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Would people be interested in a 'hardcore gameplay' mod?

subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
edited December 2016 in General Modding
I've had a number of ideas of the years, to nerf all sorts of stuff in these games. I never implemented most of them, because most players don't like stuff to be nerfed. But maybe it's worth creating a collection of nerfs, to give longtime players a bit more challenge and force people out of their comfort zones...? Maybe call is something like DMAJ - for "the Dungeon Master's A Jerk." :mrgreen:

If people like the idea and contribute possible components, we could code it up as a compilation of hardcore tweaks. Here are some notes I have in my phone:

- No Murder XP: reduce XP for kills so no grinding - you rely on quest XP

- PnP Dual-Classing: you can't continue up to specialization/grandmastery in any more weapons after dualling away from warriors classes

- Less-Improved Alacrity: add 1-second disable spell buttons to every spell

- PnP Immunity spells: the Immunity: [school] spells will only block a single spell from the indicated school.

- Sorcerers Can't Cast from Scrolls: what it says

- No Cast & Fight: have every spell set APR to 0 for a few seconds

- No Chugging Potions: make all potions like Goodberries - can't drink them from the inventory screen

- Visible Staff of the Magi: make its invisibility a usable ability instead of an instant equipping effect

- Speed weapons only work in main hand: what it says

- Further: *all* passive effects only work in main hand


All of those are definitely possible to do, as a technical matter. (Though the last two would be a bit tricky.)

Would this be a waste of time? Or would people be interested in it? Does anyone have other ideas for little hardcore mod components? Go ahead and post them here, and we'll see what's possible to implement.

Post edited by subtledoctor on
JuliusBorisovAerakar

Comments

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,716
    Yes, I would like to try a mod like that, if it were SCS-compatible.

    AerakarCrevsDaak
  • chimaerachimaera Member Posts: 956
    Can't speak for other people, but I would certainly be interested.

    If there is one trend in games that I hate with a passion, it's the "give enemies more hps and make them hit harder on higher difficulties' approach. It's boring. Anything that adds challenge by implementing different designs is a welcome change. (even should I dislike a particular feature after trying it out)

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,718
    One change that would have a big effect on my strategies would be to prevent any changing areas when in combat. I don't know how you could achieve that, but if it's possible to put a general prohibition on travel in the same way as there's a general prohibition on changing armor in combat that might work well. An alternative might be to do things specific to fights as is already done to some extent, e.g. BGEE disallows movement out of the palace once that combat is triggered, but I guess that would probably require separate coding for each fight and I don't think that would be worthwhile.

    JuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • yowaveyowave Member Posts: 67
    Personally i don't think that you need a mod for this, you can already do those things in the game.
    The mod will only make sure that one can't "cheat", so in an essence it takes control from the user, which is never good!

    You should think differently.
    Taking is easy, giving is harder.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    yowave said:

    Personally i don't think that you need a mod for this, you can already do those things in the game.
    The mod will only make sure that one can't "cheat", so in an essence it takes control from the user, which is never good!

    The point is not to disallow cheating - anyone can control themselves if they like. The point would be to impose certain tactical restrictions to encourage variety in gameplay for veteran players. If a mod like this finds a receptive audience, it could be a generally understood set of restrictions, so maybe for Let's Play threads, in addition to seeing stuff like "Solo No-Reload LOB Poverty Run," you might see "Solo Insane SCS + SD Hardcore Mod Run."
    yowave said:

    You should think differently.
    Taking is easy, giving is harder.

    Are you kidding? Giving is way easier than taking in a way that is intelligent and not fun-destroying. Have you seen any of the mods out there? The item packs? It is super easy to add all manner of Hackmaster +12s to the game. Or to remove player limits like the Haste/Free Action conflict, or a hundred other ways to make things easier for the player. I am the one thinking differently, here.

  • yowaveyowave Member Posts: 67
    edited December 2016
    @subtledoctor Let me tell you a bit about giving. items that adds xyz stats, are easy to give that's true.
    But i wasn't talking about items. And if i was, the kind of items or item i would give, would be interesting enough to change the way you play.

    My interpretation of giving is different than yours.
    i am talking about introducing a new adventure that should be engaging, and will test the abilities of the user.
    Or introducing new encounters, with new types of monsters/Humanoids, with new and interesting powers.
    Or enhancing existing encounters and monsters, i am not talking only about stats.

    SCS,Ascension,Wheels of Prophecy etc... this mods GIVE without TAKING.

    Taking is easy, giving is harder.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    edited December 2016
    I think tweak mods can 'give' according to your terminology. My mods give players more choice, adding dozens of new kits, hundreds of new spells/abilities, entire new ability systems like psionics, and replay variability with modified NPCs to have games with more and different classes.

    Now, I'm not a quest/content modder; it's just not what I do. Don't have the time. Other people do that, and more people should do that - I've said so before. You should absolutely feel free to post threads about that stuff, and I will be right there with you.

    But this thread is not about that. This thread is about discussing a tweak mod, designed around restricting certain aspects of the game. If that is not to your taste, or not what you're looking for, that is 100% okay. In which case, how about we make room for other people, who maybe are interested in it, to give some input. Get a conversation going, instead of shutting conversation down. :wink:

  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 591
    Out of curiosity, how do you plan to implement "PnP spell immunity" thing?

  • yowaveyowave Member Posts: 67
    I am giving you my input about taking control from the user, which i think is bad.
    I wasn't shutting your conversation, telling someone to keep their opinion to themselves is.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    Aasim said:

    Out of curiosity, how do you plan to implement "PnP spell immunity" thing?

    More or less: patch all spells, filter by targeting parameters, filter by school, and add a 321 effect removing the Immunity spell from the target.

    Of course the spell itself should not have any effect. I *think* the 321 effect can be last in the order... if necessary it can just cast a subspell, maybe on a 1-second delay, to be absolutely sure the Immunity spell does stop that first one.

    I think the Immunity spells would still be worthwhile here, because it would still be another layer of protection. It would give the mage a bit more breathing room, rather than blanket immunity.

  • AWizardDidItAWizardDidIt Member Posts: 120
    This doesn't even really sound like "hardcore" mod just a mod to get rid of player cheese XD

    This sounds like a great suite of changes, so count me interested.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    @AWizardDidIt I don't know if most of that stuff is actually cheesy (except the SotM, which is super crazy cheesy :tongue: ). Mostly I guess these ideas move the rules in the direction of PnP... a version of PnP with a stingy DM :wink:

    Btw if anyone has other ideas, go ahead and post them. I think have a pretty good sense of what is possible, I can sort through feasible vs. unfeasible ideas.

  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 591

    Aasim said:

    Out of curiosity, how do you plan to implement "PnP spell immunity" thing?

    More or less: patch all spells, filter by targeting parameters, filter by school, and add a 321 effect removing the Immunity spell from the target.

    Of course the spell itself should not have any effect. I *think* the 321 effect can be last in the order... if necessary it can just cast a subspell, maybe on a 1-second delay, to be absolutely sure the Immunity spell does stop that first one.

    I think the Immunity spells would still be worthwhile here, because it would still be another layer of protection. It would give the mage a bit more breathing room, rather than blanket immunity.
    That's all cool; but how can you do this for things such as cloud-based spells, webs, True Seeing and other "tick" spells?
    I remember when Demi and I discussed SRv4 tweaks, my idea of SI:Div (Nondetection with SR now) was that it stops 1st Divination spell cast against it and then dissapears, similar to Dispelling Screen....but I don't know how this can be done. It's easy enough vs Oracle for example. But ticking spells? Should the "last tick" dispel SI? The first one? Clouds are even worse, since they use a .pro file rather than a bunch of delayed 146s.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    Well, only speaking off the top of my head:

    1) I have to guess that your conversation with Demi occurred without consideration of opcode 321, since he steadfastly (admirably) mandates SR's compatibility with the pre-EE game. 321 makes this kind of thing way, way easier.

    2) I supposed on the first 'tick' ...? Maybe a reasonable delay could be factored in to allow you to exit the cloud, or something. Like I say, even just being able to avoid being affected for an extra six seconds is a big advantage, for a spellcaster.

    Alternatively, the Immunity spell could confer complete ongoing resistance to things like clouds. Immunity to all indirect applications of a spell school, or to a single direct application of such a spell. That's not too confusing.

  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 591
    Yea, we were working (and still are actually) with appending MSCETYPE.2da file so the thing works on vanilla engine.
    This perhaps might be coded to work somehow (I'm not too sure about it; in fact, I can see numerous issues with whatever you decide on when 321 would be applied, such as having more than one cloud spell in the field, having more than one caster against you; then you've got Ice Storms.....); but give it a go.
    I'm not too keen on "PnP Spell Immunity" simply because BG2 spell system has nothing to do with PnP in the first place; where you'd search for ingredients, pay attention to what's happening and where spells such as Know Alignment and similar have a meaning. BG2 eventually turns into ADHW/Dragon's Breath galore; with a few select fights which require a more strategic approach. Also, having AI "understand" this kind of tweak is impossible - AI will generally use the highest memorized spell to remove your immunity while the player would use the lowest applicable spell for the very same job. This wouldn't make the game any harder, it would make AI look more dumb than it is.

  • cloudkillbeatsallcloudkillbeatsall Member Posts: 98
    Adding a component to reduce quest experience would be nice. I like not levelling as fast but I don't want to feel that my kills are meaningless.

    Francois
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    Speaking for myself, anything that nerfs or restricts wands would be a good challenge. It gets to a point where I barely use memorized spells. Wands of fire and fear and greatly overpowered in BG1/SoD, especially since you can sell/buy them to recharge. A kind of mod that would severely restrict the availability of wands and potions would be interesting (of course I could do that by simple willpower).

    It might be interesting to get a mod where items would have a strong probability of not spawning (except for quest item). Once you are familiar with the game, the number of good weapons/armor/items is overwhelming. After playing one evening on BG2 I have weapons powerful enough to easily finish the rest of the game.

  • BrecherBrecher Member Posts: 35
    edited December 2016
    - No murder XP
    EET_TWEAKS already offers a lot of flexibility:
    Adjust total XP CAP: 1.3
    Adjust XP for Traps, Spells and Lockpicking: 1.3
    Adjust XP for killing creatures: 1.3
    Adjust XP for quests: 1.3

    @Grond0
    Try Improved Anvil. You won't be able to flee anymore in important fights. But IA is hard.

    @Francois
    There are mods out there which randomly distribute powerful items (Improved Anvil, Item randomiser). I don't know if something like that is available for BGEE

    Grond0
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,718
    Brecher said:

    @Grond0
    Try Improved Anvil. You won't be able to flee anymore in important fights. But IA is hard.

    Thanks for the thought @Brecher. I have looked at that mod a couple of times in the past, but don't think it's for me. Critto's views on what constitutes cheese are just too different to the way I like to play the game - for instance the idea that your characters should stand still and fight rather than run around and shoot enemies seems odd to me.

  • BrecherBrecher Member Posts: 35
    Grond0 said:

    Brecher said:

    @Grond0
    Try Improved Anvil. You won't be able to flee anymore in important fights. But IA is hard.

    Thanks for the thought @Brecher. I have looked at that mod a couple of times in the past, but don't think it's for me. Critto's views on what constitutes cheese are just too different to the way I like to play the game - for instance the idea that your characters should stand still and fight rather than run around and shoot enemies seems odd to me.
    @Grond0
    I would say, give it a shot if you are interested in a challenge. Imho, IA is well balanced in terms of items and resources, adds nice Quests and is a tactical challenge.
    In the end, you can play it like you want, except that the area transitions are disabled when an important fight has started.
    I was running around like a rabbit trying to avoid Comet/Dragon Breath/3xADHW/Purge Magic... But my playstyle doesn't involve ranged weapon that much, maybe only to trigger a Contingency "on hit"...

    Grond0
  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 591
    Brecher said:


    Try Improved Anvil. You won't be able to flee anymore in important fights. But IA is hard.

    It's a good mod. Not for No-Reloads, but a good mod with virtually no bugs; and the ammount of extra content is huge. I'd definitely reccomend to at least try it out.

    Grond0JuliusBorisov
  • inethineth Member Posts: 572
    edited December 2016

    - PnP Dual-Classing: you can't continue up to specialization/grandmastery in any more weapons after dualling away from warriors classes

    This could actually be considered a bugfix...

    - PnP Immunity spells: the Immunity: [school] spells will only block a single spell from the indicated school.

    This may end up hurting SCS enemy mages more than it hurts the party.

    Would this be a waste of time? Or would people be interested in it?

    Some of them definitely sound interesting.

    Does anyone have other ideas for little hardcore mod components?

    Could you make equipped item effects non-stacking? E.g. say a character is wearing...

    1) A ring that gives +50% Fire resistance
    2) A robe that gives +20% Fire resistance and +10% magic resistance

    ...then they'd only get +50% Fire resistance and +10% magic resistance in total, because only the largest bonus of each type would count.

    Pillars of Eternity does it this way. (But note that it doesn't count weapons as equipment items, so for the same effect you could have a passive bonus from the equipped weapon + 1 passive bonus from any equipment item + 1 bonus from a modal or active ability such as a spell).

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    ineth said:

    - PnP Dual-Classing: you can't continue up to specialization/grandmastery in any more weapons after dualling away from warriors classes

    This could actually be considered a bugfix...
    I agree - this is how PnP works. If you're interested, this component actually already exists. I wrote it, and then Camdawg improved it, and it's not part of Tweaks Anthology.
    ineth said:

    Could you make equipped item effects non-stacking? E.g. say a character is wearing...

    1) A ring that gives +50% Fire resistance
    2) A robe that gives +20% Fire resistance and +10% magic resistance

    ...then they'd only get +50% Fire resistance and +10% magic resistance in total, because only the largest bonus of each type would count.

    I wish. I personally think ALL resistance effects should use the "set" parameter instead of "increment." But I'm not sure whether the engine wouldn't let smaller override greater ones if you equip them later. That would be bad.

    I guess it's worth a quick test. If the greater effect is retained, it would be super simple to use ALTER_EFFECT to patch every single instance of incrementing resistance, and change them all to set resistance.

  • cloudkillbeatsallcloudkillbeatsall Member Posts: 98
    Is the point of altering Spell Immunity to allow things like Breach to be blocked by SI:Abjuration but at the same time make it not so difficult to dispel SI:Abjuration? Wouldn't this make SI:Abjuration just another Spell Shield?

    How would SI:Divination work with True Sight? Wouldn't True Sight count as a new spell every round and any illusion would be dispelled in the second round? First round, it would dispel the protection. Second, the illusion.

  • qwerty123456qwerty123456 Member Posts: 67
    These are very niche tweaks. I tried no cast and attack, didn't have much of an effect, and it tricky to implement properly, too.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    edited December 2016
    Yeah it's looking doubtful that I'll find the time to do these - they aren't high priorities. Just thought I would gauge interest and see if people had more similar ideas.

    The cast and attack thing should be fairly simple, though. Setting APR to zero for a few seconds is effective at preventing attacks. I use it (briefly) after my psionic powers, and I apply it to my new variations of Simulacrum.

  • qwerty123456qwerty123456 Member Posts: 67
    Yes, but you need to take into account items that cast spells, and spells that cast spells, and in the end it wasn't really worth it.

  • Lord_GayLord_Gay Member Posts: 94
    I use a ton of SIRs (Self Imposed Restrictions) in all my games, but I wonder how many gamers would like them. All the posts I read on forums are from powergamers and munchkins, at least from my low-power perspective.

    1) I think hardcore challenge threads usually set their own rules each time.
    2) I know of Hard Times and Item Randomiser mods to increase difficulty and reduce metagaming.
    3) I would think a mod would have to offer features that a gamer wouldn't be able to replicate on their own by simply refraining to do something.

    a) Mods have added features to force all dialogs to pause, and also not pause on the map screen. I would like a feature that forces no pause for the inventory screen. So if you're changing weapons or looking to move items between characters, the baddies are still attacking you.
    b) I like the "no drinking from inventory" even though I've never done so myself. That should be a standard feature.
    c) For video games in general, I think they should eliminate all xp from violence completely. XP or level/power ups should only come from either quests, or key plot points in the story (like chapter change). Players would no longer be able to cheat up their levels by visiting basilisks/sirines/golems.
    d) I'd eliminate dual classing and make humans multi like everyone else.
    e) What I would LOVE.... lovelovelovelove is to have a spellcasting system of cooldown, instead of vancian magic. A system where casters have infinite casting each day, but a cooldown period before they can use that spell again. This is what I've done for my own pnp game (the one in my head). I've radically altered how I handle the magic system, and it would be wunderbar to have it in BG. I assume it's impossible though.
    f) "No Cast & Fight:" Do you mean not being to make an attack the next round, or having to wait longer between attacking/casting?
    g) There seems to be a feature where people can either attack/cast in the same round, or maybe attack/quaff in the same round. Quaffing a potion, usning an innate ability, casting a spell or attacking should all be single round actions by themselves. Once you've started something, you can't do another thing until the next round.

    On my current new game, Khalid the Hexblade started casting his Doom ability at Karlat in Beregost the instant he started approaching us. Karlat was able to finish approaching us, give his little speech, drink a potion, and then land an attack on Khalid disrupting his "spell", all before Khalid could finish.

  • qwerty123456qwerty123456 Member Posts: 67
    There are mods for that. XPmod for EXP. igi's mana based spell system (I didn't use, though).

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