There is a fine line between good DLC and bad ones. I want meaty content added like someone mentioned above with trials of the luremaster.
I don't want to see weapon packs for $3.99. Reskins for 1.99.
I wouldn't mind things such as a new npc character, with unique story throughout the BG story. One that EXPANDS on the classic story. Including a new kit and lore... bundled with new items. $4.99. That could be cool.
I am going to wait and see further details on the DLC before i Judge. I am most worried about having to use another client and poorly done DLC.
In fact. I might even be receptive if a certain purchase of copy of BGEE would include all future DLC releases for free with purchase.
They will NOT remove existing contect from the original game, on the contrary, in BG:EE they ADD more areas and storylines.
Future DLC will include new adventures, and in a game such as BG you can not add just one empty area.. they will have to do something like Trials of the Luremaster, which alone add alot of gameplay hours and thats well worth the money.
Lets assume they will be doing NPC only DLC.. or Items only DLC.. who will purchase it??? its something that any modder can do. I prefer to call it Downloadable "Mini Expansion" or DME
Everyone here Finished BG Saga more than once, and everyone here know that after sometime you search for mods that will add a little bit more to the game, in order to play it again. if they gonna expand the game further in the future, regulary, all the better!!
As you said @mch202 DLCs of minor things are not a good idea, this is a fact, as if we can mod the game why would we buy something that we can get free as unnoficial mods. Well put, indeed!
The best way to deal with it, would be raising the cost for BG:EE and release the DLCs for free. People are usually ready to pay a bit more for a game they love, and free DLCs are good PR.
I don't think so @Geselle. From BeamDog's view, I'd rather sell an apple a day for a year then sell a bunch of apple in one go. Who needs bunch of apple in one go (apart maniacs that plays the same game for the last twelve years... Only handful of people, or mac-lovers) ? The high initial price will chase people away, that is a fact.
Another fact is that there is seemingly a wish from BeamDog to open the market of BGEE to new players. Ones who haven't played it yet. Those new players will probably only be interested at first at "classic" BGEE. To pursue my analogy : the taste of the apple. They need to taste at least once the game to get addicted, and to want to buy more apples. Then only they fall in despair and install bunch of mods and DLC (dramatic music in background).
To open the market, you need attractiveness. So low price, and the possibility to go further if that is your wish, but you are free of your choice. Economically speaking, that is the way to go. At least, it has been the modern way to go since few years, it's based on a Korean model.
Sorry if I break some naive hearts here But BeamDog wanna have some moneys, and frankly, who wouldn't ?
And here starts the problem, DLC has a bad reputation for a reason, because big companies either sell overpriced junk, so many people wait for a complete package, or they sell already existing content as a "bonus". And Trent makes it appear as if they join the overpriced junk train. I don't want to accuse beamdog of anything, but all friends, which i have asked, noted that they don't like the fact that BG:EE is gonna have some DLCs. In a friend's words: "What the fuck? Now they gonna ruin the legacy of Baldur's Gate, too?" And to him BG:EE is another cash cow to be milked, and DLCs just prove his point. And what do they want to implement? new characters? new quests? Many things might be covered by mods,especially since Beamdog can't expand original content (and hell, what an outcry would occur if they would release a DLC expanding vanilla content). and those things make people ask, why didn't they implement it in the first place? Its an Enhanced Edition, and now we have to enhance the enhanced edition?! I'm not saying beamdog is gonna continue this farce called DLC, but I haven't met any guy, that preferred a DLC over a full scale expansion. On the other hand, another expansion to BG wouldn't make sense. And don't talk about new markets. This is utter bullshit, considering these markets ruined top down RPGs (Action RPGs, MMOs, FPS have a much bigger audience), and last time i heard from a company trying to reach for a new audience they ruined their game for the base audience (talking about a german RPG called Gothic). This game will most likely be a niche game, for those gamers, who loved the original game. Sure the baldursgate.com servers were catching fire, the day they announced BG:EE, proving there is a big interest in the BG series, but you will lose a certain amount by adapting to modern methods of game marketing and nowhere near all the people who checked the website are gonna buy it too.
Wait. You really think BGEE will be bought only by hardcore players ? Of course they want to reach new audience. It's the whole point of making an overhaul of an old game, and release it on several support. And I have lots of interested friends. Heretics that have never played the game but who kept hearing me saying it was best stuff of all time. But then again, I have loads of geeks in my friends, it might not be representative of a real population.
Furthermore...There is no DLC for BGEE yet. On what basis do you affirm that they will be junk ? On previous experience, with different companies, and games with no modder community. (Actually, is there a game with both modders and DLC ?) And I don't agree with all your arguments. Some DLC are okay. You probably have had some bad experiences, but don't make it a generality.
If you are fine with mods, then don't buy DLCs. It's not gonna ruin your game if I buy it, would it ? No original content will be made DLC. That was perfectly clear on tweets.
Like someone said sooner, TotSC was like 3 DLC. Durlargs tower and the two islands. I was very happy of it. Trent twitted, new storylines, new npcs... That sounds like TotSC to me. Did they even have new npcs ? I don't think so.
@geselle I personally think that Medillen 100% Right.
First thing: BG:EE will include ALL the old contect++++ new areas, so you already get 300+ hours of gameplay,without any DLC, so I dont see how DLC could potentially ruin anything..
Second: as @Medillen said, High price will chase new players away, DLC is first thing depends on BG:EE succsses, if BG:EE wont sell as expected, they will not waste their time on DLC/Extra Contect, what will happen if they will put higher price and the game wont sell good?? in that situation you paid more for BG:EE and will not get any Free DLC.
Third: Beamdog have deadline for shipping the game, Im sure they have alot of Ideas of furthur expansions, but if they will make them now we will not see BG:EE anytime soon. and again, if the game will be a succsses, they will make more expansions, and an expansion in BG require alot of work - Modeling new areas, writing the TEXT ( bg have alot of text you know unlike any other game, and writing text and good story takes TIME --> MONEY) - I dont see why Beamdog would pay someone to make this in order to release it for free.. answer honestly, DO YOU WORK FOR FREE???
Fourth: You will get Ultra Big Game, no body put a gun to your head and make you to buy any DLC, you dont want?? dont buy, I promise you that the gameplay wont be ruined by that, its not DA:O.
and one last thing, Beamdog and @TrentOster decided to enhance the game because the love of the game! Im sure that they are not doing that in order to empty your wallet.
as TrentOster said:
"DLC=Downloadable Content, not furry earrings +3. The big guys have overcooked the term with badness. New BG storylines, New characters."
New storyline new characters, same counts for Fallout: New Vegas DLCs, Dragon Age DLCs none particularly good. And all developers love their games, it is their work, so again its nothing outstanding
DLC is a controversial thing for sure since as others noted we gamers have been burned before by lousy DLCs before. There is also the perception of from a gamer's point of view of bait-and-switch with paying a price for a game, then paying more to make it work.
Again, I'm cautiously optimistic what I've heard so far has sounded promising.
@Medillen You basicly wrote what I wanted to say. We've all seen the Horse Armour DLC and the alternative costumes DLC and the Dime-a-dozen weapon DLC, all of which are crap and cheap moneygrubbing. But New Vegas had some very good DLC attached, Fallout 3 pretty ok DLC (on par with the game) and I thought Lair of the Shadowbroker for ME2 was certainly worth the few bucks I put down for it (it being the only DLC that was worth it for ME2).
It doesn't have to be bad and if you don't like it, don't buy it. The suggestion that they should make the game itself more expensive but the DLC free is ludicrous and immediately contradicts the point of not wanting to pay for the DLC; you are, up front and you don't have a choice in which you like and which you don't.
It doesn't have to be bad and if you don't like it, don't buy it. The suggestion that they should make the game itself more expensive but the DLC free is ludicrous and immediately contradicts the point of not wanting to pay for the DLC; you are, up front and you don't have a choice in which you like and which you don't.
This issue will always come down to intent. Post-release content vs the withholding of content. BG:EE aside, I see no reason that modern games with years of development time and more than adequate budgets need a follow-up stream of paid DLC over the next three years after release. There's only one reason for this, it was planned this way, content was withheld in order to take small chunks of money from their loyal fan base repeatedly to maximize their profits. A game is a consumer product, it should be as complete as possible at the time of purchase, while still allowing for continuations in the future in the form of sequels and potentially large-scale TotSC/ToB style expansions. You wouldn't go to a bookstore and pay $10 for the first 5 chapters of a 20 chapter book, and then go back in every month to pay $5 for each new chapter as it's released. This is why a lot of people have a reaction along the lines of, "Well, I guess I'll just wait for the Collecter's Edition or Gold or Diamond or Mithril/Adamantium Alloy edition to finally be released with truly all of the content that is a part of this game." So no, I don't think it's necessarily ludicrous to want to pay more for a complete product instead of having to collect pieces over time. I know that they are "optional," but for fans of BG and this dev team, they (/we) will want to try everything that they release and likely will; and therefore (I think) have a right to state our preferences of how the product should best be released, as do you.
Perhaps my "five chapters of a book" analogy was a bit too hyperbolic, but it is the same feeling associated, since there's no real way to know exactly how much content is going to be released as a part of this game after you've bought the game, and the trend seems to be a lot of post release content over a long period of time. I agree that it will come down to how they are applying this and what their intentions are, as there is obviously nothing inherently bad about adding something to a game after it's been released. It has, however, proven itself to have the capacity to be quite annoying/frustrating more often than not (at least in my opinion) over the years.
And to reiterate that which I previously mentioned on this thread, I am sure that the Overhaul guys will do their best to make the DLC as high-quality as possible and the process for attaining it as painless as possible, but this doesn't change the fact that I see it as a poor business model. Not for BG:EE or even BG:EE2 necessarily which both get passes as far as I'm concerned due to their being the first Overhaul releases, time constraints, etc. I'm simply worried about this for future releases for the aforementioned reasons.
dlc is not that bad, unless it's clearly cut from the game... dlc keeps the game alive and allows, those who want, to keep supporting the game. The rest can wait for the goty version but really overhaul is not doing this to rip BG apart and sell as dlc guys... if there is dlc I bet its content that is worth every cent!
DLC is bad when the game has more than 13 years of existence and most of any ideas they can get will eventually reflex on the cpyrights of a unnoficial modder.
If they make DLCS on the right fashion, making huge changes and giving HUGE new contents (and only this would be an acceptable DLC) they will be limited by an border, the game can't go 1000 hours of game play for example or the plot can be lost or misplaced betwen the extension of a too large content.
For another side, if they make the crap DLCs, the +item DLC, new portraits DLC, new NPC DLC... that will be extremly bad received in a game as Baldur's Gate. That will happen cos we lived 13 years of game modders on this game, a lot of new contents for free, and suddently we have to pay for things we always had for free. What they gonna do to compete with the unnoficial free Mods/DLCs? Forbidden ppl of make new content (some ppl would even feel this as an act of virtual war or challenge)?
They’re not going to forbid people to make new content, they’ve already said they’re attempting to make the game as mod friendly as possible. And it is this recognition of the modding community that instills faith in me that the DLC stuff will be decent because they KNOW they are competing against modders that allows the gamer to download many of these things for free, these guys are pretty intelligent people, they know that the BG community, for the most part, are savvy customers and so they know that their content will have to be good enough to sell. It wouldn’t surprise me if they do implement new portraits, paper dolls, NPCs, items etc but these will most likely be free or bundled together with say, a quality new adventure with hours more gaming. “Why would they implement free DLC?” They MIGHT do this because they see this (particularly portraits and paper dolls) as part of the game that they didn’t have the time to implement before release date and so have budgeted accordingly. I think when it comes to these guys and DLC the main reasoning behind their actions is most likely to be time constraints.
Like @Medillen said, I think the main target audience of BGEE is not only the existing BG player fanbase, nor the "savvy" players. The game is even planned to be released on Ipad.
I think the existing BG popularity may act as boost, but that the target audience is new players to the BG and 2D RPG universe.
My unfounded guess is that most people who have bought Baldur's Gate originally around 1998 have since moved on. Only the hardcore active fans are still around but I don't think they represent a so big number of potential customers.
So while they may care about the existing community, I think it's certainly not their primary care. Of course that's just wild speculation from me. But anyway unless anyone posting here has real up to date statistic about the potential BGEE audience, and know what Overhaul Games really have in mind, we're all speculating ^^
Honestly, ToSC was basically 3 DLCs tied together by a token plot, if the DLCs are like that then I'm fine with it. We simply don't have enough information to judge at this point, so I'm inclined to give Beamdog the benefit of the doubt. I'd like to be able to play through some of the classic PnP dungeons/adventures as a Bhaalspawn.
Though the Tomb of Horrors DLC might have to wait until ToB:EE :P
@kamuizin@Communard DLC they are planning to add don't have to be about you playing Bhaalspawn. New adventures with new protagonist. In the end you'd have a launcher for IE games and from there you pick which adventure you want to play~
Talking about an adventure with Gorion. Reliving Sarevok's story would be a most interesting story by itself, giving more insight into his story. In my opinion Sarevok was the most impressive antagonist of the whole BG-series
DLC is a way we can keep the initial price of the game low for specific markets while still making it possible to generate new content. If we didn't do DLC, the iPad version would likely be $20+ Since there haven't been many iOS titles at $20, we're scared enough around the $10 price point. Content-wise, I think most people will be pretty happy with what we produce.
@TrentOster Alright, so enough words wasted, now your actions will speak for themselves. I'll be happy to see for the first time a DLC, that isn't a ripoff. But my expectations, and i guess I'll speak for many BG fans, are very high.
I agree with Trent on the dlcs. But the idea that the ipad version is already causing this much trouble is not really welcome, you know I would ditch the ipad version completly but that's just me.
By trouble I mean helping decide prices etc... but again, I understand Trent, some say tablets are generating alot of money and if that is true they should make that money.
Me as a PC gamer care mostly that those dlc are important story arcs and quests. Anyway if trent says we'll be happy with the content lets wait and see guys, there's no reason to doubt them.
@TrentOster wait wait wait. You try to justify the new DLC with the NEW PRICE of the game in the Ipad version? Are you serious? You really said that the idea of create a new content of the mythical game Baldur's Gate is to bring down price of the Ipad version? I can't believe it man. OMG right now you lose a new customer.
Comments
edit: google traductor ftw:
The subscription like wow is just missing and everything will be perfect (joke)
I don't want to see weapon packs for $3.99. Reskins for 1.99.
I wouldn't mind things such as a new npc character, with unique story throughout the BG story. One that EXPANDS on the classic story. Including a new kit and lore... bundled with new items. $4.99. That could be cool.
I am going to wait and see further details on the DLC before i Judge. I am most worried about having to use another client and poorly done DLC.
In fact. I might even be receptive if a certain purchase of copy of BGEE would include all future DLC releases for free with purchase.
Future DLC will include new adventures, and in a game such as BG you can not add just one empty area.. they will have to do something like Trials of the Luremaster, which alone add alot of gameplay hours and thats well worth the money.
Lets assume they will be doing NPC only DLC.. or Items only DLC.. who will purchase it??? its something that any modder can do. I prefer to call it Downloadable "Mini Expansion" or DME
Everyone here Finished BG Saga more than once, and everyone here know that after sometime you search for mods that will add a little bit more to the game, in order to play it again. if they gonna expand the game further in the future, regulary, all the better!!
Another fact is that there is seemingly a wish from BeamDog to open the market of BGEE to new players. Ones who haven't played it yet. Those new players will probably only be interested at first at "classic" BGEE. To pursue my analogy : the taste of the apple. They need to taste at least once the game to get addicted, and to want to buy more apples. Then only they fall in despair and install bunch of mods and DLC (dramatic music in background).
To open the market, you need attractiveness. So low price, and the possibility to go further if that is your wish, but you are free of your choice. Economically speaking, that is the way to go. At least, it has been the modern way to go since few years, it's based on a Korean model.
Sorry if I break some naive hearts here
I'm ambivalent to DLC, as long as there aren't annoying popup banners or in-game ads pestering me buy something.
And what do they want to implement? new characters? new quests? Many things might be covered by mods,especially since Beamdog can't expand original content (and hell, what an outcry would occur if they would release a DLC expanding vanilla content). and those things make people ask, why didn't they implement it in the first place? Its an Enhanced Edition, and now we have to enhance the enhanced edition?!
I'm not saying beamdog is gonna continue this farce called DLC, but I haven't met any guy, that preferred a DLC over a full scale expansion. On the other hand, another expansion to BG wouldn't make sense.
And don't talk about new markets. This is utter bullshit, considering these markets ruined top down RPGs (Action RPGs, MMOs, FPS have a much bigger audience), and last time i heard from a company trying to reach for a new audience they ruined their game for the base audience (talking about a german RPG called Gothic). This game will most likely be a niche game, for those gamers, who loved the original game. Sure the baldursgate.com servers were catching fire, the day they announced BG:EE, proving there is a big interest in the BG series, but you will lose a certain amount by adapting to modern methods of game marketing and nowhere near all the people who checked the website are gonna buy it too.
Furthermore...There is no DLC for BGEE yet. On what basis do you affirm that they will be junk ? On previous experience, with different companies, and games with no modder community. (Actually, is there a game with both modders and DLC ?) And I don't agree with all your arguments. Some DLC are okay. You probably have had some bad experiences, but don't make it a generality.
If you are fine with mods, then don't buy DLCs. It's not gonna ruin your game if I buy it, would it ? No original content will be made DLC. That was perfectly clear on tweets.
Like someone said sooner, TotSC was like 3 DLC. Durlargs tower and the two islands. I was very happy of it. Trent twitted, new storylines, new npcs... That sounds like TotSC to me. Did they even have new npcs ? I don't think so.
First thing: BG:EE will include ALL the old contect++++ new areas, so you already get 300+ hours of gameplay,without any DLC, so I dont see how DLC could potentially ruin anything..
Second: as @Medillen said, High price will chase new players away, DLC is first thing depends on BG:EE succsses, if BG:EE wont sell as expected, they will not waste their time on DLC/Extra Contect, what will happen if they will put higher price and the game wont sell good?? in that situation you paid more for BG:EE and will not get any Free DLC.
Third: Beamdog have deadline for shipping the game, Im sure they have alot of Ideas of furthur expansions, but if they will make them now we will not see BG:EE anytime soon. and again, if the game will be a succsses, they will make more expansions, and an expansion in BG require alot of work - Modeling new areas, writing the TEXT ( bg have alot of text you know unlike any other game, and writing text and good story takes TIME --> MONEY) - I dont see why Beamdog would pay someone to make this in order to release it for free.. answer honestly, DO YOU WORK FOR FREE???
Fourth: You will get Ultra Big Game, no body put a gun to your head and make you to buy any DLC, you dont want?? dont buy, I promise you that the gameplay wont be ruined by that, its not DA:O.
and one last thing, Beamdog and @TrentOster decided to enhance the game because the love of the game! Im sure that they are not doing that in order to empty your wallet.
as TrentOster said:
"DLC=Downloadable Content, not furry earrings +3. The big guys have overcooked the term with badness. New BG storylines, New characters."
enough said...
And all developers love their games, it is their work, so again its nothing outstanding
Again, I'm cautiously optimistic what I've heard so far has sounded promising.
You basicly wrote what I wanted to say.
We've all seen the Horse Armour DLC and the alternative costumes DLC and the Dime-a-dozen weapon DLC, all of which are crap and cheap moneygrubbing.
But New Vegas had some very good DLC attached, Fallout 3 pretty ok DLC (on par with the game) and I thought Lair of the Shadowbroker for ME2 was certainly worth the few bucks I put down for it (it being the only DLC that was worth it for ME2).
It doesn't have to be bad and if you don't like it, don't buy it. The suggestion that they should make the game itself more expensive but the DLC free is ludicrous and immediately contradicts the point of not wanting to pay for the DLC; you are, up front and you don't have a choice in which you like and which you don't.
So, $10 for a basic 'enhanced' edition, plus any further modules as DLC, that sounds great!
Perhaps my "five chapters of a book" analogy was a bit too hyperbolic, but it is the same feeling associated, since there's no real way to know exactly how much content is going to be released as a part of this game after you've bought the game, and the trend seems to be a lot of post release content over a long period of time. I agree that it will come down to how they are applying this and what their intentions are, as there is obviously nothing inherently bad about adding something to a game after it's been released. It has, however, proven itself to have the capacity to be quite annoying/frustrating more often than not (at least in my opinion) over the years.
And to reiterate that which I previously mentioned on this thread, I am sure that the Overhaul guys will do their best to make the DLC as high-quality as possible and the process for attaining it as painless as possible, but this doesn't change the fact that I see it as a poor business model. Not for BG:EE or even BG:EE2 necessarily which both get passes as far as I'm concerned due to their being the first Overhaul releases, time constraints, etc. I'm simply worried about this for future releases for the aforementioned reasons.
If they make DLCS on the right fashion, making huge changes and giving HUGE new contents (and only this would be an acceptable DLC) they will be limited by an border, the game can't go 1000 hours of game play for example or the plot can be lost or misplaced betwen the extension of a too large content.
For another side, if they make the crap DLCs, the +item DLC, new portraits DLC, new NPC DLC... that will be extremly bad received in a game as Baldur's Gate. That will happen cos we lived 13 years of game modders on this game, a lot of new contents for free, and suddently we have to pay for things we always had for free. What they gonna do to compete with the unnoficial free Mods/DLCs? Forbidden ppl of make new content (some ppl would even feel this as an act of virtual war or challenge)?
I think the existing BG popularity may act as boost, but that the target audience is new players to the BG and 2D RPG universe.
My unfounded guess is that most people who have bought Baldur's Gate originally around 1998 have since moved on. Only the hardcore active fans are still around but I don't think they represent a so big number of potential customers.
So while they may care about the existing community, I think it's certainly not their primary care.
Of course that's just wild speculation from me. But anyway unless anyone posting here has real up to date statistic about the potential BGEE audience, and know what Overhaul Games really have in mind, we're all speculating ^^
Though the Tomb of Horrors DLC might have to wait until ToB:EE :P
In the end you'd have a launcher for IE games and from there you pick which adventure you want to play~
Eh, I find it hard to believe that any BGEE DLC would have you playing with anyone other than the bhaalspawn protagonist.
Yeah, they could add an adventure with Gorion, but it just wouldn't feel right to me.
Or it could be included on release.
-Trent
DLCs are helping the game to be covered periodic by review and preview sites AKA marketing for free.
By trouble I mean helping decide prices etc... but again, I understand Trent, some say tablets are generating alot of money and if that is true they should make that money.
Me as a PC gamer care mostly that those dlc are important story arcs and quests. Anyway if trent says we'll be happy with the content lets wait and see guys, there's no reason to doubt them.