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Questions about Dorn in BG2

I know Dorn's personal quests involve doing awful things that will ruin your reputation and make a lot of enemies in Amn, but since in the BG games there is no reason to be overtly evil, that is you are punished more than rewarded for having a low reputation: higher prices, closed off content and items, constantly fighting hunters; I ask can one recruit Dorn and simply ignore his Quests? That is if I never enter the Order of the Radiant Heart with Dorn in my party, either completing its related quests before recruiting him or kicking him out of the party temporarily while entering the building, can I complete the game with him, without screwing over my reputation, or will Dorn complain and/or leave the party if I ignore his quest for too long? I know I'd miss out on some loot, but I'm willing to forgo it not being stupid evil, and just take Dorn along for his combat prowess and banter. Also does Dorn interfere with any romances since he will romance any PC? Will he, for instance, get angry if I romance Viconia and/or leave the party and/or attack Viconia?

Comments

  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    edited November 2016
    Dorn's quests actually aren't that bad. If you play your cards right you can get away with maybe losing 1 or 2 points of reputation at most - there's only a couple of instances where killing everyone in sight is completely unavoidable. He will complain and probably end up leaving if you ignore his quests.

    There is one point in Dorn's romance where he propositions you. If you accept you will break off every other potential romance in your party. Other than that, if you have two romances going on at the same time they'll argue and you'll have a decision to make.
    Post edited by TheArtisan on
    ThacoBell
  • ReddbaneReddbane Member Posts: 222

    Dorn's quests actually aren't that bad. If you play your cards right you can get away with maybe losing 1 or 2 points of reputation at most - there's only a couple of instances where killing everyone in sight is completely unavoidable. He will complain and probably end up leaving if you ignore his quests.

    Are you sure about that though? Both the leaving and the reputation loss. At the very least does Dorn close off some areas?

    What about Thone of Bhaal? I heard even if you convince him to abandon the demons you still have to kill some celestials, which seems to be a rather no going back type of evil in the FR setting.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    It is totally possible to get through Dorn's quests with <5 rep loss. He does end up closing off the paladin stronghold I believe though.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Yes, Dorn will eventually leave if you ignore his quests.

    You can fully complete Dorn's questline for a REP loss of only ... er ... 3 points. (I think that's the right figure, although I won't swear to it; in any case, it's not a vast amount and is easily recovered by doing some Good quests or just buying some REP at a temple.) Of course, if you actually wanted to play a mad-axeman, then you could lose more REP in Dorn's quests if you wish!

    So far as I recall, there's no REP loss for Dorn's ToB quest. (Yes, I agree that's odd.)

    No, Dorn's questline doesn't permanently shut you out of the Paladin stronghold. It does lock you out for a while after his first quest, but it eventually goes back to normal ... I think that happens when his second quest starts. (Although if you did Dorn's first quest but then dropped him without ever doing his second quest, I don't know what would happen, maybe it'd never return to normal.)

    On the other hand, there's a new area to which you gain access only by doing Dorn's second quest, and another new area for Dorn's third quest. However, once you've done that, the new areas remain accessible even if you then drop Dorn (although there's nothing to do there after completing Dorn's quests, so there's little point in returning).
    ThacoBell
  • ReddbaneReddbane Member Posts: 222
    @Gallowglass
    Do you still have to go on a killing spree in Heaven, even if you choose the "Good" path for Dorn, giving up his powers so he no longer takes orders from demons and/or devils? I can roleplay a party with a redeemed if de-powered Dorn, but if I still have to eventually invade Heaven and "murder" a bunch of beings who are the literal embodiment of all that is Good and Lawful in the universe, just to scribble out our names from a divine logbook, then the whole abandoning evil seems to have no point.

    Dorn's Shadows of Amn quest seems interesting enough, but from what I've seen the Throne of Bhaal one is rather stupid, or at least magnifies the stupidest parts of the Forgotten Realms mythology.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Reddbane said:

    Do you still have to go on a killing spree in Heaven, even if you choose the "Good" path for Dorn, giving up his powers so he no longer takes orders from demons and/or devils?

    I'm not entirely sure, but I think you're still obliged to do this to keep Dorn.

    Dorn's ToB quest starts when you're attacked (in a transition ambush) by a celestial and some minions, and you'll be forced to defend yourself (which means slaughtering the minions and injuring the celestial). Then you can follow up by assaulting Lunia (Heaven) to get your name deleted from the Scroll of Retribution, but you're not forced to do that immediately - you can wait until later. However, if you never do it, then I assume that Dorn would eventually leave you to try it on his own, just as he does if you ignore his SoA quests ... but I've never tried ignoring it for very long, so maybe (just maybe!) it's not compulsory.
    Reddbane said:

    ... the whole abandoning evil seems to have no point.

    Dorn's Shadows of Amn quest seems interesting enough, but from what I've seen the Throne of Bhaal one is rather stupid, or at least magnifies the stupidest parts of the Forgotten Realms mythology.

    I agree. I find Dorn's quests very plausible in BG1ee, decreasingly credible in BG2ee:SoA, and absurd in BG2ee:ToB ... his story quality is a sad decline after a promising start.
    ThacoBell
  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    I don't mind the Resurrection Gorge, but the events leading up to it in BG2 are the most ridiculous nonsense among the EENPCs. I'm thinking of modding so that you can somehow convince Dorn and skip past the senseless slaughter.
  • ReddbaneReddbane Member Posts: 222
    Is there a way in EEkeeper editing the variables I can keep his TOB quest from spawning, just so I can avoid the whole endgame celestial stupidity? (The whole thing strikes me as a bad knockoff of the Mask of the Betrayer Finale; of course there you were fighting cosmic injustice, and the issue had more subtle philosophical underpinnings, but Dorn's quest is essentially a goofy celestial heist to acquire a cosmic "get out of jail free card".)

    @Gallowglass
    I really wish they had bothered to give Dorn some development along the lines of Sarevok. I wouldn't even mind him losing his Blackguard Powers if we were given the chance to redeem or at least deepen the character, so that evil players are rewarded with power, while good players are rewarded with story and/or a feeling of catharsis in exchange for a nerfed character (which is essentially the same thematic decision you will have to make at the end of the game). I don't even know why the player would be enticed to give up the diabolic powers if Dorn remains the same miserable scumbag. By the end of the game do we even know who Dorn is? Besides a angry half-orc who wants "powah" (as if that was an end in itself) and is "supah eviluz".
    ThacoBell
  • ReddbaneReddbane Member Posts: 222
    edited November 2016
    @Artemius_I
    I'd love if there was a story focused mod that allowed Dorn to repent and make more Stat sacrifices, akin to the ones the PC makes--maybe some HP, Strength, Dexterity, and experience loss--in exchange for changing alignment and perhaps becoming a regular paladin. Perhaps coming to terms with his personality issues, and turning himself over to the order and being sent on an arduous journey to repent, where presumably he make his sacrifices, and only then being allowed to cease being fallen. It's amazing what Stat nerfs I (and indeed most players) will put up with if the story and characters are convincing enough; after all, I never hesitated to sacrifice my HP to save Morte from the tower of skulls in Planescape.
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    edited November 2016
    I really don't see him as being a candidate for redemption. The reason he wants to be free from his patron is because he doesn't get the respect he thinks he deserves. There's nothing that indicates he's inclined to becomming a better person. Other evil NPC have some redeeming qualities, but there's no indication that there was ever any good in Dorn. But I agree his story lacks some new purpose after he becomes free. The logical step would be that he works with charname to help him become a god an become an archfiend himself.
    GallowglassThacoBell
  • ReddbaneReddbane Member Posts: 222
    @Francois
    The problem is Dorn doesn't seem to have much of a personality outside of wanting power. The thing about the original Bioware Evil NPCs, is that they were either amusing (Edwin, Korgan, Xzar) or sympathetic (Viconia, Sarevok), if not both. Dorn is neither amusing nor likable, in fact he is rather unpleasant to be around, and what popularity he has seems to stem from his 19 Strength and fancy Blackguard powers alone, but once you take that away what purpose does he have in sticking around: personality wise he is almost as dull as Cernd. A modder can't give Dorn a sense of humor, but at least someone could give the character through text a chance to be liked or at least understood by the player.

    I'm using him in BG1 because he's one of the few good tanks you can bring into SOD, but in BG2 I'm finding myself much more inclined to use Korgan, because at least he's having fun murdering people.
    ThacoBell
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @Reddbane - sorry, no, I can't agree.

    As Dorn explains his backstory during BG1ee, it becomes abundantly clear that he was already a despicably Evil bastard - a mass murderer, the "Butcher of Barrow" - even before he became a Blackguard. He was never a very credible candidate for redemption.

    Furthermore, in FR lore, all Blackguards are meant to be inherently irredeemable, so it's too late now for Dorn's redemption (even if it were ever plausible). Blackguards also aren't supposed to be able (or even wish) to "break free" of their patrons; they are completely committed to Evil.

    I do agree that the in-game consequences of Dorn "breaking free" don't make much story sense, but my answer is that it was a blunder in the writing that he was ever given such an option at all. I reckon he should just have the possibility of changing patron, and the option to dispense with both patrons ought to be deleted altogether.

    This might well mean that most Good parties wouldn't be interested in taking him along (at least not more than temporarily) ... but so be it, good guys aren't intended to like Blackguards.
  • ReddbaneReddbane Member Posts: 222
    Just discussing him is making me realize that Dorn is too much of an Edgelord to take seriously, much less put up with.
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