Fighter/Mage/Cleric

Pluc082

Did someone ever use this class? It's playable in BG1? And what's the fighter add to a mage/cleric? Thanks in advance!

Redrake

It is playable. It might be difficult to level up at first. The character levels up very slowly. However, he/she can use armor and shields just like a fighter and cast spells while in armor just like a cleric. But no wizard spells, in armor. Your character is also restricted to only the weapons a cleric can use (blunt and slings).

ST4TICStriker

Fighter adds their Thaco and a lot more Hitpoints (if you have 18 con) but I think this combo would only make it to level 5 throughout all the game.

Pluc082

I calculate with the exp table and I think fighter and mage up to level 6 and cleric to level 7. Not bad, with cleric level 7 you can use level 4 spells.

Nazad

Yes, in BG a fighter/mage/cleric will be 6/6/7. The main benefits of this multiclass are access to two spell lists, a fighter's hit point bonus for high constitution, and a fighter's THACo. Because your caster level is low, your most useful mage spells are probably going to be things like shield, blur and mirror image. At least, that's what worked for me when I played one, using robes of the archmage and wizard buffs for AC.

valky

@Nazad:
The problem is, that also the con bonus is "shared" for all classes, which are present in ones multiclass-setup. In the triple-case I'd go definitely for 18..anything else is just wrong, even if it nets you only a mere +1HP (compared to 17 con!) if all 3 classes get their level up. So a fighter gets the +4 bonus but divided /3; cleric +2 (limitation) (d8+2)/3..and so on.

In that case even if you use the constitution book, you won't get any benefit from having 19 con, as the only sub-class 'd be the fighter but: (10+4)/3)=5HP .. (10+5)/3=5HP .. see the difference ^^ ? [d10 fighter + 4 con boni for having 18...and so on; always rounded down]

Just to clarify the con problem though ^^ I don't really mind the triple-whatever-combinations players are using

sandmanCCL

Honestly, the fighter part doesn't really add a whole lot. It just makes it so you can reach 2 pips in any given weapon or fighting style, and slightly better HP.

Eventually in BG2, it's bogged down a lot compared to a multi-class mage/cleric. It's not a big deal for BG1, but it really does suck for BG2. Eventually a mage/cleric can pretend he's a fighter (actually, he'd be more powerful than a fighter) of equivalent level anyway, so I think it's pointless.

valky

Don't underestimate the power of havin' 0.5 apr more! - it's clearly a gamebreaker! That's the only difference by having 2 pips; as you won't reach lvl 7 for 2 apr in the fighter-class in bgee. (w00t..+1 thac0/2 dam of course for having 2 pips)
Then again wouldn't be a wisely chosen 2-mclass be better? It's not just my cup of tea...as they reach higher level so the thac0 is negated...

/irony off

(and yes..those classes might be awesome in BG2..but not in BG1)

TJ_Hooker

valky said:

@Nazad:
The problem is, that also the con bonus is "shared" for all classes, which are present in ones multiclass-setup. In the triple-case I'd go definitely for 18..anything else is just wrong, even if it nets you only a mere +1HP (compared to 17 con!) if all 3 classes get their level up. So a fighter gets the +4 bonus but divided /3; cleric +2 (limitation) (d8+2)/3..and so on.

In that case even if you use the constitution book, you won't get any benefit from having 19 con, as the only sub-class 'd be the fighter but: (10+4)/3)=5HP .. (10+5)/3=5HP .. see the difference ^^ ? [d10 fighter + 4 con boni for having 18...and so on; always rounded down]

Just to clarify the con problem though ^^ I don't really mind the triple-whatever-combinations players are using

I don't think you're calculating the HPs correctly there. For 1 total level (ie one level up in each class) it would be (1D10)/3 + (1D8)/3 + (1D4)/3 + CON bonus. For each hit dice division, value is rounded down (eg for figher the max would be 10/3, rounded down,=3). You don't lose any of the bonus HPs from constitution due to round off though. So max HP for 1 total level (not including CON bonus) would be 3+2+1=6. With 18 CON, you'd have a total of 10HP/level, with 19 CON a total of 11HP/level, etc.

sandmanCCL

@Valky: Yeah, I agree. In BG1, there's something to be said of the fighter levels but that evaporates as soon as you'd hit level 4th level divine spells..

Holy Power gives you pretty nice bonus HP, all the strength you'd ever want, and the thac0 of an equivalent level fighter.

Then when you hit level 5 divine spells in BG2, you can throw Righteous Magic into the mix and again, hit like a mac truck. Once you get level 6 arcane spells, you can throw Tenser's Transformation out there and become a god among men.



I greatly prefer just a mage/cleric over a fighter/mage/cleric.

valky

TJ_Hooker said:

I don't think you're calculating the HPs correctly there. For 1 total level (ie one level up in each class) it would be (1D10)/3 + (1D8)/3 + (1D4)/3 + CON bonus. For each hit dice division, value is rounded down (eg for figher the max would be 10/3, rounded down,=3). You don't lose any of the bonus HPs from constitution due to round off though. So max HP for 1 total level (not including CON bonus) would be 3+2+1=6. With 18 CON, you'd have a total of 10HP/level, with 19 CON a total of 11HP/level, etc.

Nope & I went thru a lot (!) discussions to confirm this shit. Each class get their appropriate con bonus applied while you level up.
Why should a Fighter/thief/cleric suddenly get a con-boni by havin 17 of 3 for _all_ classes instead of 2 for only T/C as per 2nd edition? And the Con-boni is applied before doing the roll...then again; I never played such stupid class-combinations in BG1/2.
Or do you use rule-changing mods, where your non-fighter classes suddenly get a con bonus of 17+ valid to their level up? don't think so.


@sandmanCCL: as already mentioned; I prefer a mere dual-class if am not playing IWD2! :P

Nazad

Mage/cleric is great, and I've played that and probably prefer it over Fighter/Mage/Cleric. But Mage/Cleric only gets one attack per round. Holy Power doesn't give you the attacks per round of a fighter of equivalent level. As a multiclass, you have a much lower caster level, and your holy power can be dispelled. The F/M/C retains at all times a fighter's THAC0 and number of attacks per round. Holy Power + Improved Haste + Righteous Might turns this multiclass into a monster.

TJ_Hooker

valky said:

TJ_Hooker said:

I don't think you're calculating the HPs correctly there. For 1 total level (ie one level up in each class) it would be (1D10)/3 + (1D8)/3 + (1D4)/3 + CON bonus. For each hit dice division, value is rounded down (eg for figher the max would be 10/3, rounded down,=3). You don't lose any of the bonus HPs from constitution due to round off though. So max HP for 1 total level (not including CON bonus) would be 3+2+1=6. With 18 CON, you'd have a total of 10HP/level, with 19 CON a total of 11HP/level, etc.

Nope & I went thru a lot (!) discussions to confirm this shit. Each class get their appropriate con bonus applied while you level up.
Why should a Fighter/thief/cleric suddenly get a con-boni by havin 17 of 3 for _all_ classes instead of 2 for only T/C as per 2nd edition? And the Con-boni is applied before doing the roll...then again; I never played such stupid class-combinations in BG1/2.
Or do you use rule-changing mods, where your non-fighter classes suddenly get a con bonus of 17+ valid to their level up? don't think so.

Well go ahead and fire up the game if you don't believe me, but that's how it works based on the tests I've done. For the most part both of our formulas give the same results, but in certain cases yours is wrong. For example when you said there is no difference between 18 and 19 Con for a F/M/C. Going from 18 to 19 actually grants +1 HP/level. Same goes for a F/M/T. Oddly enought a level 1/1/1 F/M/C with 18 CON has 11 HP, which is inconsistent with either of our methods, but from then on gains 10 HP/level.

Edit: This is based off some tests I just did in BG:EE. I suppose it's possible it works differently in vanilla, but I'm pretty sure I remember it working the same.

sandmanCCL

Nazad said:

Mage/cleric is great, and I've played that and probably prefer it over Fighter/Mage/Cleric. But Mage/Cleric only gets one attack per round. Holy Power doesn't give you the attacks per round of a fighter of equivalent level. As a multiclass, you have a much lower caster level, and your holy power can be dispelled. The F/M/C retains at all times a fighter's THAC0 and number of attacks per round. Holy Power + Improved Haste + Righteous Might turns this multiclass into a monster.

Holy Power doesn't get you extra attacks, but Tenser's Transformation does.

You'd only be down a 1/2 attack per round from weapon specialization over f/m/c

Nazad

sandmanCCL said:

Nazad said:

Mage/cleric is great, and I've played that and probably prefer it over Fighter/Mage/Cleric. But Mage/Cleric only gets one attack per round. Holy Power doesn't give you the attacks per round of a fighter of equivalent level. As a multiclass, you have a much lower caster level, and your holy power can be dispelled. The F/M/C retains at all times a fighter's THAC0 and number of attacks per round. Holy Power + Improved Haste + Righteous Might turns this multiclass into a monster.

Holy Power doesn't get you extra attacks, but Tenser's Transformation does.

You'd only be down a 1/2 attack per round from weapon specialization over f/m/c

Good analysis! I prefer the mage/cleric as you do. Still, the mage caster level is low due to multiclassing and much easier to dispel. That was my experience with smarter spellcaster mods installed.

TJ_Hooker

@sandmanCCL are you sure Tenser's gives extra attacks? I thought so too, but I think this may just be a result the mods I have installed, as all the spell descriptions I'm finding online specifically says it doesn't.

Edit: Yeah as far as I can tell the extra attacks are just something added by Spell Revisions.

sandmanCCL

Well, shoot, looking at the spell description it says at the end: NOTE THIS DOES NOT GIVE THE SPELLCASTER ANY EXTRA ATTACKS.

My bad.

Still. Extra attacks are a giant "don't care" in my view. Wait til the attack hits, then use the rest of the round to cast a spell.

Nazad

@Pluc082 Fighter/Mage/Cleric gets better attacks per round and spells can't substitute for that in the case of a mage/cleric. I think that's significant. There are a lot of ways to raise your Strength and THAC0 but not a lot of ways to get extra attacks, which will all get doubled by improved haste if you were to play the character in BG2EE.

valky

Nazad said:

@Pluc082 Fighter/Mage/Cleric gets better attacks per round *sniüp.

lol, whatever you say....

ZanathKariashi

They actually do. Unlike a cleric/mage a F/M/C can put ** in two weapon style for an extra attack without a huge thac0 penalty. And once the sequel starts they'll quickly pick up a 3rd attack once their fighter level hits 7 (with a specialized weapon). Also they'll eventually 13 fighter for another half-attack and because they're part fighter can wear the gauntlets of extraordinary specialization for an additional 1/2 attack. That's 4 total, before spells. Under Improved haste that's 8 attacks. With all the same spells and buffs a cleric/mage has up to about 8th level. And they get Fighter HLA (and cleric), so you could use FoA/Defender of easthaven, shield of faith + hardiness for around 80% damage reduction (it's a little less then a F/C due to the lower caster level, but WAY more then a M/C due to hardiness), beyond your outright damage blocking spells from mage. And there's always critical strike and/or GWW to consider.

valky

TJ_Hooker said:

Well go ahead and fire up the game if you don't believe me, but that's how it works based on the tests I've done. For the most part both of our formulas give the same results, but in certain cases yours is wrong. For example when you said there is no difference between 18 and 19 Con for a F/M/C. Going from 18 to 19 actually grants +1 HP/level. Same goes for a F/M/T. Oddly enought a level 1/1/1 F/M/C with 18 CON has 11 HP, which is inconsistent with either of our methods, but from then on gains 10 HP/level.

Edit: This is based off some tests I just did in BG:EE. I suppose it's possible it works differently in vanilla, but I'm pretty sure I remember it working the same.

Dunno, what rules BG/BGEE follows anymore, as our dungeon master would have denied such stupid shit. You can't just apply the full con bonus for any other class than fighter/pala/ranger if you are comfortable with it.

edit/edit: 18 or 19 con does not play a role at all..it's only the rounding system in BG favoured towards the player, which is not favored towards per dnd towards the player as it is always rounded down.
((d10+4)/3)+((d8+2)/3)+((d4+2)/3) is still 10 HP for me...or maybe you show us your magic pnp-math, where you mystically get hidden dices out of nowhere?
This is only based on my pnp experience though...don't bother myself playing a triple-mclass in bg1^^

elminster

I'm looking at this class but I'm on the fence. It just doesn't seem worth it. At least the fighter portion anyways.

atcDave

elminster said:

I'm looking at this class but I'm on the fence. It just doesn't seem worth it. At least the fighter portion anyways.

Strictly speaking you're completely right Elminster, I don't think the fighter class really adds enough to make it worth the experience hit. But you know, I've had a blast playing an F/M/C. It's sort of tricky, and your character will always be behind the rest of the party. But it's a great utility player. Being able to cast any sort of spell, and being killer with a sling!
It's a fun combo, but more as a "challenge" than as a strong character.

elminster

Yea it seems like it is best used with spells that by-in-large don't improve with level (at least for the non-buff spells). Like emotion:hopelessness, sleep, etc. Its also kind of an odd choice that only half-elves can get it when elves can't. I mean clearly its not their human half that is letting them multiclass.

zur312

fmc is pretty cool
with duhm mirror images and other stuff

i played ilusionist/cleric solo and i think it is not the best combo for bg1 you can have only 1,5 apr with haste and that is really slow

elminster

zur312 said:

fmc is pretty cool
with duhm mirror images and other stuff

i played ilusionist/cleric solo and i think it is not the best combo for bg1 you can have only 1,5 apr with haste and that is really slow

Any character under haste has a minimum of 2 APR. In any case it just sort of seems like at some point the amount of protections you can get from a fighter/mage/cleric become redundant. Armor of Faith doesn't really do a lot for you when you have all the elemental protection spells, stoneskin, and mirror image for instance.

zur312

but duhm aid free action summon skeletons sanctuary are pretty good

TheGreatKhan

I've never actually played a FMC in BGEE, the only time I ever played one in was in BG2.

The base FMC gets pretty powerful by the 8mil exp cap, but for the majority of the game you'll be at least a spell level or two behind any other caster you have in your party.

I did however play a FMC with a fix pack and with no exp limit and if you do this, eventually you'll hit level 40 with all three classes and arguably be the strongest character class you can create. Though it will take at least several whole games to hit level 40 with all 3.

zur312

TheGreatKhan said:

I've never actually played a FMC in BGEE, the only time I ever played one in was in BG2.

The base FMC gets pretty powerful by the 8mil exp cap, but for the majority of the game you'll be at least a spell level or two behind any other caster you have in your party.

I did however play a FMC with a fix pack and with no exp limit and if you do this, eventually you'll hit level 40 with all three classes and arguably be the strongest character class you can create. Though it will take at least several whole games to hit level 40 with all 3.

no you won't because it is comparable to 90~ level mage and if mage could progress like he normaly do he would destroy 40/40/31 fmc

karnor00

FMC is pretty decent in BG1. Since the amount of experience you need to level pretty much doubles for most classes up to about level 8 or so, the FMC is only ever one and a bit levels behind the single class characters.

But for the higher levels you need a fixed amount for each additional level. So the FMC starts levelling at 1/3rd of the single class speed. What this means is that by the time the single class mage reaches level 18 (and some really powerful spells), the FMC is still stuck around level 12ish. By the time the FMC gets those top level spells everyone else has finished the game and gone home for supper.

If you want to play solo, or with a very small party then the FMC is a lot more useful (even moreso if you remove the xp cap). But in a full party they are just too slow to level up.

Heindrich

As I reach (I guess) the midgame of Shadow of Amn, the benefit of Dual-class over Multi-class is becoming quite apparent, as Anomen surges ahead of Aerie in terms of spell levels, even though Aerie's been with the party since she was rescued right after Irenicus' Dungeon, whereas I've done some things without Anomen. In time, I suspect Imoen, who is way behind everyone else right now, will actually become my party's primary Arcane caster.

Which makes me think... FMC levelling must be unbearably slow, and I don't know why anyone would choose to do that, except I guess for roleplay purposes, or for a specific mod. It's all very nice having a super flexible character, but he/she can only do one thing at a time, so you might as well make him/her proficient at it. One character cannot be hacking at somebody with a sword, and casting both Arcane and Priest spells at the same time.