Spell: Sleep - nerf it

Dark_Neuron

Early game is seriously easy because of this spell.

I propose that sleeping enemies have a chance to wake up when hit.

Ken

I mean come on, it makes the lvl 1 spell "Sleep" immensely overpowered! You already get a huge bonus when hitting a sleeping target, but when they don't wake up it is pretty much instakill.

And didn't creatures awake when being hit in BG2? Or was it only Icewind Dale?

This needs to be changed

Mortianna

You should be able to deliver a "killing blow" to sleeping enemies (they're helpless, after all), so the fact that they don't wake up compensates for the lack of the coup de grace option that would apply in PnP.

Shin

This isn't a bug actually, the game used to work like that. ToBEx has a feature that handles this, so when/if it gets adapted for the EE the choice will be yours again.

DinsdalePiranha

@Ken: it worked like this in IWD, and and ToBEx also added the option of enemies waking after hit... but in vanilla BG, you could beat half the world to death while they were happily asleep.

darkkhaine

Well, i too was wondering if this was a bug or not. I always used the "default" installation of TobEx and don't remember this, but it may be because of other mods.

Chow

They should wake up by default when hit, period. It's how the tabletop did it, it's how Icewind Dale did it, and it'd make pretty much perfect sense.

...On the other hand, tabletop also had it that you could just kill a sleeping and helpless enemy instantly, without any fuss.

Dark_Neuron

Which is why I proposed there is a chance. This is not tabletop

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Chow

Dark_Neuron said:

Which is why I proposed there is a chance. This is not tabletop

I agree. For the most part I'm all for making BG as much like tabletop as possible, but there's only so far we can go with that.

TJ_Hooker

Huh, I thought I remembered reading on these forums way back that they had changed it so that sleeping characters woke up when hit.

RedGuard

I say keep it for lower difficulties, but have it as 'wake upon hit' on normal or higher difficulties.

Tome

Perhaps have any hit on a sleeping character an instant crit, but have them wake up on hit?

Dee

What I don't like about Sleep is that, while game-breaking at low levels, it's absolutely useless once you hit level 6 or so.

My counterproposal is that any enemy affected by it with 4 or fewer hit dice gets no save, but can save each round after the first to wake up immediately; any enemy with more than 4 hit dice gets a save, and an additional save each round thereafter.

And getting hit wakes up the target. You get considerable bonuses when attacking a sleeping target anyway; I don't see any real need to keep the target unconscious inevitably.

Anduin

Stop nerfing my level 1 fireball spell!

thedemoninside

Or....how about this! The early game is easy anyway(if you have any experience with BG1) so a very efficient way of dealing with your opinion on the spell would be to forget about it and fix real problems.

;p

I had to fill my "Dick-comment-of-the-day" quota. Man, I feel much better now.

I don't even use the sleep spell. I would rather throw burny/shocky/icey things from my magic fingers and make things go pewpew.

Dee

@thedemoninside
I used to be like that, but then I tried Sleep once, and I was amazed by how effective it was. Until level 5 now, that's the first spell I throw in any battle against a group.

Chow

I use Sleep a lot in Icewind Dale, but hardly ever in Baldur's Gate, which is fairly curious.

mister_ennui

For what it's worth the tabletop 2E rules state:

"Slapping or wounding awakens affected creatures but normal noise does not." (from the Sleep spell description in the 2E Player's Handbook)

and

"If the defender is attacked during the course of a normal melee, the attack automatically hits and causes normal damage. If no other fighting is going on (i.e. all others have been slain or driven off), the defender can be slain automatically." (from the Combat Modifiers table in both the 2E Player's Handbook and the 2E Dungeon Master's Guide).

thedemoninside

So maybe it is a compromise of the system. They did not wan't to have to program in a system to determine if a npc is the last one alive during the course of battle during a sleep spell for the insta-kill, so we get something slightly different.

I don't see the problem. If the spell loses its greatness after a few levels and only makes the early game easier than it already is, then it isn't much of a problem imo.

Dee

For me, it's only an issue because of how useless it is in the later parts of the game. Part of designing a game is making sure that no tool becomes totally irrelevant. Sleep is great for BG1, but in BG2 it's a wasted spell slot because so many enemies are immune to it by virtue of their levels alone.

Making it slightly less potent but still useful at all levels would make it a spell that mages might actually want to keep in their spellbooks, rather than erasing it when they reach Amn to make room for other more useful level 1 spells.

thedemoninside

There are lots of useless spells though. The fact that sleep is good at all is nice lol. I guess my playstyle has me using defensive magic more than anything. I rarely use offensive because I tend to hurt my own party, and limited spell slots between resting also makes spells a quick trick for fun more than anything. I use the identify spell the most.

I guess I just find it easier to throw a sling on a mage and have him cast mirror image if it is available. What spells do you guys use the most, just out of curiosity(besides sleep)?

Dee

I memorize Identify (a must-have for late in either game) and, once it starts being useful, Magic Missile (goes well with any sequencer).

At the start of the game, though, Sleep is my go-to because it's the best way to neutralize a large group of bandits/gibberlings/kobolds/xvarts/angry townspeople quickly.

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PugPug

Sleep is not the only spell with a hit dice limit. But I generally think such a thing is not very good game design.

ST4TICStriker

was it in first edition that the spell acted like this?

I seem to remember in one edition or another the spell put the target into a coma and even attacks wouldn't take them.

Doesn't matter anyway, that spell has always been house ruled for "first hit wakes" by almost everybody.

Chow

First and second edition. And first hit waking up is not really a house rule: it's explicitly stated in the book.

bbear

Isn't sleep op when it works? It will most likely kill the sleeping victim. But I do agree with others that the hit dice limit is a poor design choice. Nerf it so it causes drowsiness. Instead of disabling the target, it causes the target to suffer -2 to hit and -2 to ac. Lasts for 2 rounds and no hit dice limit, but no save for creatures lv4 or lower.

Dee

bbear said:

Isn't sleep op when it works? It will most likely kill the sleeping victim. But I do agree with others that the hit dice limit is a poor design choice. Nerf it so it causes drowsiness. Instead of disabling the target, it causes the target to suffer -2 to hit and -2 to ac. Lasts for 2 rounds and no hit dice limit, but no save for creatures lv4 or lower.

...And then another spell, higher-level, that has the effects of the current Sleep spell but with no hit dice limit and a saving throw to negate its effects.

I could get behind that. Although -2 THAC0/AC isn't very interesting as a spell.

bbear

maybe add the effect of slow in addition to the thaco/ac penalty.

Dee

Except that then it's basically just the Slow spell.