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What can I cast sleep on

The in-game text says sleep affects anything with hit die 4 or less, which I learned is equivalent to level. For Kirian in Mutamin's Garden, her level is 5 according to wiki, does that mean sleep has no effect on her? How come people say sleep is overpowered then? So far all the tough enemies I encounter are all higher than level 4, and enemies below level 5 I can easily take care of.

Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,576
    You can get sleep to affect a LOT of enemies. In general (there will always be a few exceptions, magic resistant enemies) you can get almost any humanoid to fall asleep from a bandit up to am ogre berserker. Most small enemies as well as more of the bounty hunters than you would think.

    lolienJuliusBorisovsemiticgodQuartz
  • FQVBSinaFQVBSina Member Posts: 19
    ThacoBell said:

    You can get sleep to affect a LOT of enemies. In general (there will always be a few exceptions, magic resistant enemies) you can get almost any humanoid to fall asleep from a bandit up to am ogre berserker. Most small enemies as well as more of the bounty hunters than you would think.

    Ok... Was my method of determining if sleep will affect the target correct though? That is by checking the level on wiki? Like for Kirian: https://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Kirian, it says level is 5/5 I don't know why it is /5...

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,195
    Kirian is a fighter/mage - level 5 in each. If you want to check lots of enemies you might want to get hold of EEKeeper - you can find that at https://eekeeper.sourceforge.io/

    JuliusBorisovsemiticgod
  • FQVBSinaFQVBSina Member Posts: 19
    Grond0 said:

    Kirian is a fighter/mage - level 5 in each. If you want to check lots of enemies you might want to get hold of EEKeeper - you can find that at https://eekeeper.sourceforge.io/

    Thanks!

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,576
    @Ammar I would keep sleep at least through SoD. It still works on about half the enemies there and can make the large mob fights MUCH easier. In fact, my standard SoD strategy is to cast Haste, Sleep, Slow.

    Grond0JuliusBorisovsemiticgodAerakar
  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 98
    "Haste, sleep, slow." ... Also a good strategy for a night on the town :p

    ThacoBellJuliusBorisovAerakar
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,576
    I only remove sleep from my spellbook when I can replace it with the Death spell.

    JuliusBorisov
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 2,468
    ThacoBell said:

    I only remove sleep from my spellbook when I can replace it with the Death spell.

    I do so earlier, replacing it with Emotion: Hopelessness

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,576
    Raduziel said:

    ThacoBell said:

    I only remove sleep from my spellbook when I can replace it with the Death spell.

    I do so earlier, replacing it with Emotion: Hopelessness
    Would you believe I only recently discovered that spell? I tend to use sleep/death as a way to not spend a lot of time or any risk with smaller encounters. If whatever I'm facing can handle those spells, then I pay attention to the fight.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 2,468
    I do believe. I just discovered how OP Enchantment is recently, in a run I did. During that run I explored all the spells from that school and I made some good discoveries

    1) It's the best school to be a specialist because many of the spells already comes with a save penalty cumulative with the one provided by being a specialist.

    1b) You also resist better those spells.

    2) The most overrated Enchantment spell is Confusion. The best spell is Emotion: Hopelessness. Feeblemind comes as a close second.

    3) The amount of damage you receive decreases incredibly when you can charm or hold your enemies. Pretty much all the spells are a "I win" button.

    4) Crowd control beats massive damage.

    ThacoBellAerakarQuartzNimran
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,195
    Raduziel said:

    I do believe. I just discovered how OP Enchantment is recently, in a run I did. During that run I explored all the spells from that school and I made some good discoveries

    1) It's the best school to be a specialist because many of the spells already comes with a save penalty cumulative with the one provided by being a specialist.

    1b) You also resist better those spells.

    2) The most overrated Enchantment spell is Confusion. The best spell is Emotion: Hopelessness. Feeblemind comes as a close second.

    3) The amount of damage you receive decreases incredibly when you can charm or hold your enemies. Pretty much all the spells are a "I win" button.

    4) Crowd control beats massive damage.

    Emotion is a nice spell, but I love confusion (well actually I love chaos, I only like confusion). You correctly refer to the benefits of saving throw penalties and to my mind that's a major factor in confusion's favor.

    I normally play solo though, which makes a big difference. In a party situation a group of confused enemies running round attacking the nearest creature can be difficult to deal with. Playing solo it's not - it just becomes another source of damage to kill the enemies with.

  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 2,512
    Just an aside if anyone is interested in sleep working a little different and staying useful even longer; sleep scales with the caster lvl in Spell Revisions.

    RaduzielThacoBellsemiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,451
    @Zaghoul: Yeah, but, only like, up to level 20.

    Laaaaame. :wink:

    ThacoBell
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    Raduziel said:

    I do believe. I just discovered how OP Enchantment is recently, in a run I did. During that run I explored all the spells from that school and I made some good discoveries

    1) It's the best school to be a specialist because many of the spells already comes with a save penalty cumulative with the one provided by being a specialist.

    1b) You also resist better those spells.

    2) The most overrated Enchantment spell is Confusion. The best spell is Emotion: Hopelessness. Feeblemind comes as a close second.

    3) The amount of damage you receive decreases incredibly when you can charm or hold your enemies. Pretty much all the spells are a "I win" button.

    4) Crowd control beats massive damage.

    The biggest weakness of Enchanters is losing access to Web, which just seems stupid and unfair. I don't care about the mechanism of the spell, it's just dumb that the "direct damage" school also gets the single best crowd control spell in the game, while the "crowd control" school gets locked out of it. (Also dumb: Stinking Cloud, the same-level analog to Web... is also Evocation.)

    Transmuters are also low-key badass specialists. They cast Slow with a -6(!!!) save penalty, plus have three different "Save or Die" spells. All three can destroy enemy loot, but (a) most enemies don't have loot worth caring about, and (b) there are mods that can change that behavior.

    Grond0AerakarQuartz
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,576
    I always found web to be really annoying. I don't want to get my characters stuck too. Enchantment has more party friendly crowd control.

    AerakarRaduzielelminsterQuartz
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    ThacoBell said:

    I always found web to be really annoying. I don't want to get my characters stuck too. Enchantment has more party friendly crowd control.

    Ranged characters aren't hindered by web, and melee characters simply need a source of free action to shrug off its effects. One copy of Edventar's Gift (ring of free action) can be obtained straight out of the prologue in Ulgoth's Beard, Spider's Bane is one of the best weapons in the game and comes early into Cloakwood, and a second Edventar's Gift can eventually be obtained in Baldur's Gate, (though one or two items are already plenty for most of my parties).

    If you're not getting the Ulgoth's Beard ring of free action, I agree that web can be much more annoying, since Spider's Bane isn't exactly a traditional tank weapon. Though I'd note that Enchantment isn't getting a really good wide-AoE disabler other than Sleep until you reach Baldur's Gate (and its Ring of Free Action), anyway.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,576
    @SomeSort Its a playstyle thing. I like to have 3 dedicated melee fighters, and I'd much rather be able to haste my party. Free action is annoying for this reason as well.

    SomeSortAerakar
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,763
    elminster said:

    The creatures the spell will work on include; black talon elites, bandits, ankhegs, giant spiders, huge spiders, gibberlings, xvarts, wolves, dire wolves, black bears, gnolls, gnoll elite, gnoll veterans, flind, hobgoblin, hobgoblin elite, chill hobgoblin, half-ogre, ogre, ogre berserker, ogrillion, tasloi, kobolds, and kobold commandos.

    The fact that Sleep is so versatile in BG1 is absolutely insane.

    Aerakar
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 220
    If I recall the cleric spell Command also works on some surprisingly powerful enemies. I remember it works on that guy with the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, who's pretty late in the game.

    ThacoBellAerakarQuartz
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 3,195
    There's no level limitation on command like there is on sleep, i.e. it has a chance of working on anyone not immune to mind spells. In addition, command doesn't offer a save to lower level creatures so can be used to get easy kills on things like ankhegs.

    RaduzielAerakarThacoBellQuartz
  • SomeSortSomeSort Member Posts: 859
    Grond0 said:

    There's no level limitation on command like there is on sleep, i.e. it has a chance of working on anyone not immune to mind spells. In addition, command doesn't offer a save to lower level creatures so can be used to get easy kills on things like ankhegs.

    Recruit Viconia > Memorize Command > Slaughter Ankhegs used to be my go-to speed leveling tactic until I got the basilisk routine down.

    Grond0
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