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Monster Summoning Limit

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
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  1. Monster Summoning Limit89 votes
    1. I prefer the original BG summoning limit
      42.70%
    2. I prefer the summoning limit of five
      37.08%
    3. I am undecided
      20.22%

Comments

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    Army of monsters? Nope, too over the top for my taste.
    Only 5 monsters summoned? Kind of shame...
    But how about 10? It's not an army, and it's still more than 5...
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277

    Army of monsters? Nope, too over the top for my taste.
    Only 5 monsters summoned? Kind of shame...
    But how about 10? It's not an army, and it's still more than 5...

    I think 10 would be just right. During the final battle, no matter what you summon Seravok plows through them with ease. With only 5, they're little more than a speed bump for tops, three rounds if you're lucky.

    Ten would help out for a few more rounds to give your team a little more time to rebuff or use that Dispel Magic you haven't had the time to use.
  • bill_zagoudisbill_zagoudis Member Posts: 207
    enemies with no aoe could be overwhelmed,also if one has too many casters in group would be able to summon hordes,so i think a limit of 5 is reasonable
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    edited March 2013
    I think max summon of five should be the rule. Anything more is an exploit.

    The following 2 pictures occurred when Imoen solo Ravager w/ an army of 14+ waves of summons from the wand of summoning. I feel a bit shameful after this battle.

    image
    image
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Summoning your own army is the coolest thing in the world!
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Hmm. I noticed that the wand of monster summoning tries to summon more monsters than the cap allows with each use. It's function has not changed from BG1 which was, of course, to summon a big pile of meat shields. I missed having a ton of weak meat shields. Maybe there should be some sort of point system where weak monsters cost very few points and strong monsters cost more? I don't know...
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    Pantalion said:

    Honestly I would not mind a modified cap, coupled with individuals, rather than the party. Three summons per summoner.

    If you're playing with six mages, then you may as well let them go all out.
    If you have a single mage, you can't just have them spam summons up to the party cap.

    That's the best suggestion I've ever read regarding summoning spells/wands/etc.

    I think the cap was implemented in BG2 because at those levels you get to summon some very powerful creatures - elementals, devas, planetars, and so on. In BG1, having a 5-creature limit has nerfed summoning more than it should, IMHO.
  • GawdzillaGawdzilla Member Posts: 86
    Summoning is awesome. But it's easily abused.

    The limit of 5 hurts only because you're likely to get 5 half-starved dogs which are barely any use. That does, however, keep the wands fun because you hope to get something good..

    Maybe instead summon a hit dice worth of creature. So, 5 dogs equals 2 gnolls equals 1 ghast. Mileage will always vary.
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    I think the spell already works that way, actually.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    The number shouldn't play a role, just the strength of the summoned creatures. 5 war dogs are a joke compared to 5 skeleton warriors, for example, and that's not even high level territory.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Pantalion said:

    Apathy is the only response to polls.

    Honestly I would not mind a modified cap, coupled with individuals, rather than the party. Three summons per summoner.

    If you're playing with six mages, then you may as well let them go all out.
    If you have a single mage, you can't just have them spam summons up to the party cap.

    This is a great idea!

  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    While at times I really hate the summoning limit (Especially when I need dragons to be distracted) I understand the need for a limit because I've abused the unlimited amount of summoning in the original bg before. But I think the limit would be better somewhere between five and ten. Although it got the point in tob where the only things I would summon where deva/planters and greater elementals. Everything else is just basically a waster of a round.
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  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    I hated the summoning limit with a passion in my BGT game as I had a nasty bug that always counted the summon limit was reached and never allowed me to summon anything ever after, no matter what I did. Had to leave the game as it had become unplayable! And weeks of playtime went to trash.

    Then I did a new install and got no summon limit mod, and abused it horribly, mainly in the Ascension final battle:Aerie had conjured up an army or Aerial Servants, who were real tough creatures thanks to a mod, with innate invisiblity and their grasping hold attack, etc. And Jaheira had an escourting greater fire elementals squad. Still the enemies in that final battle made short work of them so I guess it was okay. Heh.
  • MathmickMathmick Member Posts: 326
    5 is fine in my opinion. What really needs to be changed are formations. Make it like IWD where extra monsters have their own places in formation, instead of 6 + 1 extra slot (plus everything else being ordered to walk through various walls. 12-slot formations, please. =D
  • FoggyFoggy Member Posts: 297
    In BG summons are just cannon fodder, but more than 5 is a crowd and can be abused: place an army of monsters between your party and enemies, ready your bows and fire at will. Although the alternative can be limited to kiting when facing say Drizzt or Sarevok. Best solution would be to improve summons AI and cap according to the total Hit dice of monsters not their number. Ex: 3 skeleton warriors, but 8 war dogs.

    For consistency between BGEE and BG2, summon limit is however a good thing. Can't imagine running with an armada of Aerial Servants, Invisible Stalkers, Skeleton warriors, and Fire Elementals who live happily in Cloudkill. There are more elegant ways in BG2 to kill tough monsters than with powerful summons.
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    I am a very strong advocate of having the summoning limit tied to the ability of your casters (a combination of level and intelligence).

    If the summoning limit were tied to intelligence, it would increase the value of a largely useless stat, in an entirely sensible way, and would provide a better balance than the current (arbitrary) cap -which makes a lot of spells (like MS1 etc) useless.

    As an alternative (which might be easier to implement), certain spells should stop contributing to the summon limit after 'x' level. A level 12 wizard has absolutely no reason at all, ever, to choose MS1. That would change if the player could use it without sacrificing a more powerful summoned creature.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300



    A level 12 wizard has absolutely no reason at all, ever, to choose MS1.

    Of course he does! Cannon fodder, keeping balance , saving elemental summons for later, sacrifices to demogorgon...
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    I want to summon and fill the map with my mindless automatons. I can then take my army to overrun the whole of Faerun!

    ALL WILL FALL AND KNEEL TO MY AWESOME POWA!

    ...

    Rain check on that... My Dire Badgers seem to get lost when I travel to the next map...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
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  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Now that the devs have picked up on the joke and implemented werebears (why hasn't this appeared in the Easter Egg thread?), mass summoning is becoming obsolete.

    Anyway, I don't summon much in BG1/BGee, the summoned creatures are mostly too feeble to bother. Animate Dead is good, I use that, and sometimes Call Woodland Beings is useful too - priests are much better summoners than arcane casters! But the various Monster Summonings and Animal Summonings are pretty useless, I find it easier and quicker just to kill the enemy instead of summoning one-hit meatshields. That's in an unmodded game ... perhaps when I get around to installing SCS, then these feeble meatshields will serve some useful purpose?

    So for me, a summoning limit of 2 would probably suffice - I don't think I've yet had more than 2 summoned creatures active at the same time in BGee. The extant limit of 5 is ample!

    Perhaps people need armies of summoned creatures if they have no warriors in their party, but surely that's a rare party. If you've got a warrior, then just kill the enemy!
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268

    Now that the devs have picked up on the joke and implemented werebears

    WUT?!?!?!?! WHERE????
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    I never summon monsters when fighting against sarevok, in fact I don't think I have ever summoned monsters when fighting sarevok weird
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Tresset said:

    WUT?!?!?!?! WHERE????

    ;-)
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    Ideally, each summon should cost "control points", depending on its strength.
    Depending on the level and amount of wizards in the party, you get a specific amount of "control points".
    IE.:
    A single kobold costs 1 point
    An ogre costs 3 points
    A berzerker ogre costs 5 points
    A lesser elemental costs 12 points
    A deva costs 40 points
    A planetar costs 60 points

    A single level 5 wizard grants 10 points
    A level 20 wizard grants 40 points
    Two level 15 wizards grant 40 points
    Two level 20 Wizards grant 60 points

    And so on :D
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    @Bhaaldog said:

    Anduin said:

    Rain check on that... My Dire Badgers seem to get lost when I travel to the next map...

    Badgers? BADGERS? NoOoOoOoooo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI
    I now shout Badger, Badger, Badger, Badger, Badger when summoning... I shout mushroom when Neera's spells go wrong...

    This should be the sound used for the spell incantation...

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    The summoning limit isn't so much about low level summons. But once you get conjure animals, woodland beings and fire elementals (BG2) not to mention skeletal warriors you'll notice that there is a reason it's there. 5 Skeletal warriors can clear out a whole nest of beholders or mind flayers on their own.

    I'm alright with keeping the unlimited summons in BG1. But then they have to change it again for BGEE 2 if they end up making that game. And then it'll just be confusing for people. So keep the 5 summon limit so once BGEE 2 gets here it's a familiar rule.

    1 Planetar
    1 Elemental prince.
    4 polar bears
    5 skeletal warriors
    3 Fire elementals

    Send in the Skeletal warriors first to soak up the spells with their magic immunities. And then send in the rest. Nothing except a death spell would stop this army. Now put haste on them, and chant / bless...
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268

    Tresset said:

    WUT?!?!?!?! WHERE????

    ;-)
    @Gallowglass Oh so that's how its going to be is it?
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