Is there a canonical BG2 party? Or, help me decide on a party.
Taylan
Member Posts: 76
In BG1 it's simple: Imoen, Jaheira & Khalid, Minsc & Dynaheir. I've also read that canonically you travel with some other NPCs for a while, but that's the party you start with and evidently end the story with, given it's the party captured by Irenicus. It's a pretty well-rounded party too. Playing good alignment, it's my party of preference.
Is there a comparable setup for BG2? Jaheira and Minsc are with you, and as far as I understand Yoshimo is supposed to be kind of canon, given the things that happen with him later on. But other than that, is it safe to say it's left open?
As my main char is half mage and Jaheira half druid, I think Aerie is a fine addition, so I decided that I want to keep her. Available at the start, too. Also, Minsc's new witch! Semi-canon perhaps? Anyway, this leaves one slot open.
Jaheira is only half a fighter so with Minsc that's one and a half, perhaps leaving an additional warrior to be desired. That said, I could dual-class Yoshimo into a fighter after getting 100 points in open doors. I feel further thief levels would be wasted on him anyway, as I don't see myself using thief skills like traps and backstabbing that much. That would give me Minsc and two half fighters, which should satisfy.
Maybe I'll just leave the sixth slot flexible, at least until I get back Imoen and Yoshimo parts, as I'd be back to Minsc and Jaheira as the only front-liners at that point.
Any thoughts? Any NPC you'd say I absolutely want in my party in the long run?
Is there a comparable setup for BG2? Jaheira and Minsc are with you, and as far as I understand Yoshimo is supposed to be kind of canon, given the things that happen with him later on. But other than that, is it safe to say it's left open?
As my main char is half mage and Jaheira half druid, I think Aerie is a fine addition, so I decided that I want to keep her. Available at the start, too. Also, Minsc's new witch! Semi-canon perhaps? Anyway, this leaves one slot open.
Jaheira is only half a fighter so with Minsc that's one and a half, perhaps leaving an additional warrior to be desired. That said, I could dual-class Yoshimo into a fighter after getting 100 points in open doors. I feel further thief levels would be wasted on him anyway, as I don't see myself using thief skills like traps and backstabbing that much. That would give me Minsc and two half fighters, which should satisfy.
Maybe I'll just leave the sixth slot flexible, at least until I get back Imoen and Yoshimo parts, as I'd be back to Minsc and Jaheira as the only front-liners at that point.
Any thoughts? Any NPC you'd say I absolutely want in my party in the long run?
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If i was making a good group i would go with:
Jaheira
Rasaad
Minsc
Aerie
Yoshi - Switched out for Imoen at Spellhold
Rasaad switched for Keldorn would be stronger, but Kel's quest is no where near as fun and i always feel kinda bad essentially breaking up his family by insisting he doesn't stay at home to work on his failing marriage.
Just forget about canon, and don't worry about it. Make your own story! I also encourage people to play with the NPCs they like and simply edit their classes to what they want to play, mechanically. No need to remain within the confines of a rigid personality/performance pair. Decouple, and liberate your narrative enjoyment from mechanical demands!
Don't dual-class Yoshimo, he's a lot more useful as a Bounty Hunter with his traps. You'll have plenty of summon support between you, Aerie, Jaheira and (in the future) Imoen, so between those and Minsc/Jaheira your frontline should be secure.
That means pretty much anyone else can be your 6th, even another mage. My suggestion is to leave that slot open and rotate NPCs (so you can do their quests) before ultimately picking up Sarevok in ToB. That's as close as you can get to being faithful to the original story (though that depends on your PC, really - it would make perfect sense for a non-traditional PC to pick other NPCs) with the main exception of Aerie. Some would argue that right after Imoen gets snatched up by the Cowled Wizards the very first thing a rational person (especially a spellcaster) would do is get the hell out of the open (ie, Waukeen's Promenade) and regroup/evaluate your situation elsewhere, thus increasing the odds of the PC meeting the Copper Coronet NPCs first. Anomen is arrogant, Nalia is naive and Korgan is bloodthirsty, so from there you can even argue that you simply arranged to meet Nalia at her hold while steering clear of both warriors - that's when you went somewhere else and met your 6th.
If you go by the new 5th edition D&D canon it is implied that every NPC traveled with the PC Bhaalspawn at some point. The implied setup is a lot like Dragon Age: Origins group where while the PC has to form a smaller party to do quests with, the PC's actual inner circle is much larger. Minsc and Viconia are confirmed to have traveled with the PC.
My best guess at an organic canon party for BG2 would be: Jaheira, Minsc, Yoshimo (then Imoen), Aerie and Sarevok.
This party still covers all bases (even better than BG1's canon party, I think) and leaves the 6th slot empty for the entirety of SoA (since you will only recruit Sarevok then ToB starts), which gives you the chance to recruit other NPCs temporarily while you do their quests.
If you want to take things a bit further, I'd say the canon romance is Aerie (and not Jaheira, who's supposed to be a mother figure of sorts) and that you're supposed to recruit Haer'Dalis for a while (a Bard, rounding up your party). I say this because throughout the campaign, there will be a love triangle between you both and Aerie.
If you play your cards right and don't be a dick to Aerie, eventually Haer'Dalis is going to challenge you to a duel for her heart, which prompts her to reject him for good and makes him leave the party forever, making up room for Sarevok.
I think that rounds everything up nice, doesn't it?
The idea of Aerie as canon is strongly supported by the fact that Minsc bonds with her while grieving the loss of Dynaheir, and that she can wind up marrying and having a child with the main character. The idea that a romance with Jaheira is not canon is supported by the fact that you have to jump through so many easy-to-miss hoops to get there, and that her early "romance dialogues" are more like old friends grieving together over the loss of Khalid. Those dialogues won't progress to physical romance unless the player actively pursues it.
There is a dialogue sequence very early on with Aerie where the player will have to either express romantic interest in Jaheira or declare himself for Aerie. For the players who don't like the idea of a friendship between an older woman and a younger man growing into a romantic relationship over the shared loss of a husband/dear friend, it can be shut down very early in SoA without hurting Jaheira or making her permanently angry.
Minsc also bonds with Nalia, and there's a 50-50 chance that the Bhaalspawn is female. Abdel Adrian is no longer canon, and the specifics of the Bhaalspawn are intentionally left vague by WotC.Edit: faulty memory
I don't think I'll pursue any romance options. The main character is female so I'd need to mod it. Would also be hugely unrealistic with Aerie getting pregnant. :-) Even more so than the fact that she takes part in all the traveling and heavy combat while supposedly pregnant! And then what, you literally enter hell with the baby on your back? :-P The whole thing always seemed silly to me.
I'd actually like to pursue the Jaheira romance some time as I hear it's actually well written, unlike the stereotypical "fragile traumatized woman saved by white knight" and "devilish overly lustful woman" options offered by Aerie and Viconia. Might even work with a female character perhaps; dunno what sort of dialogue goes into it. I'll leave it for another time though as I don't want to bother with mods.
From what I read on the Wiki, Haer'Dalis and Aerie don't end up being too close to each other, so I suppose it won't be a problem if I kick Haer'Dalis eventually... Guess I'll just see that I keep him long enough to see their relationship to the end. I'm being told it's interesting to watch.
One more question: I know Sarevok can be turned to good, but will it be a problem if it takes too long and he starts getting bothered by high rep?
That and I really can't stomach Anomen being canon. Ugh. In ToB, NPCs will never leave due to reputation. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, certain dialogues that trigger alignment changes are dependent on a high reputation.
Oh good, I'm canon then. I'm a super completionist.
'It sounds like a literary masterpiece to me!'
Re: novelizations. I liked the first one (To be fair, he didn't actually sleep with Jaheira until after Khalid bit the dust), thought the second one seemed like it was written on an acid trip. Despised the third, because, well, pretty much everything on http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/BaldursGate. Particularly the 'Everybody's Dead, Dave' trope.
'From what I read on the Wiki, Haer'Dalis and Aerie don't end up being too close to each other'
A guy who basically worships the uncaring end of everything, and a chick who is a bleeding heart. The writing is kind of on the wall there. Breakup is in Chapter 6.
In BG1, you meet up with her and she says she's got her thing that she's investigating, and you're welcome to tag along, but if you don't she just bails on you. She offers advice but otherwise lets you forge your own path and is content to follow along. In BG2, even if you don't romance her, she relies heavily on your advice and guidance. I'd say if she's anything, it's sisterly and not motherly.
Based on a timeline of events, she's really not much older than Charname. Her bio says she was born during the Tethyrian civil war, which google tells me began in 1347 DR. Baldur's Gate's journal starts in 1369, and Charname is said to be 20 years old, meaning he was born in 1349. The two of you are basically the same age.
Gorion says that Jahiera and Khalid are "old friends", which should be impossible since he's been stuck in Candlekeep with you for too long to have gone adventuring with Jahiera. I always mentally reconcile it as Gorion saying that the Harpers are old friends of his, and Jahiera/Khalid are Harpers, making them old friends, (even if these two particular Harpers are actually really more recent acquaintances).
Besides, if Jahiera and Khalid really were old adventuring buddies of Gorion's, odds are good they'd start out better than level 1.
Given all of this, I think the Jahiera/Charname relationship makes a lot more sense.
If you shift BG's timeline to 1378, 20 years after the Time of Troubles, that would make Jaheira about 34. I don't think the issue lies with the age difference (which is not even that big), though - I believe the way the relationship between Charname, Jaheira and Khalid is established in BG1 is pretty unambiguous.
For example: Gorion says about Khalid and Jaheira, "they have long been my friends and you can trust them." Also, Khalid addresses you as "child" on the very first line he says to you.
As for the fact that they're Level 1, I think it should be chalked up to game balance. It wouldn't be much of a challenge if the plot gave you two Level 6-10 companions right off the bat. It's not supposed to make much sense story-wise, just as it doesn't make sense that Charname and friends go from wet-behind-the-ears Level 1 to more-powerful-than-Elminster in the span of just a few months.
That pretty much explains the diverse age of all Bhaalspawn.
Even if we go with the "BG borked the timeline and also Abazigal is a magical dragon who fully matured in 10 years and gave birth to another magical dragon who also fully matured in 10 years" hypothesis, that still only makes Jahiera 34, which in Half-Elf years is basically the same as 20 in human years, anyway.
Regarding the "they have long been my friends" line: again, I always interpret this as "they are members of the Harpers, my long-time friends". Or perhaps you could interpret it as "All Harpers are my friends, these guys have been Harpers for years, so they've been my friends for years". Whether she's 22 or 34, there's no way Gorion actually had a chance to adventure with Jahiera; he's been stuck in Candlekeep since she was a kid.
Khalid does indeed call you "child", but as far as I know, we don't really have any good hints towards Khalid's age, and I always imagined him much older than Jahiera. Given her youth and inexperience, I think his age and stability would go a long way towards explaining what brought them together, given their obvious dissimilarities personality-wise. Then when Khalid dies she has that pillar of stability kicked out from underneath her.
In fact, realizing Jahiera is 22 or 34 makes things make a lot more sense, in my opinion. Half-elves at that age are physically mature, but emotionally it's basically still adolescence. Jahiera has had a really rough childhood, (in her biography, it says she "glares" at you when she tells you about it). She was born to nobles who were murdered by an angry mob of peasants when she was a baby or a toddler, and she was raised in a forest. It makes sense that she'd have to be more self-sufficient and basically "grow up" faster as a result.
Khalid was a stabilizing influence on her life and that's why she got married ridiculously young. In Human terms, it's like she got married at 14 and widowed at 16. And thinking about how quickly a 16-year-old gets over relationships helps explain why Jahiera was able to move on when she did. It also explains why she's constantly seeking your advice and always following your counsel, and also why she's so racked with uncertainty during the Harpers plot.
It also makes the last Elminster interaction of her arc pretty interesting, too. He asks her if she did the right thing, and she's either certain that she did, (in which case she gets her Harper pin), or else she's not, in which case her punishment is to be left alone with her doubts. Which seems like a pretty brutal punishment for someone who is essentially still in adolescence or early-adulthood. That's one hell of a "learning experience".
Regarding Jaheira, is she really is on her twenties, I'd say it creates inconsistencies with her background. It's a bit of a stretch assume that in just two decades she was able to:
- Train to become an initiate Druid
- Join and establish herself within the Harpers
- Meet, get into a relationship and marry Khalid
- Make allies, enemies and connections throughout both the Sword Coast and Amn
- Become a trusted friend of Gorion (while he was busy watching over Charname in Candlekeep)
This would all make much more sense if she was on her late thirties/early fourties or so. But then again, in these games you go from chump to demigod in the span of a few months, so...
But even if the age difference was there, I never said that's what makes a relationship between Jaheira and Charname problematic. IMHO what makes it a bad decision on the writers' part is the way they initially establish the relationship between Charname, Jaheira and Khalid. They're supposed to be kinda like foster mentors, who know more, have seen more than you and are suppose to watch over you in the absence of their old friend Gorion.
Everything else @SomeSort has pointed out is speculation, based on what *could* be the case according to his ideas but without any basis on the game itself. I'm trying to stick to the evidence. If I were to speculate, I'd say whoever wrote Jaheira's romance also thought it to be weird, considering the sexual overtone is heavily downplayed, at least in comparison to the other romances.
BG1 didn't really flesh out its characters like BG2 did. It's true that Gorion's words indicate that Jaz/Khalid are supposed to be new guardians for you. And Jahiera's first interaction with you reinforces that this was Gorion's wish. And it just as clearly reinforces that she doesn't care, in my opinion.
"Gorion often said that he worried for your safety, even at the expense of his own. He also wished that Khalid and I would become your guardians, if he should ever meet an untimely end. However, you are much older now, and the choice of your companions should be your own."
There's a very meaningful "however" in there, which centers a juxtaposition between Gorion's wish, ("guardians"), and her offer, ("companions"). She makes clear that while Gorion viewed you as a child, she views you as an adult. If you reject her offer, she says it's your decision and then wishes you luck.
And again, if you dither around instead of going to Nashkel, she'll flat-out abandon you on the side of the road, which is pretty crappy foster-mentoring if you ask me. Whether we judge her by her words or by her actions, it's clear that her ideas are a little bit different than Gorion's.
(As an aside: I tried getting her to bail on me to see her "leaving" dialogue again, but after 50 days of sleeping in the Friendly Arm Inn and 50 days of traveling back and forth between Peldvale and High Hedge, she still hasn't left. I'm assuming Beamdog removed this at some point.)
Even her joking "yes, oh omnipresent authority figure" line suggests that you're the boss and she's just along for the ride, (or, given your divine heritage, perhaps "caught up in the wake" is more appropriate). (And yes, I know that this line was probably a joke designed to break the 4th wall and refer to the player, much like Edwin's "I do not understand this 'mouse magic' that makes me do your bidding" line. But again, characterization was sparse in BG1, and such is the thin gruel that we have to subsist on.)
I also think whoever wrote Jahiera's romance did a phenomenal job. It was by far the most realistic of the three. And the biggest hang-up, by far, was her recent widowhood, not any sort of (nonexistent) maternal feelings. Regardless of what Gorion may, (or may not), have originally intended.
As another aside: I've often wished that Baldur's Gate gave you level 2 versions of Jahiera and Khalid to start. One extra level wouldn't be much, but it would be a lot more consistent with their back-story. It would be enough so that especially early on in the game they felt more like "protectors", experienced adventurers who could actually take a hit or two.
I do think the decision to make them level 1 was probably more about balance than characterization. But I'd point out that Ajantis and Viconia can both be recruited one zone away from the FAI, and they both start at level 2. (Though with Viconia, you have to kill a Flaming Fist enforcer first.) And Kivan is even closer still to the start of the game and also starts at level 2. (Plus he's an archer, the most balance-breaking specialization in vanilla BG.)
Also, who is the most likely person to recruit Jaz/Khalid? Probably a brand new player, since the game pushes you so hard in that direction. Meanwhile, the most likely person to skip them is an experienced vet who already knows what party he or she wants. So balance-wise, slightly beefing up Jaz/Khalid would go a long way towards making the early-game a little bit less punishing for new players.
But then, I'm not a game designer.
Charname
Jaheria
Minsc
Aerie
Yoshimo/Imoen
Here's how we break that down...
Charname + Jaheria
It was Jaheria + Khalid, but we all know what happens. As much as I dislike the romance, it's clearly the one they intended you to take.
Minsc+Aerie
Again, before it was Minsc and Dynaheir, but we know that story too. Minsc will eventually team up with Aerie, thus healing that wound.
Yoshimo/Imoen
Again, it's clear Yoshi is mean to come along. He the Morte to this Planescape, he knows the town and has lots of advice. The swap at Spellhold is natural, for spoiler reasons.
I honestly don't know who to put in the last spot, and maybe that's intentional, so you can rotate through the cast of characters. I'm really partial to Mazzy, since her voice actor is phenomenal (Fall-From-Grace!) and she's one tough cookie.
If you play the pre-made Tales of the Sword Coast expansion party in the original Baldur's Gate, you begin with these characters--
Human Fighter Protagonist
Imoen
Jaheira
Minsc
Edwin
Viconia
This was at a time prior to the creation of BG2, when Jaheira and Minsc were both intended to join your party with their respective adventuring partners. Arguably then you could believe that the creators were betraying their own initial creative intention in order to bring this party together. It's also worth noting that this is a delightfully balanced party.
When BG2 does begin, however, you will notice that these are the only party members from the original game that return to the sequel as party members. TotSC was acknowledging this, which is obvious in hindsight. All of the these NPCs acknowledge a history together; Viconia & Edwin both acknowledge Imoen for who she is if you explain that your intention is to rescue her when they join the party; Jaheira confesses that she is not opposed to travelling with Viconia, and recognises her immediately when you encounter her in the Government district. Edwin and Minsc acknowledge each other as well.
The main issue with this party is, of course, that Edwin and Minsc will not tolerate being in a party without eventually getting violent. In my opinion, this shatters all preconceived notions about a 'canon' party for BG2. By destroying the possibility of this party, I just don't believe there is any preference that the developers had for an ideal party. One could go a step further and say that whoever dies of Edwin and Minsc when/if they come to blows is fit to be replaced by Sarevok in Throne of Bhaal, much as Yoshimo replaces Imoen and Imoen goes on to replace him again throughout the narrative.
In conclusion: there really isn't a canon party for BG2. I believe that at some point in the original development process there was a very clear intention for one, but that was ultimately scrapped in order to play up the Edwin-Minsc conflict. I really don't see how one could argue that Aerie was intended to be part of a canon party over Viconia, though. Her constant reoccurrence among the replies here that pitch canon party concepts doesn't make any sense to me.
Part of it, too, I think is that the Charname/Jahiera/Minsc/Imoen quartet is a bit light on arcane casting, especially before Spellhold. The other arcane spellcaster options would be Nalia and Jan, who overlap too much with Imoen, and Edwin, who fights with Minsc. And maybe Haer'Dalis, but he's pretty hidden and his quest is one of the toughest of chapters 2 and 3. If you rule out Edwin because of the conflict, I don't think there's a more logical replacement than Aerie.
I think the 6th character is super-tricky, but while there's no "canon" party beyond Imoen/Jahiera/Minsc, I think Aerie makes sense as the most canonesque.