Is "ballancing"/nerfing PnP spells/Prestige classes good?? Nwn:EE should be more PnP?
SorcererV1ct0r
Member Posts: 2,176
Don't get me wrong. Nwn is the best rpg of my life but as anything have problems. The major problem that i have with nwn is that they tried to ballance some thing and ended with a more unbalanced game. Any example? An mage focused in Conjuration in PnP can deal with magic immunity and high magic resistance simple by casting Incendiary Cloud or any other spell that won't allow SR in PnP, in game by no reason this spell allow SR and since his opposed school will be transmutation, he can't the best spells in game like(and the best to deal with high SR enemies) Time Stop, Tenser's transformation, Flesh to Stone(bypass death magic resistance), stoneskin and due the fact that he can only have one summon, a conjurer can't rely on summons.
This makes impossible for a sorc/wiz to fight a high SR monk. Except if the monk make melee attacks in you while he is using Mestil's acid sheath. In nwn servers, one of the most powerful builds is a high SR monk focused on disarming. I have played a lot with Wizard in PnP. One of my character was focused on undead and other was focused on constructs. But both are simple nonviable to nwn Also, some spells like Teleport should be added too. Will be amazing to create an high level pale master trying to mimic "Ainz Ooal Gown"(i will search a lichdom mod too)
Some prestige classes become useless too. An example? Pale master. Since you can have only one undead and won't get more CL(caster level), an entire build become useless. No way that a Wizard 10/Pale Master 10 will be able to beat a Wizard 20. I have almost 200 hours of nwn1 on gog and never had seen any "pale master" in any server.
This makes impossible for a sorc/wiz to fight a high SR monk. Except if the monk make melee attacks in you while he is using Mestil's acid sheath. In nwn servers, one of the most powerful builds is a high SR monk focused on disarming. I have played a lot with Wizard in PnP. One of my character was focused on undead and other was focused on constructs. But both are simple nonviable to nwn Also, some spells like Teleport should be added too. Will be amazing to create an high level pale master trying to mimic "Ainz Ooal Gown"(i will search a lichdom mod too)
Some prestige classes become useless too. An example? Pale master. Since you can have only one undead and won't get more CL(caster level), an entire build become useless. No way that a Wizard 10/Pale Master 10 will be able to beat a Wizard 20. I have almost 200 hours of nwn1 on gog and never had seen any "pale master" in any server.
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I understand your point. I agree completely. But as a modder and founder of community patch I know where is this going to lead. I tried to discuss about it and tried to implement it in my community patch. At the end I had to make it completely optional and it still caused great deal of peoples to hate the project entirely just because I made possible something they believe is wrong.
Anyway so the thing here is that NWN was based on DnD 3.0. When NWN was developed there weren't 3.5 rules yet. In 3.0 AOE spells can be negated by spell resistance. In 3.5 they aren't. You can argue it is not logical. You can argue that 3.5 is a patch for 3.0 which is unbalanced as hell. There still be big faction of "NWN must be 3.0 based" believers who will oppose these ideas.
And then there is another group of "my server is balanced around PM not giving caster level so if you give PM caster level you screw balance on my server"...
2 - That explains a lot. Good points about SR, but summoning still too limited in the game. I know that there are the "unlimited summoning" module, but by default, you should be able to use more than one summon.
3 - I disagree. If your server runs under 3.0, your server is unbalanced. Also, i can't imagine how at the current state, a wiz 10/PM 10 will manages to kill a WIZ 20. In core DnD, the PM if he had time to prepare an army had the upper hand, but if the Wiz prepare spells to fight undead, he had the advantage.
With so many possibilities/classes builds and items available, I’d argue that ‘balancing’ Is an illusion. It’s more about what builds you’d prefer to stack up against others in your play style which is totally ok. In my humble experience, nerfing rules for PW’s is about making play less chaotic. Example, that fighter can’t just run up and dev crit you through your DR after you’ve built that pc up over 6 months and vice Vera’s with IGMS and bigbys or whatever. So In a nutshell I’d prefer to stay true to the rules even though that makes it a scary unbalanced world. Like palemaster is weak in one area, but then arnt they immune to crits? Can’t be dev crited. So give and take. PW’s it seems to me nerf the rules for less chaos/griefing and to also ow things down as the vanilla rules can make for fast progression and a scary world. Anyhow that’s my humble misinformed take on it all which I feel quite strongly about but I can understand totally the nerfing argument too.
What they mean is usually "fix the game" but without much basis for their demands, or a wish to nerf something based on their perception of relative power. It's also interesting to note that many players obsess over fairness or their perception of fairness but balance is not equivalent to fair nor does it guarantee a fair game. It also has no relationship with reality or simulation, the world is not a balanced place, so a balanced game will tend to be unrealistic. As for fun, balance is not necessary for fun and in some cases it is more fun without tuning mechanics. In terms of engaging play chess is considered one of the most intellectual games and it is not balanced largely due to turn order. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess
Let's move to the question of what makes D&D 3.0/3.5 broken in the eyes of others instead. Is it the big damage that spell casters can wreck? Actually this is usually not even a consideration. Most theory crafters (the folks that argue about this all day) agree that playing a blaster is playing a sub-par spell caster, the true strength lies in rule manipulation of ambiguously worded spells and in positional advantages. A spell caster can eventually wield offensive magic thousands of feet away from their target up in the air. They can create and then repeatedly drop giant blocks of metal from maximum falling distance on top of a target. How about warping the fabric of the planes around them to induce qualities such as vacuum (can't breath), pressure and other effects. When they say spell casters are game breaking they literally mean that they think they can do things that the game did not intend, hence break by exploiting ambiguity in spell descriptions, not by having high damage rolls.
NWN has some spells that are not present in official material and which follow a different design template to official spells. The best known example is IGMS which is so powerful that official spells of the blasting variety just can't compete even if they weren't friendly fire or didn't have saves. A cheap way to invalidate mind spells is to cast protection from evil/good which incorrectly gives mind spell immunity instead of just charms and compulsions. There are more that are either changed or original to NWN such as spell mantle, spell breach, true strike, shadow shield, premonition, bigby's forceful hand, greater restoration, storm of vengeance, ice storm, time stop, implosion, off the top of my head. D&D 3.5 also changed how some things work such as haste, heal, harm, blade barrier, keen, and some others. Several bonuses are also same typed so should not stack such as same typed attack bonuses and same typed save bonuses.
It has a lot more to do with keeping consistency of a game system than a question of balance, as some NWN spells were designed or altered for a video game and some are word for word from a table top game. They're inconsistent which means not only does it affect how the game is played but also what spell choices are made. Many mods and servers have their own alterations of various spells, for example adding a save to IGMS or reducing the size of the damage dice.
I don't consider spell casters as game breakers in NWN at all because it requires a DM to actively participate on your behalf to allow you to do things that were not scripted. How powerful a wizard is vs how powerful a fighter is largely depends on three things: spell script edits, available magic items, monster defenses.
tl;dr changing NWN to fit closer to pnp is not a nerf or balance change, it's a realignment of the design to make the system more consistent
In a PNP game you have a group trying to work it’s way through appropriate level modules. And the rules are designed around that.
I wouldn’t say this and character vs character balance are mutually exclusive but they probably complicate each other in terms of making interesting encounters.
Poongko was a newcomer to the US Tournament scene and is playing the single worst ranked character in the game. The characters stats and ranking were so bad he literally had his own garbage tier called "Seth tier."
Daigo is one of the greatest players in the history of competitive gaming. He played the same character for decades (Ryu) but Yun was so overwhelmingly overpowered that it would have been utterly foolish for Daigo to play anything else.
Poongko was playing a character and style he loved.
Daigo was playing because of math.
Daigo should have absolutely wiped the floor with Poongko but regardless of what the numbers say on paper... Poongkko advanced the meta.
Same thing for Neverwinter Nights.
Clerics and Wizards are extremely powerful. They are in the top tier. But every character you roll doesn't have to be the most powerful thing in the game in order for them to be effective or fun to play.
Imbalanced is not the same as broken. Imbalanced simply means a more dynamic asymmetric meta.
IE: It's not a bug. It's a perfectly valid design choice.
I never said that wiz/sorc aren't powerful, only that conjuration spells are almost useless in this game and that a monk focused in disarming with high spell resistance is almost invincible since he can counter anyone. Necromancers are pretty popular in PnP and IMHO shoudl be viable in a DnD based game too.
Well then... wouldn't addressing Player vs Environment be a case of balancing encounters and not classes?
Spells work the way they do largely because they're designed for simulation over balance. You don't get a reflex save when you intentionally walk into a cloud of acid, you don't get spell resistance when you're hit by something created as a result of magic but which isn't itself magic.
Keeping with the theme of fighting games this is a good video that summarizes some common discussion topics.
Also, you aren't arguing that nerf is good. Only that in a fighting game, if you are much better than another player, you can defeat him with a worst character. Pale Master still useless. Conjurer Wizard, very weak compared to any specialized wizard. ... Well said
I am not arguing for nerfs. I am saying things being imbalanced is not a bad thing. If everything is perfectly balanced then a game becomes homogeneous. Magic The Gathering, Fighting Games, MMO's, RPG's etc create "Balance" via interesting asynchronous imbalance. As long as something is interesting, fun and still viable to a degree someone can have fun with it and it alters the meta.
I brought up fighting games to make the point that NWN is NOT a fighting game and thus the same need for all classes to be more closely balanced does not exist. D&D is balanced around killing monsters with a group of friends. Not in wholesale slaughtering other players. As such, encounter and item design has a far greater effect on player experience than if the class they chose is super OP or not.
Fighting Games and RTS games are the most sensitive to buffs and nerfs. They are extremely complex games where decisions are made in real time where thousands of behind the scenes calculations dynamically bounce off one another causing an endless series of ripple effects throughout the round. However, the game theory behind balancing a fighting game or an RTS is the same game theory that goes into crafting a good RPG.
Asynchronous balance creates interesting gameplay. Whilst perfect balance is kinda boring. However, broken is still broken and gentle balance corrections are often required. However, The goal is not to make everything in a game perfectly balanced but rather to make it fun and add to the game in a meaningful way.
D&D is not a PvP focused game the act of balancing encounters falls on the DM/Builder. If you are fighting a monster with 50DR with a +1 sword that is either an extremely badly designed encounter or the player has made a series of poor choices leading to them doing something they are severely under leveled and under equipped for. Classes should not be balanced against human stupidity.
And if you are fighting players who massively outstrip you then this is something that either needs to be addressed by itemization or you need to adapt the meta.
NWN is not perfectly balanced.
NWN Does not need to be perfectly balanced.
Perfect balance is boring. Can you play the official campaigns with them?
If yes, then they work. They may be on the bottom of the tier list but they are still viable.
If your complaint is about how they play on your persistent world of choice then that is a matter of balance to be addressed by the creators of said world either through itemization, the creation of enemies/areas that play to those classes strengths or making the choice to active buff those classes.
Other example. Why arcane archer can only imbue fire? There are tons of fire immune/resistant creatures. This killed the class IMHO.
I have tryed a "necromancer" in core nwn. Gived up. In PRC, they are viable, but in core nwn due his nerfs, they aren't. Dread Necromancer in PRC and in core DnD are the same. PRC(Player Resource Consortium's ) can be used in NWN:EE? Or only in "old" nwn? With my "Plague of Undead"(lv 9 spell), i can summon 4 undead at once. That is how a necromancer should be in NWN. Also, Dread Necromancer gets Lich template at lv 20 and his feats are amazing. Dread necro isn't OP on PRC. IMHO are simple like any other specialized caster.
• Undead Graft (Su): At 6th level, a pale master gives in to terrible necrophiliac urges. He cuts off his arm and replaces it with an undead prosthetic, which may be skeletal in form or preserved flesh stitched in place like that of a flesh golem. Regardless of its composition, the graft grants a +4 inherent bonus to the character’s Strength score. Additionally, the undead graft allows him to deliver horrible touch attacks. A pale master can use this ability once per day at 6th level, twice per day at 8th level, and three times per day at 10th level. The character must declare that he is using this ability before making the attack roll; a failed attack roll still expends that use of the ability. Each time he makes a touch attack using this ability, the pale master can select from any of the effects described below for which he meets the prerequisite class level. The save DC for the pale master’s touch attacks is 10 + his pale master class level + his Cha modifier.
• Paralyzing Touch: Any living foe except for an elf that is hit by a pale master’s touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Prerequisite: Class level 6th.
• Weakening Touch: A living foe hit by a pale master’s touch attack takes 1d6 points of Strength damage (no save). A creature reduced to Strength 0 dies. Prerequisite: Class level 7th.
• Degenerative Touch: A living foe hit by a pale master’s touch attack receives one negative level (no save), and must make a Fortitude save 24 hours later to avoid losing the level permanently. Prerequisite: Class level 8th.
• Destructive Touch: A living foe hit by a pale master’s touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. Prerequisite: Class level 9th.
• Deathless Master’s Touch: A living foe of up to one size category larger than a pale master hit by the pale master’s touch attack must succeed on a Fortitude save or die. A slain creature automatically animates 1 round later as a zombie (see page 265 of the Monster Manual) and is under the pale master’s control as if he had animated it. Undead created using this power do not count against a pale master’s HD total for controlling undead. Prerequisite: Class level 10th.
Some Palemaster attributes
Not much good for dungeon grinding agreed, but perhaps that was not the intention of the creators, rather a rich and interesting character, not a set of stats to grind through a calculator to create the most UBER build. Palemaster vs Wiz of same level. I guess wiz would win the fight but the PM wins the actual character richness hands down. Awesomeness vs actual practicality? I guess this is one of the limitations the game makes you do, stat build to win, not enrich the world which brings about this entire argument.
Like some weapons that ‘suk’ and leave you wondering, why? They add to the richness of the world, useless for stat building tanks but great for interesting NPCs and stuff. I guess what I’m trying to point out is that if you play nwn/D&D solely to stat build an avatar to devastate everything, you are guaranteed to be disappointed at some stage.
(The views expressed by the author may not neccesarily reflect the views of anyone else or be correct in any way. )
Well, why not have an "rich and interesting character" that can compete with other casters? Also, a Pale Master with an undead army will be very interesting. Please. Try complete hotu in max difficulty with pale master.
According to dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Pale_Master,_Rebuild_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)#Spellcasting
Will not be good if you can use a "rich and interesting character" and not be a burden or weak to your party? The unique way to have a good experience playing as a necromancer in NWN is if you install PRC and use Dread necro class that follows DnD 3.5e class ( www.athasreborn.com/prc/manual/english/content/base_classes/187.html )
As you can see, you are much more powerful in necromancy, much more resistant, but lose your versatility. In nwn in order to be able to have only one summon(while in pnp you can have an army) and some resistances, you need to sacrifice 10 caster levels, 10 levels of new spells... A Wiz 10/PM 10 have no chance against a Wiz 20. To be honest, even against a Wizard 12/ Wizard 13, he will probably gonna lose, since tier 6 spells are pretty good and a wiz 10 can't use tier 6 spells.
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Edit : If someone wanna knows how is Dread Necro in PRC, here is how many creatures i can control at max level(and yes, used cheats)
As you can see, in order to play as a necromancer, you need to mod the game... Since by some reason the game doesn't let me pick "true necromancer" prestige class, i have picked "cleric"
If you have to ask the question why then the answer is probably "Because NWN is a video game that uses a 15 year old engine and has some severe limitations".
Also, the game needs to play in multiplayer as it does in singleplayer and NWN does not handle large amounts of complex AI very well even with todays hardware.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/17313/monster-summoning-limit
There are tons of RPGs that DnD is only an influence. NWN should be an DND game.
This power isn't the "power that a modder let you have", this is simple the power that any Dread Necromancer can have in D&D, i have posted a link to the rules for 3.5e. Why Necros should be weak in nwn than they are in D&D and all other classes shouldn't? In BG necro clerics are viable, in NWN aren't. In BG Conjuration specialized Wizards are viable. In NWN aren't.
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I have found some boards asking for the thinks that i an asking on this topic
Give caster level to pale masters Improve summoning
I must admit I thought you were talking about something else but on review of what you are actually saying, I find myself agreeing with your last posts cause your pretty much right.
Should NWN rules more accurately emulate D&D pnp rules? I think so yes.
CAN nwn more accurately emulate D&D pnp rules? No, the game will blow up in a puff of confetti unfortunately as has already been pointed out by others. The only thing I could think of doing in the situation of undead army to make it closer is max out spawns to say 5 but also have an ‘army’ counter. So when each of the 5 dies, instant res pawn untill your army of say 100 is expended. I believe this kind of thing is what you mean.
About summons, in the "core" nwn, doesn't matter if you have an low level undead or an dragon( epic spell "Dragon Knight" summons a dragon). You can only have one summon. In PnP if you have more undead that you can control, you lose control over your undeads. In NWN - PRC mod, you unsummon and the "exceeding" monsters. The Plage of Undead spell in DnD and in PRC have a limit by HD(hit dice) of 4x your caster level. I think that limit the monsters controlled by "Hit Dice" is the way so a mid level caster can control one/two strong minions or 10 weak minions. I know that this is hard to be implemented, so if summoning in nwn1 becomes like bg, summons will be at least viable and those who wanna play something more closer to pnp can use mods. I was arguing for full pnp summons, but if summons become like bg i will be happy.
As you can see the undead you're using look nothing like a normal type of undead using pnp rules, they are a custom creation (or uncommon monster hidden in a book) hence it depends on the module creator for providing you with the "bodies" so to speak.
Furthermore level 20 applies the lich template to your character, there's no prc, those that do exist would forbid it to characters that are no longer humanoid or monstrous humanoid as you can't double dip. A template class is a form of progression similar to taking class levels but you do not gain the benefits of actual class levels, as lich is a +4 level adjustment template then you should not be able to gain 10 levels in it. I'm not criticizing the PRC but if we are talking about what pnp provides then this is simply incorrect.
We can't draw any NWN vs table top D&D conclusions from this because it's specific to those mods only.
The essential purpose of spells like plague of undead is to raise an army of undead from surrounding graveyard or battlefield, they would follow the rules for creating zombies and skeletons in a radius of 125ft around you at level 40, and 250ft with enlarge spell metamagic.
There are other ways to create undead too that don't have conversions, and there are necromantic feats which do things like further increase the HD of your undead. It overcomes the main weakness of mindless undead which are unable to advance on account of being mindless and lifeless bodies animated by negative energy magic.
The reason for the limit is do to the amount of resources to the programmers. This is why it isn't more like pen and paper, cause it isn't pen and paper. It is a computer game.
Very limited class selection, no skill checks, Bad AI, no crafting, diablo style skill tree.... Sure, is "a computer game", but since is too different from dnd, nobody liked. There are already tons of games that are far different from pnp. NWN still alive since 2002 and Baldur's Gate still played since 1998.
In all cases of undead animating or controlling spells you have no guarantees that the amount of total HD meets your allowed maximum, nor guarantees that the individual HD of the undead will be high enough to be useful for epic leveling. An accurate closer to pen and paper rules system would be situation dependent on the body material you have available. It's the main difference between undead and summons.
NWN itself limits summons and it is not easy to make them unlimited. Not many builders know how to do that, it was so far presented only in PRC and community patch. And both of these packages aren't well received by the PW builders.
PS : Since you are a very good mod builder, is hard to create vampire hakpak that allows you to take sun damage, make "vampire thralls" and give orders to thralls? Like in pnp? I have tried a vampire mod but the game crashed...