found to be justifiable enough until we get to the final boss and Watcher's Keep: Amelyssan is quite literally inches from attaining godhood when you fight her and, if you choose to fight it, Demogorgon is the crown prince of demons in the abyss. Fighting individuals like this you'd think would need the blessing of a deity or being Chosen or something, but your character can and, in a lot of people's games, have killed these epic-level nasties with as far as I could tell no divine intervention save the sliver of Bhaal essense they have: Cyric outright states the Gods couldn't be involved, so there's no chance of you getting slipped aid on the sly since even the Solar doesn't do much but grill you.
Even discounting gameplay since leveling up in TOB is ridiculously inflated, I'm curious how strong the group is supposed to be lore-wise if they're capable of such feats. Characters like Elminster or Szass Tam took decades if not hundreds of years to get where they were, and yet the BG cast get there in maybe two years if that. This is even acknowledged in the story itself: Nalia calls both her and Imoen archmages, Aerie remarks that she's one of the strongest spellcasters in Faerun, Elminster says even he's hesitant to fight you etc etc.
I'm mostly curious because it seems like the power discrepancy is just a tad large all things considered. I mean even if we ascribe to the logic of 'You fight or you die', it seems like story-wise the characters get too strong too fast given the timeframe. It sort of reminds me of Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines where your neonate kills things that should by all rights dust him with a mere scratch and this is acknowledged with the various characters growing more and more wary of you as the nights pass.
Sorry for the rambling, I'm new to the forum and hope to get into some deeper discussions
Your character begins at 20 years old with not much experience; the biographies imply a leaning towards a certain class, but certainly not any advanced training and the like; the fact that the character starts with a quarterstaff to me implies lack of need for combat hence the character carries it around mostly as a 'just in case' tool rather than a weapon.
Over the course of 1-2 years - dependent on how you rest - the character ends up fighting increasingly dangerous enemies at higher and higher odds. The climax of BG1 involves killing Sarevok, merely one of your siblings, and even then you're likely going to barely win it unless you're either really good at tactics or good at cheesing. By Siege of Dragonspear you move up and fight the likes of Belhifet; I'm not sure just how strong he's supposed to be, but from what I gathered I'd have to say middle management.
Things start ramping up come BG2, however: The main antagonist is Irenicus, who a lot of people call an 'Elminster-level Mage'; I'm not sure whether they mean that in-story or due to him using Elminster's stats, but one can't deny that he's strong. Likewise you can fight and kill the Demi-lich Kangaxx, the Red Dragon Firkraag, the Vampire Matron Bodhi along with other assorted nasties. This is definitely not something a mid-level adventurer group would be able to achieve given that these monsters are very powerful.
Come TOB Faerun throws everything but the kitchen sink at you: Your character and the group have to fight five of his/her siblings (plus Gromnir) along with their assorted gathered armies, especially in the case of Yaga-Shura and Sendai. That's not mentioning the various Vampires, Beholders, Illithid, Fire Giants, Liches and whatever else high levels monstrosities you have to fight in-between.
Even this I found to be justifiable enough until we get to the final boss and Watcher's Keep: Amelyssan is quite literally inches from attaining godhood when you fight her and, if you choose to fight it, Demogorgon is the crown prince of demons in the abyss. Fighting individuals like this you'd think would need the blessing of a deity or being Chosen or something, but your character can and, in a lot of people's games, have killed these epic-level nasties with as far as I could tell no divine intervention save the sliver of Bhaal essense they have: Cyric outright states the Gods couldn't be involved, so there's no chance of you getting slipped aid on the sly since even the Solar doesn't do much but grill you.
Even discounting gameplay since leveling up in TOB is ridiculously inflated, I'm curious how strong the group is supposed to be lore-wise if they're capable of such feats. Characters like Elminster or Szass Tam took decades if not hundreds of years to get where they were, and yet the BG cast get there in maybe two years if that. This is even acknowledged in the story itself: Nalia calls both her and Imoen archmages, Aerie remarks that she's one of the strongest spellcasters in Faerun, Elminster says even he's hesitant to fight you etc etc.
I'm mostly curious because it seems like the power discrepancy is just a tad large all things considered. I mean even if we ascribe to the logic of 'You fight or you die', it seems like story-wise the characters get too strong too fast given the timeframe. It sort of reminds me of Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines where your neonate kills things that should by all rights dust him with a mere scratch and this is acknowledged with the various characters growing more and more wary of you as the nights pass.
Sorry for the rambling, I'm new to the forum and hope to get into some deeper discussions
6
Comments
On a serious side, even level 20 is considered as the realm of demi-gods in AD&D. Following, 30th would be the club of minor deities and level 40 the league of major gods. ToB reaaallllyyy doesn't scale lore-friendly with its character builds and HLA's.
" When you fight Demogorgon it is extremetly weakened after it's long imprisonment"
Not true, he states that is accumulating energy to break the seal from a long time, a seal created by Helm.
And he has the energy to partially break it to let you go out. far from extremely weakened.
"Same can be said for Irenicus when you severe it's connection with the tree"
The Asylum fight where he kills you with no hope (if you go to the battle alone) is his maximum level of power, and he is not connected to the tree.
" In the illithid city, the Gith use their own powers to keep the mind flayers in check for a while", but they leave before you fight the most powerful ones.
There are many many things that have no logic in this game.
A backstab from an experienced rogue should kill or fail, he cuts your throat or pierces a vital point.
You can fight at 100% until you have 1 HP left, ypu should be wery weak in that moment.
A hidden thief can stand in front of an enemy in full light without being seen, and he is not invisible, is hiding, sneaking.
I can write a full page of such things.
But the game works wonderfully, is a great game. Both for the RP part and the game mechanics.
The only logic beyond all those things is that are needed by the game.
You can enjoy playing at a very low level, at a medium level, at a high level and in ToB at an epic or even godly level, that is the only logic of your incredible going from an apprentice level to a level not only superior to master, close to a major God in such a short period.
Speaking of Demogorgon, is that the 'real' one or just one of many Avatars? I saw a discussion before and one claimed that Demo could make as many as seven avatars at once so the one you fight isn't him at his full strength, but then I saw Neverwinter where Demo does appear through a portal by himself and it takes an entire group of high level adventurers along with a friendly Illithid and Drizzt and the companions to take him down, and even then they pretty much say 'Well he's not going to be down forever. We got lucky'.
I heard from before that Irenicus supposedly uses Wish to kill your party, which makes some amount of sense I suppose. That or it could be that 'storywise' your characters were way weaker when fighting him in the Asylum than they did in the tree of life: Which I can justify easy enough considering Imoen and the PC had just been physically/mentally/spiritually tortured with them losing their souls in the process. Likewise they and the companions had to fight through the Spellhold dungeon, deal with Bodhi along with the rampaging PC Slayer, and I imagine the companions were also weakened by Irenicus/Bodhi beforehand considering what they did to Charname and Imoen. No surprise that your party would get trashed without the element of surprise unlike with the Elven city.
You must be kidding, your souls are essential for their plans, he want to become a God, she is trying to get rid of her vampirism and too much risk is involved. He maybe can leave Rilev in his glass jar, but not you alive in the maze. For both them other people are just pawns in their own games and they don't have any mercy and invested a lot of effort in their plan.
All what you say can be true, but there is an other topic about logic and justification and how the human being often prefers the latter. If you want to find a logic for something in a context like this game, with premises so vague, you will find it. But you have to do this many, many times to see this game as a logical thing. With my point of view everything is perfect from the beginning.
Can't tell who exactly you're replying to, but I'll play ball: Irenicus let Bodhi deal with you because the second your soul was taken you were, in his words, 'nothing'; he doesn't even care to dispose of you himself, leaving it to Bodhi. Granted that was a bad idea because Bodhi falls under villain cliche of 'Lets torment them first rather than line them against the wall and shoot' but point still applies.
Hell even when you're tracking him down like a mad dog his only response to seeing you in the Tree of Life is 'You again? I thought you'd be dead by now...'. Him leaving you to Bodhi and her tossing you in the maze rather than just gassing the containers isn't mercy, it's just them VASTLY underestimating you: Which is in-character and a flaw MANY villains in fiction have; even when you're fighting Irenicus and Bodhi for the last time they act like you're beneath them, which makes Sendai's response somewhat refreshing in retrospect.
I mean always did wonder why Sarevok didn't attempt to chase you down after dicing Gorion...again I have to chalk it up to the same logic; your level 1 behind wasn't worth the chase in his eyes and he figured wolves would kill you eventually.
Given the vague premises and the few facts that we can use to support or discard a thesis each, or at least most of this not so logical things can be explained in some way, in 20 years Abazigail can be not only adult but parent of an adult dragon because he is a spawn and so on.
You can do it and stretch your mind to find all the many explanations needed to see an inner logic in the game. Or like me think that the developers had some priorities that was a game that mechanically works well (interesting and challenging magic and combat system and so on) and an interesting plot. And they had an engine of 15 years ago. I guess logic was not a priority and they chose to have instead a resemblance of logic. that is why I told: From this point of view is really easy to find a logic for everything and everything fits together perfectly.
But is just a point of view, not THE TRUTH.
BG is great, they got us 90% of the way but yes you are going to bring your imagination to bare for the rest.
Charname doesn't become the level of major god in the course of a few years because is the prophesied one. Being a spawn is also not the reason. If one of those things would be true he would level at a completely different rate from the NPCs and have an higher xp cap, he doesn't. You can tell that his party levels faster because his divine essence radiates from him. But this is not logical as both he and the party gain XP and levels at the same rate in the period that the divine essence is stolen and you can attain godly levels in that period. And how can a prophecy, that talk only of charname, ignoring the party, emanate something?
I understand that my explanation does't appeal you people. You don't find logic that when the BG series was planned it was supposed to end with SoA, where with the original cap you can reach the maximum level a mortal can reach. And when ToB was created Bioware could not sell an expansion where there is no more chance to improve, to level up, so moved the XP cap at a point that let's anybody attain godly levels. And as a single level of arcane spells is not enough they opened also to the lev 9 spells, adding the HLA for everybody since there is few that a not caster can gain from the added XP. So the logic behind, the true one, is to make the players happy and sell the expansion.
But if you find my explanation not logical please tell my where is my logical error. If you refuse it because it doesn't appeal you you are not logic at all, you are biased by your feelings and preferences, so don't even try to find a logic.
Then when you are again in the path of logic, and not on the one of finding justifications that appeal to you, feel free to find other logical explanations, maybe mine is not the only one.
@FinnTheHuman - Hm, I was under the impression that the prophesied Bhaalspawn was anyone who managed to make it to the Throne rather than it being a predestined individual: Like in Morrowind where an interpretation of the Nerevarine prophecy isn't that the character was destined to be the Chosen One but rather he did all the work and by virtue he became the hero even if he wasn't predestined to it.
Actually, doesn't dialogue with Portalbendarwinden in BG1 support this? He says your coin is on edge and reading the book for Firebead shows that the edged coin means you're immune to manipulations to luck/misfortune; e.g your fate is whatever you make of it, you weren't predestined to win or lose.
@gorgonzola - Why are you being so hostile? Everyone's discussions are very civil but there's a definite current of passive-aggressiveness in yours. I don't believe in the idea that the prophesy leans towards you winning but I can see why people make that claim - it is as you said a justification - and it's good for consideration if nothing else. Logic or justification, ultimately the line is thin here and the guy who refuted you on Demogorgon also provided support for his argument.
But if I am perceived as hostile and aggressive is really better that I don't partecipate anymore at this topic, as I want to be friendly and I appreciate how friendly is the people in those boards. For me the friendly environment is much more important than establish together if something is a logical thing or a justification and I don't want to ruin the enjoyment of who write here and of who read.
About the guy who refuted me on Demogorgon, he provided support for his argument, a sound and logical one. So I accepted his reasons as good and pressed the like button. Maybe it was not enaugh and I should also write something like "you are correct". I apologize again.
Instead I want to tank you, because even if I didn't want to be aggressive I sounded like if I was so, your feedback, knowing how you perceived me, can only help me acting better on the boards. I know that even if I am naturally friendly sometimes my ways are too harsh.
With the "axioms" laid out in AD&D, a player gets XP and a player levels. If player reaches lvl 30-40, they are considered god level power. So yes, logically as far as axioms they are god level.
NB that I am using a strict interpretation of logical: that consequences follow from established facts and implications, not that these facts or implications are appealing, e.g. backstabs should kill/fail, or fighters fight at full strength until HP=0. This is how we judge fictional settings, by applying the standard of internal consistency, not that the fantasy world is consistent with our own.
It is true that the game doesn't dole out approprate XP for the deeds. There are definitely inconsistencies, look at the xp for picklocks in BGI vs BGII. So in that case the game is "illogical." However, overall if you were to conduct this game in a PnP session with a DM--its so epic, without the power of save/reload or knowing what the DM had planned next--I would fully agree that running the campaign successfully should end with godlike status.
congrats on diffusing the situation and keeping the forum a nice place. You're both a credit to us all.
@FinnTheHuman - But did they make it because they were destined to or because they simply managed to survive where the other Bhaalspawn couldn't on their own merit? Ultimately it's hard to tell in these settings, especially since Prophecy twists and self-fulfilling prophecies are very common in fantasy even during the time BG2 was made.
Also, while anyone could be put through the same harrowing trials Charname had been it's doubtful they would have all survived to be able to take on the likes of Demogorgon or Amelyssan since it's just as likely others would have been smashed by their first wolf and bled out. Yes the player has power word: Reload on their side, but if we look at it canonically/lore-wise then Charname managed to defeat the epic level nasties without dying once (since it's Game Over if they died).
I am trying to ignore levels, however, as TOB has inflated leveling and it's unlikely Keldorn would have died to giants if he was as high a level as he was when I ended the saga (ditto Cernd in his ending or Dorn being killed by lone human Mercy Whitedove, though at least Rasaad is appropriate), hence why I'm trying to make a sense of balance: Obviously the party aren't deities by the end of TOB given the events of their endings and the timeframe, but they have to be strong enough that they can survive fighting Amelyssan, Demogorgon etc etc; being who in canon are very powerful and and unlikely to be killed by anything save highly skilled individuals.