BG2: Time-sensetive gameplay. What I mean by that is many dialogues initated by your NPCs simply ticked off the amount of time the game has been running.
I hated this so much...
As for me, I'd have to go with the lack of satisfying evil options. If your character is a cunning scoundrel or manipulative mastermind, good luck getting the game to acknowledge it. You can only be the petty thug, the random psycho, or the reputation metagamer who struggles with the contradiction of evil NPCs who hate high reputations in a world of psychic law enforcement.
I had this problem even in my first game of BG1, when I played a goody two shoes. Partway through the game, I realized that the good option was almost always the most profitable, and it really cheapened the moral weight of my decisions.
BG1: The shallow, shallow story telling. It doesn't really get good until you hit Baldur's Gate proper and even then, it's pretty shallow. I know I am going to get a lot of hate for this opinion. There's a major lack of characterization among the people you can bring in your parties. When I hear stories of how people "totally love" some NPC, I always sit back and wonder why. Very, very few of them interact with you on any meaningful level, so their entire character is simply a bunch of sound bites.
Couldn't agree w/ you more, but I feel we are a miniscule minority. I love the BG franchise, but I feel like I love it for different reasons than the overwhelming majority of people. I usually solo b/c I've found that I just don't give a shit about most of the NPC's that join your party. As far as I'm concerned they were exactly what you said, walking sound bites that I had to outfit and keep from dieing. Back in the day, I tried to get into the full-party, dialogue, explore-your-companions' life approach, but it just didn't do it for me. Nowadays, I will sometimes pick up 1 evil NPC just to have a comrade and to explore the group mechanics a bit. I've gotten over a decade of enjoyment out of this game w/o really ever going what I consider to be the traditional route of play.
I'd have to go with time sensitive stuff too. I really hated being on the clock. I also hated how mage-centric the game play can be during boss fights. I love playing Warriors and alot of time I felt like all i was doing was playing body guard so mages could get their spells of doom off.
I will agree though the story in BG 1 did feel flat, I definatly loved the Epicness of BG2+TOB's storytelling. Nothing beats Planescape Torment though, the story in that game makes BG look as empty and hack n slash as Icewind Dale.
The only real complaint I had was that much of the dialogue seemed to be written for a male human fighter with charisma, wisdom and intelligence used as dump stats who seemed to have something against bathing.
The only thing I can think of is no Max Hit Point levelling for BG1, and having to reload constantly to get your max hit points for yourself and other NPCs. Especially frustrating and lots of reloading when you have two or three characters level up at the same time.
Everything else was perfect for me.
Blargh, yes! I downloaded a convenience mod that fixed that up for me and gave me max HP every time. I'm too much of a perfectionist to do anything else, so I had to.
BG1: The shallow, shallow story telling. It doesn't really get good until you hit Baldur's Gate proper and even then, it's pretty shallow. I know I am going to get a lot of hate for this opinion. There's a major lack of characterization among the people you can bring in your parties. When I hear stories of how people "totally love" some NPC, I always sit back and wonder why. Very, very few of them interact with you on any meaningful level, so their entire character is simply a bunch of sound bites.
I agree the depth of NPCs in BG2 was far better.
And I totally get what you're saying. But something does make me love that vast major of the NPCs in Baldur's Gate, and I really can't put my finger on it. I think the only ones I find tiresome are like, Shar-Teel and Skie and other such NPCs that are just like "hey look, this is a joke let's SLAM IT IN YOUR FACE OVER AND OVER." AKA, apparently being a feminist is the entire basis of Shar-Teel's existence since over half of her lines are telling you how dumb men are. And Skie is a funny joke on pampered nobles, but ... it would be good to see some actual characterization.
I think for a lot of people, they are provided with just enough character to be intrigued and amused, and then roleplay the rest in their head, or something. I don't know.
BG2: Time-sensetive gameplay. What I mean by that is many dialogues initated by your NPCs simply ticked off the amount of time the game has been running. I tend to power through the game at a pretty brisk pace (once you understand AD&D combat, you can obliterate anything with ease), so I have not ever actually finished the Jaheira romance just as one example. I don't want to pause the game before I leave my house just to leave it on in the background so I can experience all the RP stuff.
Ugh, yes. Same here, I go through at a decent pace so it's hard to sit around waiting for dialogues and crap. I want to, because I love the story, but it's sometimes quite annoying.
All: walking speed, pathfinding, the way you obliterate your enemies on subsequent playthroughs once you know what you're doing. BG1: The original quest log/journal. BG2's In Progress/Completed division was far superior from a tracking perspective. BG2: Level drain (forgetting spells WTF), not enough evil NPCs, and no evil thief (where was the cheating multiclassed assasin/fighter i ask you???). Also, I totally agree with SandmanCCL, time-driven scripting in NPC events made me livid, and I DID leave BG2 running while heading to the pub on multiple occasions TOB: The pathetic Illasera fight at the start.
Mods (particularly unfinished business and tactics) greatly negate most of the above.
Don't get me wrong BTW, I love BG to death, the above is merely tarnish on pure silver!
Baldur's Gate II: Girdles of Strength. I simply felt that those items took away half the fun of playing str-handicapped characters. With the girdle of hill giants strength available for vending almost instantly (good aligned characters with high charisma could basicly buy it after killing hendak in the copper coronet), you were able to go for a minimum in strength without a noticable disadvantage throughout the game. To top that, there were even four more items to boost strength to ridicolous high levels available. You could basicly make your entire party to unstoppable melee killing machines which is just weird... I always felt that all the stat-items should be changed to actually give a plus bonus, not locking the stat to a specific value. Which means the girdle of hill giant strength should give +1 to str, frost +2, etc.
That's 2e issues. A hill giant had a str of 19 so a girdle of hill giant strength gave you the strength of a hill giant.
The only thing that I think is lacking in Baldur's Gate is good dwarves. Korgan and Kagain are evil, and Yeslick is not in BG2. In the whole game, we have seen cities of humans, elfs, svirfnebelins, drows, halflings.... even a gnoll fortress. We can always visit the Durlag's Tower, full of -dead- good dwarves. I am sure that there is at least one or two lawful good dwarves or something approaching in the Sword Coast and Amn.
Just my impression, I really like those little bearded war machines that you throw into the fight.
But I really love BG the way it was, I'm sure one day there will be a mod with a real "good" dwarf, full of honor and a good friend to have during a tavern fight!
SPOILER: Hey you're right, there is no dwarvish settlement in the entire BG series (except the iron mine in cloakwood, which *used* to be a dwarvish settlement until it was turned into a pit of BHP Billiton misery.
BG1 (vanilla): The ridiculous amount of time you have to put into managing inventory. I felt like I spent half the game finding ways to distribute gems, necklaces, rings, magic items, scrolls, potions, and ESPECIALLY the goddamned ammo. I don't know how many 20 stacks of arrows, bolts, darts, and sling stones I dropped just to fit in other things. I finally just stopped picking up the cheaper treasure.
The gem pouches, scroll cases, ammo belts, potion cases, and bags of holding in SoA and ToB made a HUGE difference in the entire game playing experience, although I found that those would eventually fill up too (pre-bottomless containers modding).
To be fair (and true to PnP), I have to admit that sometimes there isn't enough room or available encumbrance to take all the treasure with you.
The only thing that I think is lacking in Baldur's Gate is good dwarves. Korgan and Kagain are evil, and Yeslick is not in BG2. In the whole game, we have seen cities of humans, elfs, svirfnebelins, drows, halflings.... even a gnoll fortress. We can always visit the Durlag's Tower, full of -dead- good dwarves. I am sure that there is at least one or two lawful good dwarves or something approaching in the Sword Coast and Amn.
Just my impression, I really like those little bearded war machines that you throw into the fight.
But I really love BG the way it was, I'm sure one day there will be a mod with a real "good" dwarf, full of honor and a good friend to have during a tavern fight!
On top of that, Korgan is just a dwarven stereotype. The only interesting ones are Kagain and Yeslick. I'm sure people will disagree with me there; sure Korgan is more rounded since he's in BGII but let's be honest, he is just a dwarf stereotype. He's your normal, battle-hungry, berserker dwarf. How original.
BG2 - I hate the way it starts; I think it is far too linear; there are way too many dialogue screens and not enough voice acting; there aren't enough NPCs (the new ones aren't a patch on the old ones and the best of the old ones got left out).
ToB - Only played it once. As far as I recall it was just a linear series of set-piece battles. Thought I'm never playing that again and went back to BG1.
BG1 - No Viccy romance, no cool dungeons (too much forest, not enough epic sauce quests), no portraits to choose from that AREN'T taken.
BG2 - Can't save Jon from ending like this (getting bear hugged by demons). Can't sleep with Viccy because she's only in it for trousers and leaves you. No cool forests (too much dungeon, not enough epic sauce foliage).
ToB - Too short, Watcher's Keep too awesome in comparison and all the epic sauce items get wasted because you've basicly won, no cool dungeons or foliage.
No hatred from me, just a whole lotta love for both games. They have their flaws, but they're hidden behind many layers of awesomeness.
Well said.
@Zwiebelchen Concering "money problem" you mentioned, I think that a demi-god and his/her party should at least have a decent amount of gp(money). Begging demi-god is not a pretty sight.
@Metal_Hurlant you have a point. I guess "no max hp" is not to be hated, but it would be better for the game to have that option.
I didn't really hate anything in particular, maybe some minor dislikes but that's it. The only thing I really hated, was the fact that all three of them ended. Always leaves me with a melancholic feeling of loss when I finish Baldur's Gate.
BG1: Playing BG1 makes me miss BG2's dialogue. BG2: Playing BG2 makes me miss BG1's exploration. ToB: Playing ToB makes me realize that BG2 should have only taken you to level 15.
@Zwiebelchen Concering "money problem" you mentioned, I think that a demi-god and his/her party should at least have a decent amount of gp(money). Begging demi-god is not a pretty sight.
I think that sometimes stuff that appears obviously logical should make way for a good gameplay. And it is not a sign of good gameplay that shops can be bought empty on your first visit...
Another instance of this issue is that all paperdoll enemies drop the items they used. Sure it's a feature that adds to realism. A sword doesn't suddenly break just because the wielder dies. However, it destroys certain parts of the gameplay. And it's really annoying to check 30 loot piles on the ground just to find the one pile that contains a magic weapon.
The only real complaint I had was that much of the dialogue seemed to be written for a male human fighter with charisma, wisdom and intelligence used as dump stats who seemed to have something against bathing.
No wonder why I would often feel like the game was written just for my character
BG (Tutu) - late acquired NPCs, my two favourites are Skie and Eldoth, not just annoying that I can't share more of the game with them but they're both ripe candidates for BG2. BG2 - no pairing NPCs, controversial I know, but I liked the RP-ness pairings brought, also, as mentioned a dozen times above me, lack of evil NPCs and being generally shunned to play a good guy BGToB - I actually quite enjoyed it's linear nature, what, you want some wilderness to explore? Why? You're an epic level character, what could you possibly gain from adventuring. Although I wish it were larger, I think it could have benefited with being it's own game rather than as an expansion. I did love the ending though, especially for each NPC you had, that was a nice touch.
One thing someone mentioned about the strength belts, I'm in agreement, which is why I hope Item Revisions (the mod) will work since it solves the issue by giving them bonuses to strength, not fixing them to a certain number. That, and Spell Revisions are possibly my two favourite mods.
We should do a 'favourite things about BG' thread.
Comments
As for me, I'd have to go with the lack of satisfying evil options. If your character is a cunning scoundrel or manipulative mastermind, good luck getting the game to acknowledge it. You can only be the petty thug, the random psycho, or the reputation metagamer who struggles with the contradiction of evil NPCs who hate high reputations in a world of psychic law enforcement.
I had this problem even in my first game of BG1, when I played a goody two shoes. Partway through the game, I realized that the good option was almost always the most profitable, and it really cheapened the moral weight of my decisions.
Oh, and BG1, hated the low level cap.
I guess for BG1 my only real complaint is the relative lack of NPC interaction.
For BG2 the game was comparatively too linear.
And I concur with what others have said about ToB re: spellcasting getting too complicated and too many overpowered and enchanted items.
I will agree though the story in BG 1 did feel flat, I definatly loved the Epicness of BG2+TOB's storytelling. Nothing beats Planescape Torment though, the story in that game makes BG look as empty and hack n slash as Icewind Dale.
And I totally get what you're saying. But something does make me love that vast major of the NPCs in Baldur's Gate, and I really can't put my finger on it. I think the only ones I find tiresome are like, Shar-Teel and Skie and other such NPCs that are just like "hey look, this is a joke let's SLAM IT IN YOUR FACE OVER AND OVER." AKA, apparently being a feminist is the entire basis of Shar-Teel's existence since over half of her lines are telling you how dumb men are. And Skie is a funny joke on pampered nobles, but ... it would be good to see some actual characterization.
I think for a lot of people, they are provided with just enough character to be intrigued and amused, and then roleplay the rest in their head, or something. I don't know. Ugh, yes. Same here, I go through at a decent pace so it's hard to sit around waiting for dialogues and crap. I want to, because I love the story, but it's sometimes quite annoying.
All: walking speed, pathfinding, the way you obliterate your enemies on subsequent playthroughs once you know what you're doing.
BG1: The original quest log/journal. BG2's In Progress/Completed division was far superior from a tracking perspective.
BG2: Level drain (forgetting spells WTF), not enough evil NPCs, and no evil thief (where was the cheating multiclassed assasin/fighter i ask you???). Also, I totally agree with SandmanCCL, time-driven scripting in NPC events made me livid, and I DID leave BG2 running while heading to the pub on multiple occasions
TOB: The pathetic Illasera fight at the start.
Mods (particularly unfinished business and tactics) greatly negate most of the above.
Don't get me wrong BTW, I love BG to death, the above is merely tarnish on pure silver!
In the whole game, we have seen cities of humans, elfs, svirfnebelins, drows, halflings.... even a gnoll fortress. We can always visit the Durlag's Tower, full of -dead- good dwarves. I am sure that there is at least one or two lawful good dwarves or something approaching in the Sword Coast and Amn.
Just my impression, I really like those little bearded war machines that you throw into the fight.
But I really love BG the way it was, I'm sure one day there will be a mod with a real "good" dwarf, full of honor and a good friend to have during a tavern fight!
The gem pouches, scroll cases, ammo belts, potion cases, and bags of holding in SoA and ToB made a HUGE difference in the entire game playing experience, although I found that those would eventually fill up too (pre-bottomless containers modding).
To be fair (and true to PnP), I have to admit that sometimes there isn't enough room or available encumbrance to take all the treasure with you.
BG2 - I hate the way it starts; I think it is far too linear; there are way too many dialogue screens and not enough voice acting; there aren't enough NPCs (the new ones aren't a patch on the old ones and the best of the old ones got left out).
ToB - Only played it once. As far as I recall it was just a linear series of set-piece battles. Thought I'm never playing that again and went back to BG1.
BG2 - Can't save Jon from ending like this (getting bear hugged by demons). Can't sleep with Viccy because she's only in it for trousers and leaves you. No cool forests (too much dungeon, not enough epic sauce foliage).
ToB - Too short, Watcher's Keep too awesome in comparison and all the epic sauce items get wasted because you've basicly won, no cool dungeons or foliage.
@Zwiebelchen Concering "money problem" you mentioned, I think that a demi-god and his/her party should at least have a decent amount of gp(money). Begging demi-god is not a pretty sight.
@Metal_Hurlant you have a point. I guess "no max hp" is not to be hated, but it would be better for the game to have that option.
BG2: Playing BG2 makes me miss BG1's exploration.
ToB: Playing ToB makes me realize that BG2 should have only taken you to level 15.
And it is not a sign of good gameplay that shops can be bought empty on your first visit...
Another instance of this issue is that all paperdoll enemies drop the items they used. Sure it's a feature that adds to realism. A sword doesn't suddenly break just because the wielder dies. However, it destroys certain parts of the gameplay. And it's really annoying to check 30 loot piles on the ground just to find the one pile that contains a magic weapon.
BG2 - no pairing NPCs, controversial I know, but I liked the RP-ness pairings brought, also, as mentioned a dozen times above me, lack of evil NPCs and being generally shunned to play a good guy
BGToB - I actually quite enjoyed it's linear nature, what, you want some wilderness to explore? Why? You're an epic level character, what could you possibly gain from adventuring. Although I wish it were larger, I think it could have benefited with being it's own game rather than as an expansion. I did love the ending though, especially for each NPC you had, that was a nice touch.
One thing someone mentioned about the strength belts, I'm in agreement, which is why I hope Item Revisions (the mod) will work since it solves the issue by giving them bonuses to strength, not fixing them to a certain number. That, and Spell Revisions are possibly my two favourite mods.
We should do a 'favourite things about BG' thread.
Traps, plus kobolds, plus bad pathfinding invites crazy.