Blade Kit "Builds?"

Philhelm

I want to try out a Bard since I like the idea of someone that can swing a blade and sling a spell. It seems that the Blade would be the most combat oriented of the Bard kits. What about weapon proficiencies? One of the Blade's bonuses is that he can have three points in dual-weapon fighting, but is that the only viable way to go? My problem with dual-wielding and shields is that it precludes the use of two-handed ranged weapons. Would a Blade wielding a greatsword or a longsword with single-weapon fighting be viable? I could see the greatsword being okay due to the max damage with offensive spin, but he'd lose out on the extra attack, so I'm not sure.

Also, what kind of INT score should Bards try to have at character creation?

MERLANCE

An 18 Intelligence would let you have more spells known in your spellbook, and less chance of spell learning failure with scrolls.

The draw of the blade is two weapon fighting. That being said, you won't be as good at it as a fighter in BG1, so using a two handed weapon and a bow in the first game and switch over in the second to dual long swords, daggers, whatever, would be fine.

Darkovan

16-18 on the int, pref 18 if u want to play the character again in BG2:EE

All the weapon options you have mentioned would work, however, the duel-wield is an attempt to make up for the lack of attacks/round that are inherent to bards/thieves.

Deucetipher

Blade is an awesome, awesome class, particularly late game. Two handed weapon blades are perfectly viable, and your high dex lends itself to range.

You've pointed out the blade's major weakness, lack of attacks. Dual wielding, especially dual wielding kundane and belm (and scarlet ninjato, after UAI) can address this, and also the bard's ability to self-buff.

In BG1, your blade will be the best damage caster in your party, as his faster level progression allows for 10d6 fireballs, skull traps, lightning. You'll get twice the power out of flame arrow as well. Your chromatic orb will be able to petrify.

INT is important for scribing success rate. My current blade is at 17, which is pretty good. You can cheat a bit lower if you're willing to spend potions to learn spells.

I recommend modifying Dorotea.cre before you begin to remove the undroppable flag from her elven chain, as that is really the only decent protection spellcasting bards can utilize.

Pantalion

I don't mean this to deny you playing the character you'd enjoy, but have you considered a Fighter/Mage? The Blade can specialise in weapons, and dual wield, and even use a greatsword, but they're a Thief class, with Thief THAC0 progression, Thief Proficiecies, and Thief APR - that's one attack per round, specialising in your weapon of choice doesn't boost it, and you only get 4 proficiencies by the level cap.

A Fighter/Mage gets the Fighter THAC0 progression (14 vs 16), attacks per round (1.5 + 0.5 for specialisation), Con bonus to HP, and two more proficiency points. They can also wear Robes, which unless/until they implement the Elven Chain in BG1 are the only armour mages can wear whilst still being spellcasters, and they can put two pips into Two Handed Weapon Proficiency, which works out if you're going to be casting with a claymore.

Like I said, if you'd sooner play a bard, fine by me, the above is just based on what you've mentioned wanting.

For a Blade, maximise intelligence, consider going Elf for the +1 THAC0 with swords. You basically have a few optimal melee choices in BG1 - Scimitars, Long Swords, Zweihanders, and for TotSC material I'd suggest having a proficiency in Bastard Swords or Daggers or something. Scimitars include Drizzt's +3 scimitars and two +2 weapons as well, which is nice. Zweihanders, you may end up competing with Minsc or Dorn, Long Swords have Varscona, an early and decent +2 sword... And Short/Long Bows, your pick, but they're freakishly awesome, and both have +2 THAC0/Damage variants.

If you don't want to dual-wield (an expensive proposition in BG 1 for a bard), then consider a point in Single Weapon Fighting, you'll double your crit rate and get some crucial bonus AC.

Stats for a bard ideally would be:

18/19/17/18/3/12 or whatever the minimum Charisma is. You'll never get Wish, so you'll never need Wisdom, your Strength will be increased to 19 to remove the disadvantage of not having 18/XX Fighter Strength, your Dex is maxed for AC and ranged THAC0, and your Con is 17 so you can grab a Tome and then put on the Claw of Kangaxx for yet more essential AC. Intelligence is to ensure you learn scrolls reliably, if you care little about reloading such things, then it can be lower.

Philhelm

Darkovan said:

16-18 on the int, pref 18 if u want to play the character again in BG2:EE

How many max spells can he have at 16 INT or higher?

TJ_Hooker

I'd recommend 1 pip in a melee weapon, 1 in a ranged weapon to start, as ranged weapons rock at lower levels. From there you can put the 2 additional proficiencies you'll eventually get into 2 weapon fighting. You may not hit a lot with your off hand, but at least you won't suffer any penalties with you main hand. For my curent playthrough I'm going with scimitars, so I could use a scimitar wielded by a certain drow ranger in my off hand for a +2 AC bonus.

elminster

Philhelm said:

Darkovan said:

16-18 on the int, pref 18 if u want to play the character again in BG2:EE

How many max spells can he have at 16 INT or higher?

11 spells at 16
14 spells at 17
18 spells at 18
(after 18 [tome needed] you can have as many spells as you'd like in your spell book)

The_New_Romance

@Philhelm 11 spells in the spellbook per level at 16 INT, if that is what you mean. If not, have a look at http://stane0.tripod.com/BG1Tables.html, maybe it helps answer your questions.

sandmanCCL

@Pantalion: You can't be an elf bard.

My typical blade build:

Strength: 15 or better
Dexterity: maxed
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: maxed
Wisdom: 4 minimum
Charisma: 15 (minimum value)

Ideally you could do better than this. This is just the minimum values I'll roll with and anything better really doesn't increase you're effectiveness a whole lot. This also assumes you're going to dump all the tomes on your CHARNAME.

Logic: Bards really don't need to carry a whole lot of weight. You're capped at 18 without exceptional bonuses anyway. Ideally you'd want 17 because that's when thac0 bonus kicks in, but honestly I just utilize the 2nd level spell "Strength." 18/50 strength = +1 to hit, +3 damage. If you manage to get 18 and use the strength tome to get 19, that's all great and everything but it's really not a priority to get the most out of your blade. Once BG2 rolls around, just slap on a belt of strength.

Dexterity should be maxed on literally every character you ever roll if you're power gaming. It's just that important, for everyone.

Constitution 15 + 1 from the tome gives you all the bonuses you'll need. I usually give the Claw of Kazgoroh to an NPC anyway. I've never been a fan of rolling stats higher than I'd need just to utilize it as a piece of gear.

Intelligence is great for all spellcasters, though if you're not opposed to dropping difficulty to ensure scroll success rate, it's less important. I still like having diversity in my spellbook so never encountering the number of known spells limit is neat.

Wisdom 4 + 3 tomes of wisdom = 7, which only barely gives you a slight penalty to lore. Your high intelligence score will offset this, and the lore from leveling as a blade should take care of the rest.

Charisma 15 = bare minimum. Ain't like you need more of it. Bonus to discount at shops, which is pretty much the only reason to care one whit about the stat, stops at 20 and you'll exceed that from one cast of the level 1 spell "Friends." Milk any extra points out of this as you can to throw into your other stats.

WEAPON CHOICES:
I'm so over caring about weapon choices anymore. Literally everything is good. If people tell you "OMG U NEED DO THIS", they're silly. Attacks per round is not nearly as important as people make it out to be, especially because you get a few when you drop into offensive spin. I do think you ought to dual-wield, though, to get maximum benefit out of the class. The problem with trying to go two-handers is you can't get more than a single pip in any given weapon or style other than dual-wield so a blade is actually less capable with a two-handed sword than a skald would be.

Philhelm

sandmanCCL said:

WEAPON CHOICES:
I'm so over caring about weapon choices anymore. Literally everything is good. If people tell you "OMG U NEED DO THIS", they're silly. Attacks per round is not nearly as important as people make it out to be, especially because you get a few when you drop into offensive spin. I do think you ought to dual-wield, though, to get maximum benefit out of the class. The problem with trying to go two-handers is you can't get more than a single pip in any given weapon or style other than dual-wield so a blade is actually less capable with a two-handed sword than a skald would be.

*If* I weren't to go the dual-wield route, would it be better to use a greatsword or longsword with single-handed fighting for the extra point of AC? Also, one of the benefits of the two-handed or single-handed proficiencies is the extra critical threat range, which I think could have good potential synergy with the Offensive Spin (i.e. max damage).

smeagolheart

this is a good link to almost everything you need to know about classes, races and kits (link goes to bard)

http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Classes_and_Kits#Bard

DrEast

Note that Bards tend to have "use any item" as an HLA; thus, if you look ahead, you may in fact be able to have your blade wield Carsomyr. (Furthermore, some bard mods from Song and Silence give the blade whirlwind as an HLA, and the two combo very well.)

Philhelm

DrEast said:

Note that Bards tend to have "use any item" as an HLA; thus, if you look ahead, you may in fact be able to have your blade wield Carsomyr. (Furthermore, some bard mods from Song and Silence give the blade whirlwind as an HLA, and the two combo very well.)

I've thought of that. Does being able to wield Carsomyr make an overwhelming difference?

Dragonspear

My blade's personal stats:

18 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Con, 18 Int, 10 Wisdom, 15 Cha

Yes that was from rolling. I do agree with what someone else said however, I went longsword/crossbow at the start and will put my points at level 4 and 8 into two weapon fighting.

Also personally, if I'm going to do a 2h Bard class, I'll go with Skald over Blade. But that's my RPer kicking in. (Plus on top of having a great song for a melee oriented party, the +1 to hit and damage help you a lot)

toanwrath

Inquiry on Blades and their proficiencies:
From what I gather, they can put three pips into Two-weapon fighting, and only one pip in any weapon. Here I have an image showing Haer'Dalis from BG2 with slightly different pip distributions...


Perhaps he could a put a third point in later, but how does he have a second pip in Short Sword? If Blades can specialize I will definitely play one, but when I just tried to make one I was only allowed to put one pip in any given weapon.

DJKajuru

@toanwrath , blades can't specialize. Haer D'Alis can do it, but it doesn't grant him an extra half attack per round, just a +1 to thac0 (which doesn't really make a difference after certain levels.)

toanwrath

@DJKajuru
Thank you for the clarification, it confused me to no end because it contradicted everywhere else I checked. Is it purely because he is a tiefling, was it an error, or just some cool flavor to make him seem more worthy?

DJKajuru

toanwrath said:

@DJKajuru
Thank you for the clarification, it confused me to no end because it contradicted everywhere else I checked. Is it purely because he is a tiefling, was it an error, or just some cool flavor to make him seem more worthy?

Well, he does have his own short swords, so I believe he's quite comfortable with them =D

Philhelm

Pantalion said:

I don't mean this to deny you playing the character you'd enjoy, but have you considered a Fighter/Mage? The Blade can specialise in weapons, and dual wield, and even use a greatsword, but they're a Thief class, with Thief THAC0 progression, Thief Proficiecies, and Thief APR - that's one attack per round, specialising in your weapon of choice doesn't boost it, and you only get 4 proficiencies by the level cap.

A Fighter/Mage gets the Fighter THAC0 progression (14 vs 16), attacks per round (1.5 + 0.5 for specialisation), Con bonus to HP, and two more proficiency points. They can also wear Robes, which unless/until they implement the Elven Chain in BG1 are the only armour mages can wear whilst still being spellcasters, and they can put two pips into Two Handed Weapon Proficiency, which works out if you're going to be casting with a claymore.

Like I said, if you'd sooner play a bard, fine by me, the above is just based on what you've mentioned wanting.

For a Blade, maximise intelligence, consider going Elf for the +1 THAC0 with swords. You basically have a few optimal melee choices in BG1 - Scimitars, Long Swords, Zweihanders, and for TotSC material I'd suggest having a proficiency in Bastard Swords or Daggers or something. Scimitars include Drizzt's +3 scimitars and two +2 weapons as well, which is nice. Zweihanders, you may end up competing with Minsc or Dorn, Long Swords have Varscona, an early and decent +2 sword... And Short/Long Bows, your pick, but they're freakishly awesome, and both have +2 THAC0/Damage variants.

If you don't want to dual-wield (an expensive proposition in BG 1 for a bard), then consider a point in Single Weapon Fighting, you'll double your crit rate and get some crucial bonus AC.

Stats for a bard ideally would be:

18/19/17/18/3/12 or whatever the minimum Charisma is. You'll never get Wish, so you'll never need Wisdom, your Strength will be increased to 19 to remove the disadvantage of not having 18/XX Fighter Strength, your Dex is maxed for AC and ranged THAC0, and your Con is 17 so you can grab a Tome and then put on the Claw of Kangaxx for yet more essential AC. Intelligence is to ensure you learn scrolls reliably, if you care little about reloading such things, then it can be lower.

You give sound advice, but I have a few counters. Regarding a Fighter/Mage, I agree that it would be more overtly powerful, but would defeat the purpose of wanting to play the Blade kit. Also, I like the fact that Blades can cast spells at a higher level than any Mage due to the experience cap and can use Defensive Spin in order to supplement spell casting by having a greater chance to avoid spell failure while engaged in combat. More importantly, Bards have hoods!

Longterm, one of the things I don't like about Dual Classing (I prefer to play as a Human) is that I have to wait in order to see the character reach fruition. This is especially troublesome when BG2 is thrown into the mix since while having a Fighter 7/Mage 8 is good in BG1, I probably would have wanted a more even level distribution in BG2. In order to do that I'd have to play pure Fighter in BG1.

Also, I really like the HLA Use Any Item; while it will be long in the waiting, it will be like Christmas Day when I gain it in BG2:EE.

Regarding the weapon types, the Spiderbane, which I believe is a +2 greatsword that adds freedom of movement, would allow the Blade to move while using Defensive Spin, yet not prevent haste like with the ring (if I'm correct how freedom of movement has been implemented).

I realize that the Blade advantage is the increased dual-weapon fighting ability, but the single and double-handed proficiencies confer double the critical threat range, which could be powerful with a greatsword, Offensive Spin, and a high Strength bonus. I'm not saying that it is superior to dual-wielding, but there is an advantage there, and I'd be curious how the DPS would be calculated.

I agree with the single-handed proficiency as the AC bonus would be nice to have, and am torn between that and double-handed (admittedly, I'm thinking Caromyr in the long, longterm).

Using the Claw is something I hadn't considered, and I may do just that. Regarding strength, I was thinking about starting out with a score of 14 (15 with tome) so he could use a greatsword (if I go that route). With the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength and later on, the Girdles, I'd feel like it would be a waste to start with 18 Strength.

DJKajuru

You know, I've always loved dual wielding that short sword with zero speed and an extra attack along with the scimitar which also gives an extra attack - you get 4 attacks per round , which suits the blade's quick strategies.

theperm222

You don't NEED 18 intelligence, you can learn as many spells as you want by just quaffing a potion of genius. So accumulate scrolls once you hit the max based on your intelligence, quaff one potion and memorize away. Besides, you are probably NEVER going to use every spell in each level. Many of them are useless. If you are concerned about spell failure... quick save before memorizing. I don't think I've ever failed anyways. The blade I just rolled has 16... will have 17 with the tome after he gets to BG.

theperm222

Also, an Elf cannot be a bard... only humans and half-elves in BG, so unfortunately, no +1 to long swords and long bows... but hey, at least you can romo Viccy in BG2!

smeagolheart

Deucetipher said:

I recommend modifying Dorotea.cre before you begin to remove the undroppable flag from her elven chain, as that is really the only decent protection spellcasting bards can utilize.

Can you upload that so we can stuff it in our overrides? (god that doesn't sound good lol)

ZanathKariashi

High Int is pointless. The only real benefit is chance to learn. If you're a blade you only need a handful of spells per level, well under the spell limit 13 provides, and you can always remove them when a spell has outlived it's usefulness.

18/18/16/13/??/15+ (I usually try to go for 13 wisdom, if at all possible, you end up with a decent wis after 3 manuals which helps offset the lore penalty slightly). Charisma is a waste, since 15 is enough for the tome+ algernon/nymph cloak to hit 18.

Shortsword * (easy +2 SS), two weapon * (Fight with a buckler till level 4), lvl 4 two weapon **, level 8 * Scimitar (about the time you can get a pair of Rashad's Talon or Drizzt's gear if that's your thing). lvl 12 in the sequel two weapon ***. After that...whatever.

This sets you up for dual-wielding Speed weapons the instant you hit SoA, for 5 attacks while in offensive spin (10 under IH, or 8-9 (gear depending) if they fix the Offensive spin stacking with IH bug).


Are you sure about that Dorotea? According to NI, it's already droppable.

@ Toanwrath When importing a Bard from BG1 into BG2 and making them a blade, it will sometimes allow you to specialize in any bladed weapons (except short swords and daggers), but only during creation. Though just like the swashbuckler, you don't get the extra 1/2 attack from it.

Also at certain level modifiers Haer'daelis has ** in both short swords and longswords.

Dragonspear

@ZanathKariashi

Its not droppable at the moment, but its supposed to be.

Darkovan

I was reading around recently while thinking up a new build and found a post reguarding Blades that was unrelated to what i was looking for (and so i dont have it bookmarked and cbf history).
But it was talking about offensive and defensive spin.
The thread mentioned that although offensive spin does NOT stack with the spell haste it DOES stack with boots of speed or Improved haste (working as intended or not that is how it currently functions) from what i read anyway, i havn't tested myself.

The thread also mentioned that at epic levels the epic ability improved barb song gives a blade the same song as any other bard eliminating the blade song disadvantage. You also pick from the Thief pool of Epic abilities meaning that you will also be able to take Use Any Item and Time Stop trap and evasion and so forth.

It also mentioned that giving your blade the spell buff Freedom or a ring of free action (or same effect) would allow them to move during defensive spin (OP!).
It also mentioned that by late TOB it wasn't unusual for a blade to be able to buff their ac to -30 with defensive spin + epic lootz + mage defensive spells, meaning that almost everything in the game will only hit them on rolls of 20 and even then the damage is absorbed by Stone skin making them effectivly one of if not the best melee tank in the game.

Oxford_Guy

theperm222 said:

Also, an Elf cannot be a bard... only humans and half-elves in BG, so unfortunately, no +1 to long swords and long bows... but hey, at least you can romo Viccy in BG2!

Indeed, half-elf is the best options, due to the 30% charm/sleep resistance, bonus to pickpockets (though this skill is nerfed on the blade kit) and, for what it's worth, infravision.

Oxford_Guy

Dragonspear said:

@ZanathKariashi

Its not droppable at the moment, but its supposed to be.

The elven chain? You can CLUA it in (or use Shadowkeeper) after the encounter where its's meant to drop, though.

Eldoth_Kron

Trying my first solo run with a Blade, and roughly after 15 mins of stat rolling I got these. Haven't decided on how to distribute proficiency points. Maybe one to ranged (bow since arrows are more common than bolts as loot?) and one to melee weapon. Or is it better to put the other point into sword and shield for buckler AC boost? Please tell me what you think!

Oxford_Guy

Darkovan said:

16-18 on the int, pref 18 if u want to play the character again in BG2:EE

All the weapon options you have mentioned would work, however, the duel-wield is an attempt to make up for the lack of attacks/round that are inherent to bards/thieves.

Eldoth_Kron said:

Trying my first solo run with a Blade, and roughly after 15 mins of stat rolling I got these. Haven't decided on how to distribute proficiency points. Maybe one to ranged (bow since arrows are more common than bolts as loot?) and one to melee weapon. Or is it better to put the other point into sword and shield for buckler AC boost? Please tell me what you think!

Why 11 Wisdom?

Also why human, RP reasons? Half-elfs are slightly better, get 30% resistance to sleep/charm, Infravision (wow!), but are also slightly easier to roll good stats for.

I'd go scimitars (decent choice now in BG2, and you can get a +1 Wakazashi early) and longbows (though maybe shortbows - faster, you can get a +1 one sooner and they're better for BG2), then dual-wield x 2

BTW the neutral evil Familiar is nice, can cast Glitterdust x 1/day, Glass Dust x 2/day