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[spoiler] was it really irenicus in the players dreams, or bhaal?

unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 268
Before SoD I was convinced that bhaal was alive and aware within all of his offspring. The first clue was early in BG1 when you hear a disembodied voice in your dreams after clearing the nashkel mines, and waking up to find you have some speical abilities. This continues throughout BG, and the disembodied voice takes on various physical forms of people that the player killed before. Then in SoA the voice takes on the appearance of irenicus, then sarevok and then imoen.

This voice apparantly had the sentience to recognize people who the player was close to in some way or another.

And then SoD happened. I don't see how "mysterious cowled pervert" satisfies the definitions of "people close to the player character". So that kind of challenges the way things were in BG and SoA as I thought of them.
Post edited by unavailable on

Comments

  • KuronaKurona Member Posts: 881
    edited September 2016
    In BG2 Dream Irenicus is not Irenicus but the essence of Bhaal taking form. In SoD... I'm not sure. Even after replaying and putting specific attention into it, SoD dreams are just weird and it's unclear if they're of the same nature or if Irenicus is actually influencing them this time. Somehow.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited September 2016
    In my mind, the voice is not of Bhaal, but of the 'taint'. In effect, the voice and presence in dreams is the portion of the vast power of a dead god, that still has some limited sentience. It is NOT Bhaal, per se, but a tiny part of his power. That tiny part is in every Bhaalspawn. Some has more, some has less. Bhaal only comes semi-'alive' and fully sentient momentarily when Solar questions both the main antagonist and about his/her plans at the near end of ToB, and the antagonist faces off with Bhaal and laughs about how he/she has deceived Bhaal, and that he will remain dust.

    In SoD dreams, Irenicus himself may be affecting those, he may be intervening directly in the dreams. In bg2 dreams, I think Irenicus does not do a thing, the taint continues this notion, because subconcious likes to think so, and the taint masquarades as Irenicus and Imoen. In bg2 Irenicus is far too busy within Spellhold and his other plans to enter dreams.
    Aethernaut
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    This is not a section with the SPOILER tag, as you are talking of relevant parts of the plot I ask to the OP to add a spoiler tag to the tread title, thing that can be done editing the OP post.
    I play BG2 from 15 years or more, so there is little that I can be spoiled about, but I carefully avoid to read the SoD section as I would like to play a completely not spoiled first run when I will buy and play that game.
    And I was not pleased to know here that also there charname has dreams.
    I image that for first time players of the whole saga can be even worst, as 3 different games are spoiled at once.
    Thank you.
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    i'm not sure either. it may be irenicous entering your dreams and these events are what made bhaal take his form in 2.
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 268
    edited September 2016

    This is not a section with the SPOILER tag, as you are talking of relevant parts of the plot I ask to the OP to add a spoiler tag to the tread title, thing that can be done editing the OP post.
    I play BG2 from 15 years or more, so there is little that I can be spoiled about, but I carefully avoid to read the SoD section as I would like to play a completely not spoiled first run when I will buy and play that game.
    And I was not pleased to know here that also there charname has dreams.
    I image that for first time players of the whole saga can be even worst, as 3 different games are spoiled at once.
    Thank you.

    Done.

    I'm not actually sure what happened. SoD was supposed to make the transition easier, but playing it left me more confused than before. My problem is that I feel like beamdog are revising or misinterpreting the narrations of BGI, and sequences of BGII. It was originally implied that charname was actually two people in one, sort of like a split personality disorder. Now beamdog seem to think that it was all irenicus. I know he's a mad genius, but he's not a god.
    Sanctifer
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Many thanks! Really appreciated.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    I see the dream sequences I'm bg2 as just your own subconcious trying to process your experiences in the dungeon. Neither Bhaal or Irenicus is involved (beyond, of course, a part of you bring Bhaalian and it being memories of Irenicus), it's all you.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    My call on the subject is that, in BG2, the dreams use the appearance of someone PC hates, just to emphasize on that hatred, and Irenicus being the main villain this works just fine. Besides, most of your dreams are about accepting your innate power and your heritage, which Irenicus mentions in the opening cutscene. By the way, most dialogues concerning the main, before-Spellhold plot have three options, basically summed up thus:
    1- I wanna retrieve Imoen
    2- I wanna make Irenicus pay
    3- I wanna make Irenicus pay, but first he'll tell me about my power.

    The fact that PC got tortured with only one goal from Irenicus (unlocking his power) must have made PC think, whether consciously or not, that Irenicus is the key to PC's power, which is rather true, whether he directly helps by stimulating your essence, or indirectly helps by gorging your hatred, hence the dreams. Hatred is, from what Sarevok tells us in Hell, one way to embrace Bhaal's essence.
    gorgonzola
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @unavailable

    I'm not actually sure what happened. SoD was supposed to make the transition easier, but playing it left me more confused than before. My problem is that I feel like beamdog are revising or misinterpreting the narrations of BGI, and sequences of BGII. It was originally implied that charname was actually two people in one, sort of like a split personality disorder. Now beamdog seem to think that it was all irenicus. I know he's a mad genius, but he's not a god.

    I've just restarted SOD because first attempt made me so angry I gave up. So just playing it as a game now and trying hard to basically ignore all the Irenicus stuff.

    I've just had a dream sequence where Imoen asks me to kill her, she can't go on ect.

    So Imoen, the annoyingly cheerful brat from the first game is all emo in SOD for no reason because she hasn't been imprisoned or tortured by Irenicus yet?

    The game is good, but the writing, what were they thinking?
    OK, they managed to get David Warner back on board, that's really not a good enough excuse to retro change the story just to overuse the voice acting.

    The dreams now make no sense. I interpretated them as you did.

    In BG it was the voice of Bhaal, the taint, trying to get you to accept the legacy (because he needs the Bhaalspawn to kill each other, that's the big plan).

    In BG2, Irenicus has managed to awaken the taint more, it's voice is stronger. But because it was literally "totured out of you" by Irenicus, (and the game is biased towards the idea that Charname doen't want to become the new Lord of Murder) you hear the "voice" as Irenicus, the instruction coming from Irenicus, but it's always Bhaal really.

    With SOD, it seems to be saying Irnicus already had a hotline to your subconscious, so that begs the question, what was all the elaborate dungeon and torture for?
    He was feeling bored?

    gorgonzolaRavenslightBaptor
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470

    @unavailable

    I'm not actually sure what happened. SoD was supposed to make the transition easier, but playing it left me more confused than before. My problem is that I feel like beamdog are revising or misinterpreting the narrations of BGI, and sequences of BGII. It was originally implied that charname was actually two people in one, sort of like a split personality disorder. Now beamdog seem to think that it was all irenicus. I know he's a mad genius, but he's not a god.

    I've just restarted SOD because first attempt made me so angry I gave up. So just playing it as a game now and trying hard to basically ignore all the Irenicus stuff.

    I've just had a dream sequence where Imoen asks me to kill her, she can't go on ect.

    So Imoen, the annoyingly cheerful brat from the first game is all emo in SOD for no reason because she hasn't been imprisoned or tortured by Irenicus yet?

    The game is good, but the writing, what were they thinking?
    OK, they managed to get David Warner back on board, that's really not a good enough excuse to retro change the story just to overuse the voice acting.

    The dreams now make no sense. I interpretated them as you did.

    In BG it was the voice of Bhaal, the taint, trying to get you to accept the legacy (because he needs the Bhaalspawn to kill each other, that's the big plan).

    In BG2, Irenicus has managed to awaken the taint more, it's voice is stronger. But because it was literally "totured out of you" by Irenicus, (and the game is biased towards the idea that Charname doen't want to become the new Lord of Murder) you hear the "voice" as Irenicus, the instruction coming from Irenicus, but it's always Bhaal really.

    With SOD, it seems to be saying Irnicus already had a hotline to your subconscious, so that begs the question, what was all the elaborate dungeon and torture for?
    He was feeling bored?

    The characters in your dream is the taint. Just because you overcame the taint in the first game doesn't mean it's going to stop. The essence of bhaal wants you to kill all the other bhaalspawns so he can be revived.

    In the first dream, you asked about how you feel about killing Sarevok. The taint is trying to understand your reasons for killing another bhaalspawn and hopefully from that knowledge it can attempt to tempt you into killing the others.

    The second dream it's trying to use your emotions into killing another bhaalspawn whose close to you named Imoen.

    The third dream the taint uses Corwin and her daughter to try and tell you that your duty is to kill the other bhaalspawn.

    The reason the taint takes on the hooded man 's figured is to disguise itself to put you off guard.

    The whole Irenicuis torturing you in the dungeon is to see how much power the taint has in hopes it will be enough to save him from the curse.
    JuliusBorisov
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @Alexisisinneed

    Ist dream, Ok that ties in with BG.

    2nd dream, makes no sense, you don't know at this point that Imoen is a Bhaalspawn. In fact, until the second game was written, she actually wasn't, So at this point in the saga, it definately shouldn't be hinted at. Just messes up the big reveal later.

    2nd dream, why Corwin and daughter unless they are connected to the Bhaalspawn. Are they, is the daughter a Bhaalspawn, wouldn't put it past the writers, they sure do love their new NPC.

    Using the "hooded man" makes no sense at all.

    At no point does Irenicus talk about the level of power he requires in BG2, it's about releasing the power ( I presume) so he can do the soul transfer.
    OK, it's all a bit "so how does that make any sense", but it can be put down to artistic licence.
    Not so much license when you are messing around with other people's creations.

    gorgonzola
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470

    @Alexisisinneed

    Ist dream, Ok that ties in with BG.

    2nd dream, makes no sense, you don't know at this point that Imoen is a Bhaalspawn. In fact, until the second game was written, she actually wasn't, So at this point in the saga, it definately shouldn't be hinted at. Just messes up the big reveal later.

    2nd dream, why Corwin and daughter unless they are connected to the Bhaalspawn. Are they, is the daughter a Bhaalspawn, wouldn't put it past the writers, they sure do love their new NPC.

    Using the "hooded man" makes no sense at all.

    At no point does Irenicus talk about the level of power he requires in BG2, it's about releasing the power ( I presume) so he can do the soul transfer.
    OK, it's all a bit "so how does that make any sense", but it can be put down to artistic licence.
    Not so much license when you are messing around with other people's creations.

    Yes you don't know that she's a bhaalspwan, but that doesn't mean the taint inside you doesn't know.

    No, their probably not bhaalspawns, but at the same time Corwin is a character that is bound to her duty and that's why she left her daughter to go fight in SOD. That taint is using her as an example to tell you it's your duty to kill the other bhaalspawns.

    Yes it does. Because the Taint knows you rejected it in the first game so it's using a person that you just met that you're curious about. It wants you to be interested in it's offer.

    All we know is that Irenicuis was testing both the PC and Caelar because they both had divine blood in them. PC came out as this winner of the conflict so Irenicuis choose the PC. Also we have no idea how or what it takes to do the soul transfer spell. It could be all the torture in the dungeon was him trying to and failing to transfer the soul.

    Going back to the dreams. Theres more proof that the characters in the dreams are the taint. The thing that attacks you at the end of every dream is the Slayer form. The taint is trying to tempt you with the slayer form. Giving you more power in the hopes you will kill more bhaalspawns. This is proven during the dream in which you're given the slayer ability. The PC calls the taint out saying that it's not Imoen in which the taint doesn't deny.
    SanctiferJuliusBorisov
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    this now makes more ssense. the dreams in sod are setting the seeds for the ones in 2. looking at it at face value it sseems like a plot whole due to the hooded man being in the dreams. but now that i think about it more, this was when the taint started talking this form so now it's more consistant with bg2's dreams.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @megamike15

    And that's where SOD fails so badly storywise.

    BG2 is based on something unexpected happening in the Bhaalspawn saga, Irenicus.
    It isn't until TOB that that saga gets back on track, killing Bhaalspawn, fighting for the throne because you offer slightly more hope for Faerun than the others.

    The writers of BG2, I think, deliberately set up the scenario they did to make a cleanish break from BG. In some ways I wasn't that keen, but it allowed for a hugely expanded game and also allow a new audience to play the game.

    BG2 does not need and has never needed any expansion on the themes that it developed because they were so well incorporated at the time.

    BG1, on the other hand, ends just after you discover you are Bhaalspawn. There was so much potential to fill in the year following before Irenicus as you come to terms with the implications.
    And keep the orignal integrity of BG2 of Irenicus being an unexpected (in prophecy terms) outlier that sets you back because of his actions to square one.
  • unavailableunavailable Member Posts: 268
    edited October 2016
    to be honest, I think the BG2 team had nothing planned for a sequel and expected the first one to fail. Irenicus seemed like a side quest gone out of control, and the city of athkatla especially is filled with stuff like the sewer illithids, and slavers like sion, keeta, the mysterious "Mr F", etc.

    Good game, but it was definitely developed in haste. If the 1990s were as industrial as gaming is today every other developer would have 10 years worth of sequels planned "just in case".
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @Alexisisinneed

    Why does the game assume you are interested in Corwin? She's awful.
    Does the dream change if you haven't taken her along?

    And you met her what, a few weeks ago, when you have the option to take along NPC you have fought with to survive almost since leaving Candlekeep.

    Can you not see the big difference between having your dreams invaded by somebody you kill (because ending a person's life is slightly more disturbing than listening to some career driven bore you have just met) and somebody the writers decide you like/are interested in?

    Would have been far more in keeping with BG to have a leader who believed in Caelar that you had to kill invading your dreams, a la Mulahay.
    More powerful as well.
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470

    @Alexisisinneed

    Why does the game assume you are interested in Corwin? She's awful.
    Does the dream change if you haven't taken her along?

    And you met her what, a few weeks ago, when you have the option to take along NPC you have fought with to survive almost since leaving Candlekeep.

    Can you not see the big difference between having your dreams invaded by somebody you kill (because ending a person's life is slightly more disturbing than listening to some career driven bore you have just met) and somebody the writers decide you like/are interested in?

    Would have been far more in keeping with BG to have a leader who believed in Caelar that you had to kill invading your dreams, a la Mulahay.
    More powerful as well.

    It's not assuming anything, it's just Corwin is the best and most recent example of duty. Also no it doesn't change.

    It could be more disturbing, but I believe the taint is very desperate in this game so it's trying everything it can do. Also the taint did kind of do that with the first dream and unless your playing a character that plans to embrace you bhaal powers you pretty much tell Sarevok to f off. So the taint knows your not interested in dead guys.

    It could have been interesting, but remember Caelar wasn't a bhaalspawn so it wouldn't fit with the Taints agenda to get you to kill more bhaalspawn.
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    The presence of the hooded man and his presence in the dreams still make no sense to me. Worst part of SoD.
    Baptor
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    lroumen said:

    The presence of the hooded man and his presence in the dreams still make no sense to me. Worst part of SoD.

    If you played through Sod you know that the hooded man is Irenicuis and during the events of SOD he is scouting out the PC and Caelar to see which out of the two has the stronger divine essence.

    If you read my earlier comments you could believe that the hooded man in the dreams is the taint of bhaal inside you.
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    I know that was the intention, but it just distracts from the real story of SoD.

    I figure they had a great story going on with the shining lady and the end game revelation and then someone decided to somehow try to force the hooded man onto the player to get the game to match bg2. He is just as see through as miss ToB if not worse. If you leave out all his parts then SoD is a lot better.
    Also, why is he always everywhere and none of the npcs finds that odd?
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    @Alexisisinneed

    Of course we all know it's Irenicus. That's what is wrong with the story, they should have left well alone something that is so important to the impact of BG2. That you wake up without a clue, companions murdered, Imoen and yourself tortured, no idea who or why this has been done, and how do you even start to pull yoursef together.

    @Iroumen

    Couldn't agree more, it's blatent shoe horning in an element of the saga that the original hadn't started at this point in time for very important reasons.
    KuronascriverBaptor
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,666
    you know who he is not charname. he never announces who he is at all in sod. the mystery is still there about who this strange mage who kidnapped you is. there is just more foreshadowing bits that try to make bg2 fit more into the over arching plot as before that it felt more disconnected.
  • AndrewFoleyAndrewFoley Member Posts: 744
    As I recall, in BGII, the dreams are from Bhaal/the taint.

    In SoD (also as I recall),

    The Hooded Man is interfering with/visiting Charname's dreams, something he's able to do until near the end, when Charname has sufficient power to kick him out of their head. I don't have access to the dialogue anymore, but I'm pretty sure this is stated fairly explicitly by The Hooded Man shortly after Charname remembers exactly what happened to Skie. The Hooded Man wants Charname to believe, or at least wonder if, they killed Skie while dreaming of a monster; in fact Charname was strong enough at the time to resist his command and then strong enough later to remember what truly happened. At that point, the Hooded Man loses any influence over Charname and can no longer invade their subconscious.

    I *think* the intent might even have been to suggest that that's the moment when The Hooded Man really appreciates the scope of Charname's power, both realized and potential, and decides they're the one he's been looking for, but don't quote me on that.
    NimranBaptor
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