Seriously, though, by the original PnP rules, neither multi-class nor dual-class can even specialize.
Dual-class characters can specialize, or go all the way to weapon grandmastery (introduced in the later books), provided you start as a fighter and advance all the way to the top before dual-classing.
I am currently playing a level 6 berserker through Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition. The berserker is simply amazing with all his immunities and bonus to damage. Furthermore, I get to wear armor, which is a lifesaver for the main character.
I did try to play a kensai through an "honest" playthrough of Baldur's Gate Trilogy, but I kept dying after leaving Candlekeep. Besides, max damage isn't really that powerful; a longsword deals 4.5 average damage and 8 max damage. You're only deal 3.5 more damage per hit with a longsword, 4.5 more damage per hit with a katana/greatsword, etc. I'd rather have Full Plate instead of 3.5 or 4.5 extra damage for BG:EE.
I'd say that the main advantage f/m have over Kensages (in BG1) is the ability to utilize missile weapons. Ranged combat is devastating in BG1. I agree with you that the kensai is better as a frontline combatant, but losing that flexibility has to be considered a minus.
@Deucetipher i agree with you, ranged combat is extremely potent in Vanilla. But i'd say it's only available for the first half of the game. Once you reach level 5+ with your party, melee characters become just as powerful. Still, it's up to you to figure out a good party composition that compensates for the Kensai's ranged inability. Kivan/Imoen are very good npc's to pair with.
Also bear in mind that, in order to get grandmastery + dual wield, you have to sacrifice any other weapon proficiency, bow included. So even if Kensai would be able to specialize in ranged weapons, i still wouldn't put any pips into bows/crossbows. And an unproficient ranged shooter isn't all that's cracked to be.
We're not playing PnP though, so it's kind of irrelevant. U can have Grandmastery before u dual into mage, so how would u propose the change? Once you dual, all your extra pips removed?
True, we aren't playing PnP. I'm just saying that by introducing True Grandmastery you are modding the game to make your character more powerful. If you can't justify that by pointing to the PnP rules for Grandmastery, how do you justify it?
I'm justifying it that it existed in Baldur's Gate 1 and since i view the whole series as a continuous trilogy, for consistency's sake, it should remain how it was in BG1. How do you justify multiclass grandmastery?
Multi class all the way, because dual-classing (unless just for a few initial fighter levels) is *so* tedious, I don't want to play the whole of BGEE with a class I don't really want to be, just so I can be über half-way through BG2EE
@Oxford_Guy you gotta go through the pain in order to reap the rewards! You kids and your instant gratification nowadays :P (i'm joking, i'm only 25 yr myself)
I'm justifying it that it existed in Baldur's Gate 1 and since i view the whole series as a continuous trilogy, for consistency's sake, it should remain how it was in BG1. How do you justify multiclass grandmastery?
I don't, I'm just saying that if you can mod the game to make Kensages more powerful, the same can be done for F/M's, at which we have, as you pointed out, opened the door to Shadowkeeper-y shenanigans that have nothing to do with how the classes perform in an unmodded setting.
@Oxford_Guy you gotta go through the pain in order to reap the rewards! You kids and your instant gratification nowadays :P (i'm joking, i'm only 25 yr myself)
I've just turned 43! :-)
BTW has anyone mentioned yet how the multi class gets both sets of HLAs?
@Oxford_Guy you're late to the party mate, it's been hotly debated over the last few pages, might wanna skim through it.
@Kaigen I guess what it comes down to is, where do we draw the line on changing things? Imo True Grandmastery stays quite "true" to the original spirit and intent of the game, so the line isn't drawn too far. Multiclass grandmastery is starting to push it though :P But i'm sure many people love having multiclass GM, which is why the mod option was implemented in the first place. And it's a single player game open to a lot of posibilities, you make your own universe, in which you deem what is acceptable or not. So by all means, get your multiclass GM and enjoy it :-)
BTW has anyone mentioned yet how the multi class gets both sets of HLAs?
Yep, and this is in large part why I've taken to preferring my Fighters multi-classed instead of dual classed. I like having a bushel of Greater Whirlwinds and Critical Strikes on hand. The exception is Fighter(Kensai)/Thieves, as Assassinate blows Greater Whirlwind out of the water against anything vulnerable to backstabs (and you can keep a couple of Improved Hastes on hand for backstab-immune foes). I'm more wishy-washy on Thief/Spellcaster combinations.
@AlexDeLarge When it comes to online discussions, I prefer to stick to an unmodded game (aside from bug fixes and maybe ease of use modifications. I'll be damned if I go back to stacks of 40 arrows.), and assume nothing has been changed, regardless of what mods I use in practice. That said, I hope they do decide to keep BG1-style Grandmastery for BG2EE, but until we find out one way or another, I'm going to assume base BG2 rules set.
@AlexDeLarge - for me it's not just about which is the most powerful (in fact both are very powerful combos, though they play somewhat differently), but which is the most fun to play throughout the series, and for me that's an elf fighter/mage, preferably evil :-)
@AlexDeLarge I just thought that was an important argument in favor of the f/m that no one had yet raised, especially in a hardcore run and doubly so in a solo. The various arrows give you additional tactical flexibility. I find meleeing with a kensai is risky in bg1, even with the shield amulet due to the inability to prevent critical hits.
Naturally, in a party setting the kensage is a bit better in SoA due to the fact that mages boss SoA, and the kensage is virtually equal to a single class mage in spellpower (depends on dual level, but you get the idea). Equally obviously, the f/m is better in ToB because of two pools of HLAs and level 9 spells.
Soloing, the f/m is better throughout, due to the improved tactical flexibility afforded by ranged combat, the ability to wear a helmet when a crit can end your hardcore run immediately, and especially the fact that the faster leveling mitigates the f/m's real weakness, lack of a sufficiently strong spellcaster in mage duels in SoA. It should be noted that soloing a kensage dramatically reduces choice in when to dual, as 13 is impractical.
On balance, I prefer the f/m in hardcore runs.
BTW, for anyone else, I am speaking about the game in hardcore terms because Alex introduced the opposing argument a couple of pages back.
Again, both have their advantages; I just prefer the f/m.
@Deucetipher (i'm tempted to call you Deuce, for practical reasons, but it doesn't sound very flattering :P)
Yes, my entire argument on why Kensage is superior to F/M was based on playing a full party game. For solo runs, definitely the multiclass version is way better.
P.S. I noticed you're doing a no reload run, saw you posting on the bioware forums. I'll join in as soon as SCS is released, and maybe another patch, seeing as there are still bugs in the game (i think its very hard to stop Sarevok from killing Belt in the Palace, also if your familiar dies, you die with it, etc.)
In the meantime, i want to finish a solo run with a F/M/T. Do you think i can win the Sarevok palace battle?
@AlexDeLarge Deuce is fine . My screen name is a play on a real-life moniker of mine I got playing highschool soccer: Goosetipher, a portmanteau of Gustavo and Christopher. Substituting the Deuce for Goose is just to amuse myself, as an online presence is sort of a secondary ecosystem.
I introduced the solo variant since you introduced the hardcore scs variant in support of the kensage. If that is going to be evidence for superiority of the kensage, I thought I'd make the f/m's best counterargument.
Your F/M/T shouldn't have any trouble (since you know what you're doing), especially if you're willing to cheese the final battle a bit. If one uses invisibility before speaking to Sarevok, the teleporting mage moves to the entrance, where he can be easily removed without alerting the others. Invis pots and sandthief gives you plenty of easy backstabs, and carrying a set of specialized arrows can make the battle go relatively smoothly. Wands are great, as you know, and can make up for a lot of a f/m/t's deficiencies.
The multiclass, however, will be a lot more fun to play. It's a fighter/mage from the get-go and all through the saga. Why, it's even been made easier by the addition of elven chain!
If you ignore the fact that the plain elven chain sucks in comparison to Robes of Archmagi.... same AC without the spell resistance and saving throw bonus of the robes. Really only useful for Bards who can't wear the robes. If they had made it at least Elven Chain + 1, it'd be more useful to fighter/mages and mage/thiefs...
Thanks Deuce! (i could get used to this) I'm actually pumped to start my solo run, I'll post my progress on the bioware thread if i go far. Wish me luck bro!
The poll is neck and neck, lol. I think that reflects that it is actually a close call. Comes down to personal preference, ultimately.
If what I want from the game is to enjoy both class skills simultaneously--to be both a Mage and Fighter--then, personally, I feel deprived by playing just a Kensai for 13 levels, and then just Mage for 14 levels, until I can enjoy both sets of skills at once. That's 27 levels that I'd have to play in order to begin enjoying what I was after in the first place. And will I really be that much more badass as a Kensai 13/Mage 28 than a Fighter 20/Mage 21?
Browsing through the thread, it seems the ftr/mages have the most arguments that can't be easily dismissed with only @AlexDeLarge defending the Kensage argument with reasonable logical points.
Before TOB, Kensai -> Mage was THE "best" option for power, but once you introduce the higher levels and "longer" picture ftr/mage seems to be the best overall choice for a smooth experience throughout the saga without the character reset of dual classing (and accompanying long stretches of one class or the other you get) and loss of end-game choices for one of your classes.
Browsing through the thread, it seems the ftr/mages have the most arguments that can't be easily dismissed with only @AlexDeLarge defending the Kensage argument with reasonable logical points.
Before TOB, Kensai -> Mage was THE "best" option for power, but once you introduce the higher levels and "longer" picture ftr/mage seems to be the best overall choice for a smooth experience throughout the saga without the character reset of dual classing (and accompanying long stretches of one class or the other you get) and loss of end-game choices for one of your classes.
ToB brought two things that increased the relative power of multiclasses: stat capping that allows them to "catch up" to single/dual classes in THAC0 and Saves, and High Level Abilities based on being past an experience benchmark as opposed to absolute level.
I'm wondering if the next poll should be Swashbuckler/Mage vs. Kensai/Mage. I don't think it would be as even as this poll, but it still might be an interesting discussion.
The multiclass, however, will be a lot more fun to play. It's a fighter/mage from the get-go and all through the saga. Why, it's even been made easier by the addition of elven chain!
If you ignore the fact that the plain elven chain sucks in comparison to Robes of Archmagi.... same AC without the spell resistance and saving throw bonus of the robes. Really only useful for Bards who can't wear the robes. If they had made it at least Elven Chain + 1, it'd be more useful to fighter/mages and mage/thiefs...
The elven chain is actual *very* useful for evil fighter/mage characters, as you can't get the Evil-aligned Robes of Archmagi until very late in the game.
In BG2-ToB Kensai-Mage is better, as he can get level 9 spells easily. In dual-class, kensai is so much better than pure fighter to dual from, since mages do not like armors anyway, and you will enjoy sweet bonuses and kai ability of the kensai. A fighter/mage will have warrior HLAs like greater whirlwind and hardiness. But a kensai/mage can equip Belm in off hand and improved haste himself and with true grand mastery in right-hand weapon, he will have 8-9 attacks/round anway. Plus he can cast Time Stop and Dragon's Breath and wreak terrible havoc. You do not want to be the victim of an Improved hasted kensai/mage attacking you with his Kai on with a Dark Blade of Disaster in a Time Stop. The mere notion is scary! Also, hardiness is useless when you have tons of stoneskins/mirror images/protection from magical weapons spells.
In BG:EE however, IMHO a fighter/mage multiclass is way to go, since it is easier and more fun to play with. Dual-classing is awkward to use for unexperienced players, and even troublesome for experienced ones. And playing a lvl 1 kensai is such a chore. You really work hard to level your kensai and keep him alive at low levels, and then dual into mage and work hard to keep him alive and useful in low mage levels too. It is all difficult work, and since you can not get into high levels of mage or kensai in BG:EE, it does not pay off as well.
In BG2-ToB Kensai-Mage is better, as he can get level 9 spells easily. In dual-class, kensai is so much better than pure fighter to dual from, since mages do not like armors anyway, and you will enjoy sweet bonuses and kai ability of the kensai. A fighter/mage will have warrior HLAs like greater whirlwind and hardiness. But a kensai/mage can equip Belm in off hand and improved haste himself and with true grand mastery in right-hand weapon, he will have 8-9 attacks/round anway.
Yes, because of the Greater Whirlwind HLA I did deabte whether it would be better to give my current fighter/mage I'm playing in BGEE proficiencies in two-handed weapons like two-handed swords and staves, as these are better for Whirlwind attacks than dual-wielding, but in the end I gave my current fighter/mage dual-wielding in long swords (and later will give Katanas and Scimitars), as:
a) The extra spellls granted in BG2 from the Zerth Blade Katana in the off-hand look very useful for a fighter/mage, as do the extra attacks from Belm, both of which you can benefit from much earlier than the Whirlwind HLAs
b) I'm taking Dorn as an NPC through both BGEE and BG2EE and I'll be giving him the best two-handed weapons...
Plus he can cast Time Stop and Dragon's Breath and wreak terrible havoc. You do not want to be the victim of an Improved hasted kensai/mage attacking you with his Kai on with a Dark Blade of Disaster in a Time Stop. The mere notion is scary! Also, hardiness is useless when you have tons of stoneskins/mirror images/protection from magical weapons spells.
In BG:EE however, IMHO a fighter/mage multiclass is way to go, since it is easier and more fun to play with. Dual-classing is awkward to use for unexperienced players, and even troublesome for experienced ones. And playing a lvl 1 kensai is such a chore. You really work hard to level your kensai and keep him alive at low levels, and then dual into mage and work hard to keep him alive and useful in low mage levels too. It is all difficult work, and since you can not get into high levels of mage or kensai in BG:EE, it does not pay off as well.
In high level play, warrior HLAs are nice for pure fighter types, since they have no other tricks, and HLAs like GWW and Hardiness conveniently make their lives easier.
A high level dual class kensai/mage however, can simulate nearly all of the abilities, sometimes a little worse, most of the times a lot better.
Examples: Greater Whirlwind? Use improved haste with a +1 attack weapon, 8-9 attacks/round but lasts far longer. Death Blow? Snuff the annoying critters with Death Spell. Hardiness? Stoneskin and Protection from Magical Weapons are better. Magic Resistance? Spell Immunity/Spell Turning/Spell Trap etc. War Cry? Pfft, your good old Horror. Critical Strike so you never miss? Attack in Time Stop when they are easy pickings. Smite so you can blow enemies away? Dragon Breath does it area-effect with massive fire damage.
So, in practice, the Fighter/Mage will have: More HP, a better THAC0, more attacks per round (it's called Greater Weapon Whirlwind), a better AC, and with Critical Strike and Improved Haste, you're looking at Belm 9 attacks, all automatically hitting, all dealing critical hit damage.
The Kensai > Mage will have: 1 more level 6 spell, 2 more level 7s, 2 more level 8s, and 2 more level 9s. If they hit, which is less likely, then they will
The first and most important thing to bear in mind, despite the F/M's clear superiority, is that high level play is Rocket Tag. Whoever casts the first timestop *will* win.
I beg to differ on some points.
1) F/M with greater whirwind, so what? A Kensage can reach 10 apr with Improve Haste which lasts a LOT longer than your HLA.
2) Better AC? We're talking about half-mages, who cares about the AC? Stonesking/PfMW and there you go. And by the way, since we're considering an end-gaming situation, AC doesn't really matter after some point because they both unlikely miss each other.
3) 2 words: Dispel Magic. There is a HUGE difference between what a dispel/remove magic casted by a kensage can accomplish, compared to the F/M's one.
4) More spell-slots DOES make the difference in term of survivability. How many lvl9 spells can have your F/M? 2?
The real advantage I see for a F/M is the combo: Improved Alacrity + Greater Whirlwind + Critical Strike. But then again, this leaves you with just 1 lvl9 free slot, and can easily countered by a simple protection/invisibility. (Just as the Kai)
So where the F/M can be more easy to lvl-up and gives more satisfactions at lower levels, in a hypothetical 1vs1 it will hardly beat a kensage.
in a hypothetical 1vs1 it will hardly beat a kensage
Honestly, trying to duel these characters would be pointless, as it would go to whoever got off their Time Stop first. Two 9th level spells is enough for Time Stop + Improved Alacrity, at which point whoever actually got the Time Stop off proceeds to strip the other of their protections and rip them to shreds.
As far as Imp. Haste vs. Greater Whirlwind goes; I'd point out that Greater Whirlwind is far more plentiful, and gives you more flexibility in your level 6 spell slots, but at this point we're probably cheesing Wish too (and before you say anything, Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist gets 3 9th level spells at cap, so they can have Time Stop + Imp. Alacrity + Wish), so spells per day becomes an irrelevant consideration as well.
The only other HLA worth talking about is Critical Strike, and that's because the F/M can do Imp. Haste + Critical Strike for ten double damage attacks in a round. Sure a lot of bosses have "helmets," but a lot of the demonic minions they summon for support don't.
Comments
I did try to play a kensai through an "honest" playthrough of Baldur's Gate Trilogy, but I kept dying after leaving Candlekeep. Besides, max damage isn't really that powerful; a longsword deals 4.5 average damage and 8 max damage. You're only deal 3.5 more damage per hit with a longsword, 4.5 more damage per hit with a katana/greatsword, etc. I'd rather have Full Plate instead of 3.5 or 4.5 extra damage for BG:EE.
I'd say that the main advantage f/m have over Kensages (in BG1) is the ability to utilize missile weapons. Ranged combat is devastating in BG1. I agree with you that the kensai is better as a frontline combatant, but losing that flexibility has to be considered a minus.
Also bear in mind that, in order to get grandmastery + dual wield, you have to sacrifice any other weapon proficiency, bow included. So even if Kensai would be able to specialize in ranged weapons, i still wouldn't put any pips into bows/crossbows. And an unproficient ranged shooter isn't all that's cracked to be.
BTW has anyone mentioned yet how the multi class gets both sets of HLAs?
@Kaigen I guess what it comes down to is, where do we draw the line on changing things? Imo True Grandmastery stays quite "true" to the original spirit and intent of the game, so the line isn't drawn too far. Multiclass grandmastery is starting to push it though :P But i'm sure many people love having multiclass GM, which is why the mod option was implemented in the first place. And it's a single player game open to a lot of posibilities, you make your own universe, in which you deem what is acceptable or not. So by all means, get your multiclass GM and enjoy it :-)
I just thought that was an important argument in favor of the f/m that no one had yet raised, especially in a hardcore run and doubly so in a solo. The various arrows give you additional tactical flexibility. I find meleeing with a kensai is risky in bg1, even with the shield amulet due to the inability to prevent critical hits.
Naturally, in a party setting the kensage is a bit better in SoA due to the fact that mages boss SoA, and the kensage is virtually equal to a single class mage in spellpower (depends on dual level, but you get the idea). Equally obviously, the f/m is better in ToB because of two pools of HLAs and level 9 spells.
Soloing, the f/m is better throughout, due to the improved tactical flexibility afforded by ranged combat, the ability to wear a helmet when a crit can end your hardcore run immediately, and especially the fact that the faster leveling mitigates the f/m's real weakness, lack of a sufficiently strong spellcaster in mage duels in SoA. It should be noted that soloing a kensage dramatically reduces choice in when to dual, as 13 is impractical.
On balance, I prefer the f/m in hardcore runs.
BTW, for anyone else, I am speaking about the game in hardcore terms because Alex introduced the opposing argument a couple of pages back.
Again, both have their advantages; I just prefer the f/m.
Yes, my entire argument on why Kensage is superior to F/M was based on playing a full party game. For solo runs, definitely the multiclass version is way better.
P.S. I noticed you're doing a no reload run, saw you posting on the bioware forums. I'll join in as soon as SCS is released, and maybe another patch, seeing as there are still bugs in the game (i think its very hard to stop Sarevok from killing Belt in the Palace, also if your familiar dies, you die with it, etc.)
In the meantime, i want to finish a solo run with a F/M/T. Do you think i can win the Sarevok palace battle?
I'm surprised.
Deuce is fine
I introduced the solo variant since you introduced the hardcore scs variant in support of the kensage. If that is going to be evidence for superiority of the kensage, I thought I'd make the f/m's best counterargument.
Your F/M/T shouldn't have any trouble (since you know what you're doing), especially if you're willing to cheese the final battle a bit. If one uses invisibility before speaking to Sarevok, the teleporting mage moves to the entrance, where he can be easily removed without alerting the others. Invis pots and sandthief gives you plenty of easy backstabs, and carrying a set of specialized arrows can make the battle go relatively smoothly. Wands are great, as you know, and can make up for a lot of a f/m/t's deficiencies.
If what I want from the game is to enjoy both class skills simultaneously--to be both a Mage and Fighter--then, personally, I feel deprived by playing just a Kensai for 13 levels, and then just Mage for 14 levels, until I can enjoy both sets of skills at once. That's 27 levels that I'd have to play in order to begin enjoying what I was after in the first place. And will I really be that much more badass as a Kensai 13/Mage 28 than a Fighter 20/Mage 21?
Before TOB, Kensai -> Mage was THE "best" option for power, but once you introduce the higher levels and "longer" picture ftr/mage seems to be the best overall choice for a smooth experience throughout the saga without the character reset of dual classing (and accompanying long stretches of one class or the other you get) and loss of end-game choices for one of your classes.
I'm wondering if the next poll should be Swashbuckler/Mage vs. Kensai/Mage. I don't think it would be as even as this poll, but it still might be an interesting discussion.
In BG:EE however, IMHO a fighter/mage multiclass is way to go, since it is easier and more fun to play with. Dual-classing is awkward to use for unexperienced players, and even troublesome for experienced ones. And playing a lvl 1 kensai is such a chore. You really work hard to level your kensai and keep him alive at low levels, and then dual into mage and work hard to keep him alive and useful in low mage levels too. It is all difficult work, and since you can not get into high levels of mage or kensai in BG:EE, it does not pay off as well.
a) The extra spellls granted in BG2 from the Zerth Blade Katana in the off-hand look very useful for a fighter/mage, as do the extra attacks from Belm, both of which you can benefit from much earlier than the Whirlwind HLAs
b) I'm taking Dorn as an NPC through both BGEE and BG2EE and I'll be giving him the best two-handed weapons... I couldn't agree more
A high level dual class kensai/mage however, can simulate nearly all of the abilities, sometimes a little worse, most of the times a lot better.
Examples:
Greater Whirlwind? Use improved haste with a +1 attack weapon, 8-9 attacks/round but lasts far longer.
Death Blow? Snuff the annoying critters with Death Spell.
Hardiness? Stoneskin and Protection from Magical Weapons are better.
Magic Resistance? Spell Immunity/Spell Turning/Spell Trap etc.
War Cry? Pfft, your good old Horror.
Critical Strike so you never miss? Attack in Time Stop when they are easy pickings.
Smite so you can blow enemies away? Dragon Breath does it area-effect with massive fire damage.
1) F/M with greater whirwind, so what? A Kensage can reach 10 apr with Improve Haste which lasts a LOT longer than your HLA.
2) Better AC? We're talking about half-mages, who cares about the AC? Stonesking/PfMW and there you go. And by the way, since we're considering an end-gaming situation, AC doesn't really matter after some point because they both unlikely miss each other.
3) 2 words: Dispel Magic. There is a HUGE difference between what a dispel/remove magic casted by a kensage can accomplish, compared to the F/M's one.
4) More spell-slots DOES make the difference in term of survivability. How many lvl9 spells can have your F/M? 2?
The real advantage I see for a F/M is the combo: Improved Alacrity + Greater Whirlwind + Critical Strike.
But then again, this leaves you with just 1 lvl9 free slot, and can easily countered by a simple protection/invisibility. (Just as the Kai)
So where the F/M can be more easy to lvl-up and gives more satisfactions at lower levels,
in a hypothetical 1vs1 it will hardly beat a kensage.
Btw my money goes to the Berserk/Mage
As far as Imp. Haste vs. Greater Whirlwind goes; I'd point out that Greater Whirlwind is far more plentiful, and gives you more flexibility in your level 6 spell slots, but at this point we're probably cheesing Wish too (and before you say anything, Gnomish Fighter/Illusionist gets 3 9th level spells at cap, so they can have Time Stop + Imp. Alacrity + Wish), so spells per day becomes an irrelevant consideration as well.
The only other HLA worth talking about is Critical Strike, and that's because the F/M can do Imp. Haste + Critical Strike for ten double damage attacks in a round. Sure a lot of bosses have "helmets," but a lot of the demonic minions they summon for support don't.