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? -> Cleric

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Comments

  • NikomakkosNikomakkos Member Posts: 44
    I actually also asnwered my question in a different way. I mean the question why dual to Cleric at all instead of going all out mage. Because you probably want access to the Cleric spells in your party and the whole idea of this thread is to bring more utility to the Cleric that you are going to bring along anyway(although what you are talking about, Pantalion, is a bit more than that: creating some sort of superclass).

    As far as I can see there are three ways to do this:

    1. Make him a strong tank / front line warrior. Obvious choice for that is Berserker or Ranger to Cleric.

    2. Make him double as a thief, for mandatory thief skills (either by dualling or multying).

    3. Give him more versatility and power as a spell caster.

    For the 3rd choice Enchanter dual might be best, although Conjurer, Invoker and Necromancer would all benefit the priest spells as well. I don't have enough experience playing the game to really tell.

    I believe you, Pantalion, that what you propose is maximizing the eventual power of the toon. It's just a question of whether people are up for the "long haul" dual. That's gonna be different from person to person.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    @Abi_Dalzim

    I agree with pretty much everything you've said except about HLAs (and squishiness, at least once you recover your dual the Mage -> Cleric is a far sturdier tank). Thief HLAs are by far the strongest in the game, Mage HLAs are mostly pretty meh, but they hardly need them because they're the strongest class by a country mile long before they get level 9 spells.

    The cleric "suffers" from getting their level 7 spells at 1.35e6 Exp, so there's not the same issue with spell access as there is with a Mage (which get their level 9 spells at 6e6 Exp if you multiclass), so any two class multi will actually get Implosion sooner than the pure cleric does.

    But as GreenWarlock says above, the goal is a dual into Cleric. That you lose more from not continuing as a Mage (or, very debatably, Fighter) is irrelevant, all that matters is what the dual adds to the cleric while remaining as cleric-y as possible.

    On that metric I consider Mage > Ranger (unfixed) > Fighter > Ranger (fixed) > Thief in terms of dual options for the cleric, with the Thief's position depending on how badly you need the utility skills it offers (since Clerics already get Find Traps). The Mage dual gets Knock, Polymorph Self (for "disarming" traps, APR, tanking Battle Horrors, w/e), and the holy trinity of survival Mirror Image/Stoneskin/Spell Immunity for keeping them alive.

    RAM021
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Well, personally, I think Summon Planetar is the best spell in the game, so that probably biases me towards mage HLA's in general. Still, I digress.

    PantalionProont
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    I believe you, Pantalion, that what you propose is maximizing the eventual power of the toon. It's just a question of whether people are up for the "long haul" dual. That's gonna be different from person to person.

    Well as I've said before, I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should be playing, just what's mechanically the best you can shoot for within your preferred goal, which I'm assuming is Dual -> Cleric 39.

    You'll still get benefits if you drop out early (wands alone are game changing), just know what you're missing out on and why you're missing out on it, then decide what's worthwhile to you.

    You can also definitely get some solid benefits out of the other specialists, but the Enchanter having no spells above 5 makes it a good choice for dualling and the school that benefits most from saving throw boosts in general.

    Well, personally, I think Summon Planetar is the best spell in the game, so that probably biases me towards mage HLA's in general. Still, I digress.

    Oh definitely the best summon. That and Improved Alacrity would be why I said "mostly" meh.

    RAM021
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Pantalion said:


    Oh definitely the best summon. That and Improved Alacrity would be why I said "mostly" meh.

    In addition to those, I think Dragon's Breath is underrated. The big thing is that it ignores spell resistance, and unlike Sunfire, still does in EE. So, most likely with a sorcerer, you can use that to devastate clay/stone golems, drow, and the like, and unlike Firestorm, it's party friendly and casts really fast.

    RAM021tbone1Proont
  • NikomakkosNikomakkos Member Posts: 44
    Pantalion said:

    ... but the Enchanter having no spells above 5 makes it a good choice for dualling...

    Well, that could be an argument to choose Enchanter if you are going to dual a mage at some point, but not really an argument for or against choosing Enchanter if you are going to dual to a Cleric from something. But I do understand the pull it has nonetheless, it being so perfect.

  • NikomakkosNikomakkos Member Posts: 44
    The more I think about it the fewer downsides I see to dualling at 9 or 10. Before you dual you are a perfectly fine Enchanter. Meanwhile you can bring an NPC Cleric along if you feel you must have one. After you dual you'll gain a lot of Cleric levels really fast which will make you a perfectly fine ordinary Cleric while you work towards regaining your Mage abilities. Switch out your former party Cleric for something else, let your team mates carry you while you catch up to them (which won't take very long).

    RAM021Pantalion
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,336

    Pantalion said:

    ... but the Enchanter having no spells above 5 makes it a good choice for dualling...

    Well, that could be an argument to choose Enchanter if you are going to dual a mage at some point, but not really an argument for or against choosing Enchanter if you are going to dual to a Cleric from something.
    I think the point is, in a party context, you'd rather have [Enchanter->cleric + Conjurer] than [Conjurer->cleric + Enchanter].

    tbone1NikomakkosProont
  • NikomakkosNikomakkos Member Posts: 44
    One question. If you dual at level 10, is your caster level for arcane spells arrested at level 10 or will it continue to grow with each Cleric level after you regain your Mage abilities?

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    One question. If you dual at level 10, is your caster level for arcane spells arrested at level 10 or will it continue to grow with each Cleric level after you regain your Mage abilities?

    Stuck at 10. For Enchanters, the only effect is duration.

    NikomakkosProont
  • NikomakkosNikomakkos Member Posts: 44
    Pantalion said:

    One question. If you dual at level 10, is your caster level for arcane spells arrested at level 10 or will it continue to grow with each Cleric level after you regain your Mage abilities?

    Stuck at 10. For Enchanters, the only effect is duration.
    That's an argument for going higher then, if not dualling at level 2. If you're utilizing arcane spells like Mirror Image or Haste it's nice to have it last some.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Worth noting that Tenser's will eventually start increasing your THAC0, rather than improving it, since THAC0 only uses "best of" for calculations.

    Also worth noting that Enchanters can use wands of fire and cloudkill like any other mage for enough boom to handle all of BG1.

    ArctodusNikomakkos
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Pantalion said:

    Worth noting that Tenser's will eventually start increasing your THAC0, rather than improving it, since THAC0 only uses "best of" for calculations.

    Also worth noting that Enchanters can use wands of fire and cloudkill like any other mage for enough boom to handle all of BG1.

    Isnt the bonus capped to the mage level? So if you dual at level 10, and is a cleric at level 11, the THACO bonus will be 4, and then drop to 2 and eventually zero, as you keep gaining cleric levels.

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    DrakeICN said:

    Isnt the bonus capped to the mage level? So if you dual at level 10, and is a cleric at level 11, the THACO bonus will be 4, and then drop to 2 and eventually zero, as you keep gaining cleric levels.

    All saving throws and THAC0 choose the best score available to your character, never add. So a level 10 Fighter (THAC0 11) duals into cleric then they will have THAC0 11 until Cleric level 16, at which point the Cleric class gets 10 THAC0 and the 11 no longer applies.

    Tenser's works in much the same way, except I believe that your Tenser's THAC0 always overrides. So if you're a level 9 mage -> Fighter 39 dual and you cast Tenser's then your THAC0 will become 12 until the spells duration ends.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,336
    Pantalion said:

    Tenser's works in much the same way, except I believe that your Tenser's THAC0 always overrides. So if you're a level 9 mage -> Fighter 39 dual and you cast Tenser's then your THAC0 will become 12 until the spells duration ends.

    2.0+ now contains the capability to prevent the spell (and others) from ever making your thac0 worse... might be worth a request on Redmine to implement it. (It would only involve a single 324 effect added to each header.)

    PantalionProontGreenWarlock
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,896
    Pantalion said:

    Mage HLAs are mostly pretty meh

    improved alacrity is not so meh imho, used in combination with equipment that make casting faster is probably the strongest hla of the game.

    for very early duals into cleric fighter is an easy one, at a minimum xp price you can reach GM, so increased thac0, dmg and +1 apr, but it must be a fighter that can use slings.
    also mage is good, access to mage only items like SoTM (dispell on hit and invisibility) or RoV, wands, scrolls (you find much more of them than the number your mages need to learn the spells) and few low level mage spells each day. again with a really fast dual time and playing your "enhanced" cleric for almost all the saga. the spell that gives str is long lasting and really useful before you get str enhancing items.
    also dualing from an early thief gives advantages, you can put all the thief skills in some ability your party thief don't focuses in, maybe pickpocketing. and you have a little backstabbing multiplier, to use with staff and sanctuary+RM to open a fight with some more damage.

    only the early dual from fighter gives a real advantage, the other 2 give really marginal ones.
    a pure class cleric can fight quite well, with 3 spells can easily go with 25 str, fighter like thac0 (from holy power) and maxed dmg roll (from righteous magic), he only lacks APR. even dualing at lev 2 or 3 he will reach GM, with its +1APR and dmg and thac0 benefits, he can go mlee while DW FoA and an other weapon with 3 APR (6 under IH) and hit hard as a fighter, doing more damage/attack but with some attacks less, as some other party member uses Crom.
    dualing from lev 3 (4k xp) he will be at the same level of a pure class for almost all the saga and in the end will have enough pips to be GM in a ranged, a mlee, and have others to dw like a pro and some situational backup weapons.
    i know that dualing later or going multi has advantages, but it has also costs, F(3)->C is the way to go. at least with the OP premises.



    Seeing as the Cleric kits are kind of meh compared to many other kits, I often find myself thinking of ways to improve the Cleric class by picking another class at first and then dualling early to a Cleric, possibly giving him way more interesting benefits than the kits give.

    pure fighter and not berseker because the cleric is also a caster (mainly a caster) not only a physical camage dealer, so a sling that hits HARD 2 times/round is more useful than the rage.
    the cleric can have all the protections rage gives, only imprisonment is a problem, but very few enemies use it and imo GM in sling is much better as there are other ways to beat those few demiliches.


    Skatan
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,021

    Pantalion said:

    Tenser's works in much the same way, except I believe that your Tenser's THAC0 always overrides. So if you're a level 9 mage -> Fighter 39 dual and you cast Tenser's then your THAC0 will become 12 until the spells duration ends.

    2.0+ now contains the capability to prevent the spell (and others) from ever making your thac0 worse... might be worth a request on Redmine to implement it. (It would only involve a single 324 effect added to each header.)
    @subtledoctor Can you formulate the request here and I'll log it in.

    Title:
    Body:

    :)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,336

    Pantalion said:

    Tenser's works in much the same way, except I believe that your Tenser's THAC0 always overrides. So if you're a level 9 mage -> Fighter 39 dual and you cast Tenser's then your THAC0 will become 12 until the spells duration ends.

    2.0+ now contains the capability to prevent the spell (and others) from ever making your thac0 worse... might be worth a request on Redmine to implement it. (It would only involve a single 324 effect added to each header.)
    @subtledoctor Can you formulate the request here and I'll log it in.

    Title:
    Body:

    :)
    Sorry, just got around to thinking about this.

    Title: Tenser's Transformation should not make the caster's thac0 worse.

    Body: Tenser's can make your thac0 worse if your mage caster level is low and your 2nd class has lots of levels and/or good thac0. See here:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/947482/#Comment_947482

    The spell is mid/high level and should really only augment your abilities, not penalize them.

    Steps to improve it: 2 possibilities.

    1) Move the "set thac0" effect to the very last effect in each header. Immediately before it, as the penultimate effect, add an opcode 324 effect checking for (thac0 < x), where x is the same value as the "set thac0" effect, and the "resource" refers to the Tenser's Transformation spell.

    That may or may not work. The likely more reliable method:

    2) Remove the "set thac0" effects from all headers, and put them in a subspell. Add a 326 effect in their place, checking for (thac0 > x) and the resource set to the subspell.

    JuliusBorisovGrond0gorgonzola
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,021
  • AstafasAstafas Member Posts: 421
    Specialised Mage (2)/Cleric. You will play more or less the whole saga with the same type of character. Wands, wands, wands. Staff of the Magi awaits in BG2.

    (I currently play an Abjurer(2)/Fighter: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/945029/#Comment_945029)

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,702
    I like to play as a Cleric (3)/Wizard just to get access to Doom and Chant.

  • AstafasAstafas Member Posts: 421

    @Astafas Why Abjurer?

    Pure roleplaying reasons. He only has a few first level spells (three, to be exact, if no Ring of Wiz). And I always memorize Protection from Evil and Protection from Petrification as two of them (often Friends as the third, for better prices in shops). They need no scaling to be efficient and can be cast well before battle (removing his armor).

    Arctodustbone1
  • ThelsThels Member Posts: 1,332
    People often look at what a build will be like at the very end of the game, and optimize the power level at that very moment of the game, even if that means that you'll be suboptimal for a large duration of the game.

    For example, if you want to Dualclass into a Cleric, but you want to pick up like 10 levels in another class, then for the entire BG1, you are not a Cleric at all, but that class that you're dualclassing from.

    What I personally find to be a good idea is to make sure you can unlock your original class before the end of BG1, which gives you 161k XP to work with. Capping XP in BG1 is relatively easy, so you shouldn't be 'stuck' in a suboptimal build for the rest of one of the games.

    That would require you to Dualclass no later than the following levels:

    Cleric:
    - Stay single class to reach Cleric 8.
    - Dual at level 4 to reach Ranger 8.
    - Dual at level 5 to reach Mage 9.
    - Dual at level 6 to reach Fighter 8, Ranger 7 or Thief 9.
    - Dual at level 7 to reach Mage 8 or Thief 8.

    Druid:
    - Stay single class to reach Druid 10.
    - Dual at level 7 to reach Fighter 8.

    Fighter:
    - Stay single class to reach Fighter 8.
    - Dual at level 5 to reach Mage 9.
    - Dual at level 6 to reach Cleric 8, Druid 10 or Thief 9.
    - Dual at level 7 to reach Druid 9, Mage 8 or Thief 8.

    Ranger:
    - Stay single class to reach Ranger 8.
    - Dual at level 6 to reach Cleric 8.

    Mage:
    - Stay single class to reach Mage 9.
    - Dual at level 5 to reach Fighter 8.
    - Dual at level 6 to reach Cleric 8, Fighter 7 or Thief 9.
    - Dual at level 7 to reach Thief 8.

    Thief:
    - Stay single class to reach Thief 10.
    - Dual at level 6 to reach Fighter 8 or Mage 9.
    - Dual at level 7 to reach Cleric 8 or Mage 8.

    These ensure that you reach high enough level in the second class to unlock the first class before hitting the BG1 XP cap (assuming TotSC or BGEE). They may not net you the strongest character at the end of the game, but you get to enjoy the class you really want to play for the majority of the saga.

    Unfortunately, there are some suboptimal numbers in there. For example, when Dualing to a Cleric, a Fighter or Ranger must stop the level before their APR increases, a Mage must stop the level before unlocking 4th level spells, and a Thief must stop the level before unlocking a new weapon proficiency point.

    Alternatively, if you don't care as much about unlocking the first class during BG1 (but still want to be a Cleric during BG1), you could do something like:

    Fighter 7, Ranger 7, Mage 8 or Thief 8 into Cleric 7.
    Fighter 8 or Thief 9 into Cleric 6.
    Mage 9 into Cleric 5.
    Ranger 8 into Cleric 4.
    Thief 10 into Cleric 1.

    GreenWarlockContemplative_HamsterProontSkatan
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,991

    @Astafas Why Abjurer?

    For me they dovetail well if you dual to a cleric, since the abjurer requires high wisdom anyway,

    GreenWarlockAstafasRaduziel
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