Best weapon slots for assassin build?

terence1923

What are the best weapons slots to allocate the two points I have available in character creation?

claudius

Dagger is pretty good with the dagger of venom. It does 1 pt poison damage a round for 15 rounds and it seems to work on most things. I was surprised it worked on a flesh golem. Not sure about undead. I saw the dagger of venom used on a youtube speed and solo run which made me think it was good. I am not sure if it is the best however. Darts give you 3 (+1/2 for specialization) attacks which is nice since with the specialization each dart is +2 damage. Also none of the npcs I am aware of uses darts so magical dart drops go to some use whereas npcs will probably use arrow, bolt, or bullet ammo. So that takes care of having a melee and missile weapon.

Hopefully there will be more discussion to learn from.

ZanathKariashi

* Darts, * Dagger, lvl 4 * single weapon style, lvl 8 * Quarterstaff, in the sequel at lvl 12 * 2-handed weapon style. Anything else is at your discretion. Early on your ability to stealth will be heavily impaired as well as x2 is a pretty crappy BS even with 18 str (at 19 however...), so you're better off slinging poisoned darts at the enemy (save it for a big group or a tough enemy since you only get a few uses per day and it only lasts 24 seconds). Darts also benefit from str damage, so once you hit 19+ str, they can deal out some ridiculous damage on enemies you can't or don't want to backstab. The dagger of venom is pretty pricy and should be bought after the shadow armor (the best armor you can use, + aids hiding), but once acquired the bonus damage will allow for early hit/fade before acquiring the boots of speed (hopefully by then you'll have points enough in MS to spare losing the boots of stealth).

Assassins can't specialize, they get a built in +1 hit/damage (ALMOST specialization, 1 damage less (but unlike specialization IS multiplied on a backstab), and non-warriors don't gain the extra half-attack anyway (says so at the bottom of the Swashbuckler description)).

claudius

Scimitars and dual wield might be good come the expansion as there are two scimitars with extra attacks and assassinate High Level Ability (HLA). 3 attacks. Just another option. I am not sure if assassins can dual wield though. But two attacks is good with x7 sneak damage.

Oxford_Guy

ZanathKariashi said:

* Darts, * Dagger, lvl 4 * single weapon style, lvl 8 * Quarterstaff, in the sequel at lvl 12 * 2-handed weapon style. Anything else is at your discretion. Early on your ability to stealth will be heavily impaired as well as x2 is a pretty crappy BS even with 18 str (at 19 however...), so you're better off slinging poisoned darts at the enemy (save it for a big group or a tough enemy since you only get a few uses per day and it only lasts 24 seconds). Darts also benefit from str damage,

Darts don't benefit from strength damage bonuses in BGEE, in fact AFAIK no thrown weapons do anymore (possibly slings), not even throwing axes, which did in BG2.

ZanathKariashi

Are you sure? someone was complaining about it (Dorn mowing down people with 10-13 damage darts) in the bugs section a few days ago, so I fired up BG1 and they also had str bonus, and then I dug out my 2nd Ed players handbook and indeed darts are supposed to benefit from any str bonus (as well as other thrown weapons). So if they are not, it's a bug.


The Scarlet Ninja-to can't backstab or Assassinate. You'd have to use Kuudane (short sword) and Belm, which are only +2 which limits the pool of enemies worth hitting with an assassinate. If you drop a time stop trap, the thac0 penalty doesn't matter as all hits connect during time stop (though ALL thieves and bards should be able to dual-wield with only a -1 off-hand penalty if they have 17+ dex...but it's not implemented).

Prince_of_Lies

@claudius Any character may dual-wield, but will incur penalties if they did not invest proficiency points in two-weapon fighting.

@ZanathKariashi A thief may backstab with any weapon they are proficient with (as a single classed thief/thief kit).

@terence1923 It's mostly personal preference for what weapon(s) you use.

-Prince_of_Lies

claudius

@Prince_of_Lies

I am pretty sure a thief can only backstab with thief weapons. For example they cannot backstab with two handed swords which they could become proficient via fighter multi-class.

But if you mean pure thieves like the original poster has then you're right.

Nukenin

I prefer the first slot for my assassins, but some like the second slot.

I guess the really weird ones stick a weapon in the off-hand slot too. Crazies.

*dives under a turnip cart*

I've never actually played an assassin in the Baldur's Gate series.

Prince_of_Lies

@claudius, Sorry, yeah, I was talking about pure thieves.

But thieves can backstab with ninjatō.

Oxford_Guy

ZanathKariashi said:

Are you sure? someone was complaining about it (Dorn mowing down people with 10-13 damage darts) in the bugs section a few days ago, so I fired up BG1 and they also had str bonus, and then I dug out my 2nd Ed players handbook and indeed darts are supposed to benefit from any str bonus (as well as other thrown weapons). So if they are not, it's a bug.

Yes, I'm sure, it seems slings (or their bullets) are the only ranged weapons to add strength damage in BGEE - that's right throwing axes and daggers don't either! An not sure if this is bugged or intended behaviour, though.

Oxford_Guy

@ZanathKariashi - About ranged weapons and strength damage (or lack of it, for all but slings) in BGEE, see: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/199572/

Oxford_Guy

Darts are still good for an assassin, though, because you can get 3 poison attacks per round (also more 3 chances for a critical hit) and +1 damage for each dart that hits

Staves are good in BG1 because of the staff of striking which gives awesome damage on backstabs, though it uses a charge each time it's used and you don't get it until quite late in the game, so is good only as a late game profiency.

Shortswords are also a solid choice, unless you have another NPC using these, as they're fast (more chance of hitting whilst still stealthed), you can get a +2 one very early on, and a +3 one later. The dagger of venom is excellent (+2 and poison), though is quite expensive, so not usually affordable until mid-game, and only does 3-6 base damage (as oppossed to 3-8 for the +2 short sword), you can also get an ordinary +2 dagger quite early on. Single weapon fighting style is also good, as you get a -1 AC buff and it doubles the critical hit chance to 19-20 with one pip. Avoid dual wield for an assassin, one pip is not worth it, it's hard enough to hit anyway as an assassion.

Elves make the best assassions IMHO as get +1THAC0 with all bows (apart from crossbows) and *all* swords (though need to test if this includes daggers, possibly not), get bonuses to stealth skills and can have 19 Dex. Halflings are also a solid choice - they also can have 19 Dex (but only 17 Str) and even beter thief bonuses, as well as the shorty con-based save bonuses, which are great.

ZanathKariashi

They can backstab with A ninja-to, but not THE scarlet ninja-to (monk only), because it's actually flagged as not-usable to backstab (as is the staff of the magi (BS lovers out there are really crying over that one)), since single-class thieves can't use those, without a ridiculously OP epic ability.

And you have 4 base attack when dual-wielding speed weapons, 8 under IH, 9 after UAI with the warrior-only bracers.

Oxford_Guy

ZanathKariashi said:

They can backstab with A ninja-to, but not THE scarlet ninja-to (monk only), because it's actually flagged as not-usable to backstab (as is the staff of the magi (BS lovers out there are really crying over that one)), since single-class thieves can't use those, without a ridiculously OP epic ability.

And you have 4 base attack when dual-wielding speed weapons, 8 under IH, 9 after UAI with the warrior-only bracers.

But Assassins can't put more then one pip into dual-wield, so get terrible to hit rolls, it's not like they have good THAC0 progression to start with, dual-wielding can also mess up backstabs, as you always atempt to backstab with the fastest weapon, which may be the one in your off-hand, compounding the problem.

szb

Dagger and single weapon style at start. I find that the -1AC and better chance of criticals are very nice at the start. Don't forget to bring throwing daggers with you for the early parts, 2 attacks/round and higher thac0 do to your dex will help a lot in the beginning.
Rest is up to you.

ZanathKariashi

Which is why you only do that during a time stop trap (always hit), while using assassinate (all attacks are considered backstabs, regardless of stealth/facing), under improved haste (up to 9 attacks, which equals about 63 attacks (~1071 damage) if the enemy can be backstabbed and both weapons can hit him...54 (~918) if only 1 can hit (using a non-speed main-hand + speed off-hand), or 49 (~833) if you ditch the speed weapons entirely..

Early on, you can use Belm for single weapon, since it deals a decent backstab and gives 2 base attacks for times when you can't hit and fade, however, once you acquire the staff of the ram, that will be your only choice non-assassination backstabs.

Oxford_Guy

ZanathKariashi said:

Which is why you only do that during a time stop trap (always hit), while using assassinate (all attacks are considered backstabs, regardless of stealth/facing), under improved haste (up to 9 attacks, which equals about 63 attacks if the enemy can be backstabbed and both weapons can hit him...54 if only 1 can hit (using a non-speed main-hand + speed off-hand), or 49 if you ditch the speed weapons entirely..

Ah I see! Thanks for the explanation, only useful very late in BG2, but still useful to know, thanks! :-)

Oxford_Guy

szb said:

Dagger and single weapon style at start. I find that the -1AC and better chance of criticals are very nice at the start. Don't forget to bring throwing daggers with you for the early parts, 2 attacks/round and higher thac0 do to your dex will help a lot in the beginning.
Rest is up to you.

BTW Elves don't get their +1 THAC0 with daggers, only with (all) swords (and bows), am not saying it's not worth using daggers if an elf assassin, but it's something to bear in mind

szb

Oxford_Guy said:

szb said:

Dagger and single weapon style at start. I find that the -1AC and better chance of criticals are very nice at the start. Don't forget to bring throwing daggers with you for the early parts, 2 attacks/round and higher thac0 do to your dex will help a lot in the beginning.
Rest is up to you.

BTW Elves don't get their +1 THAC0 with daggers, only with (all) swords (and bows), am not saying it's not worth using daggers if an elf assassin, but it's something to bear in mind

I tought it was only long swords not all swords.

Oxford_Guy

szb said:

Oxford_Guy said:

szb said:

Dagger and single weapon style at start. I find that the -1AC and better chance of criticals are very nice at the start. Don't forget to bring throwing daggers with you for the early parts, 2 attacks/round and higher thac0 do to your dex will help a lot in the beginning.
Rest is up to you.

BTW Elves don't get their +1 THAC0 with daggers, only with (all) swords (and bows), am not saying it's not worth using daggers if an elf assassin, but it's something to bear in mind

I tought it was only long swords not all swords.

In BGEE (and BG1 and BG2) it's *all* swords, I tested it again this morning. In PnP rules should just be long and short swords really, though

Prince_of_Lies

Oxford_Guy said:

In BGEE (and BG1 and BG2) it's *all* swords, I tested it again this morning. In PnP rules should just be long and short swords really, though

That's new.

Oxford_Guy

Prince_of_Lies said:

Oxford_Guy said:

In BGEE (and BG1 and BG2) it's *all* swords, I tested it again this morning. In PnP rules should just be long and short swords really, though

That's new.

It was certainly like this in BG2 and BGT and BG Tutu, not 100% sure about the original BG1, as it's a while since I've played it

Prince_of_Lies

@Oxford_Guy It used to be long swords for BG2 and TOB. I remember, because I used to be a big fan of the elf assassin.

Now I go human, for the Viconia romance. :P

ZanathKariashi

IN BG1 it was just Longswords and longbows and didn't show up in the sheet, it was just a hidden +1. They had to dig around with modding tools to even prove it existed.

Oxford_Guy

Prince_of_Lies said:

@Oxford_Guy It used to be long swords for BG2 and TOB. I remember, because I used to be a big fan of the elf assassin.

Now I go human, for the Viconia romance. :P

BTW Halflings can also romance Viconia AFAIK!

At least in BGEE elves (both sexes!) can romance Dorn (and presumably in BG2EE)

Oxford_Guy

ZanathKariashi said:

IN BG1 it was just Longswords and longbows and didn't show up in the sheet, it was just a hidden +1. They had to dig around with modding tools to even prove it existed.

Interesting! Mind you in vanilla BG1 I don't think elves actually got the 90% charm/sleep resistance they were meant to.

BTW regarding bows, in BGEE elves get the +1 THAC0 bonus for short bows, long bows and composite bows currently

Prince_of_Lies

Oxford_Guy said:

BTW Halflings can also romance Viconia AFAIK!

Halflings don't make very intimidating assassins though. :P

And interesting, I didn't know that Dorn was romanceable by both genders. (Not that I tried)

szb

Prince_of_Lies said:

Oxford_Guy said:

BTW Halflings can also romance Viconia AFAIK!

Halflings don't make very intimidating assassins though. :P

Well thats an advantage no? Noone suspectrs a cute little halfling them BAM! they are dead.

Oxford_Guy

Prince_of_Lies said:

Oxford_Guy said:

BTW Halflings can also romance Viconia AFAIK!

Halflings don't make very intimidating assassins though. :P

Indeed! I like elves for Assasins, partly because of the the extra +1 THAC0 with swords and bows - Assassins need all the help they can get to hit reliably!

And interesting, I didn't know that Dorn was romanceable by both genders. (Not that I tried)

Me neither, but this has been widely mentioned on the forum. In my current main BGEE game I have a neutral evil female elf fighter/mage who intends to romance Dorn.

BTW there are no racial restictions to romances with the new NPCs in BGEE

cbarchuk

I'm looking at making an elf assassin for my next play through. Should I use a short bow and short sword to get the elves racial bonus or should I use darts for the 3 APR and the dagger of venom?