Other then David Warner's brilliant voice work, I never cared too much for Irenicus as a villain. I always felt the makers of BG2 tried too hard to portray him as the epitome of evil. Whenever Imoen would interrupt your party every 5 minutes just to whine, "Oh, he's sooooooooo evil...," I just didn't buy it - it just seemed phony somehow.
On top of that, after all his talk, he turns out to be a total pu$$y, and folds like a lawn chair every time you get into battle with him.
I always preferred Sarevok as a villain. From the moment you see him in the intro movie, he's both intimidating and mysterious. Watching him walk through about 50 magic missiles from Gorion and then easily hack him down made me afraid to eventually fight him. I also like the fact that you don't get to see Sarevok or know his motives for most of the game, which also helps build the anticipation of eventually facing him IMO.
I don't know... step back and take a look at this.
CHARNAME ran 200 feet then slept on the main road for 8 hours. And Mr Big and Scary still couldn't find him? o_O
Sarevok is a thicky! ^-^
Well Sarevok & Co did just get a face full of magic. Probably didn't even try to look for charname as there were already a horde of assassins after you anyways.
Well Sarevok & Co did just get a face full of magic. Probably didn't even try to look for charname as there were already a horde of assassins after you anyways.
hm *-) or maybe Tamoko distracted him somehow! n.n Or he had to chase other orphans!
I definitely liked Sarevok as a villain more than Irenicus (although it was laughable when he appeared in public as a good person in his gigantic death armour). I always thought it would've been great for the main story to have one more chapter where Sarevok starts his slaughter of the Sword Coast. With the final fight on a battlefield. ^_^
I wish they had developed great battles such as sarevok's army on the sword coast, irenicus at suldanesselar, or yaga shura against saradush - that would have been so epic!
Irenicus could have taken a few pages out of Sarevok's book when it comes to villany. BG2 is the superior game in every aspect apart from the antagonist. Jon is a good baddie, but Sarevok is more eviler, and more than that the games story builds in such a manner that you can feel Sarevok making moves and hatching plots constantly... trying to take down all of his operations is like playing wackamole, there are redundancies all over the place. Irenicus on the other hand is constantly on the back foot and reacting to outside stimuli, rather than just manning up and taking control. Spellhold is a good example, sure it's a great evil lair, but he was forced there by the cowled wizards. I still maintain that Irenicus could have taken the coweled wizards.
Well Sarevok & Co did just get a face full of magic. Probably didn't even try to look for charname as there were already a horde of assassins after you anyways.
hm *-) or maybe Tamoko distracted him somehow! n.n Or he had to chase other orphans!
I definitely liked Sarevok as a villain more than Irenicus (although it was laughable when he appeared in public as a good person in his gigantic death armour). I always thought it would've been great for the main story to have one more chapter where Sarevok starts his slaughter of the Sword Coast. With the final fight on a battlefield. ^_^
I wish they had developed great battles such as sarevok's army on the sword coast, irenicus at suldanesselar, or yaga shura against saradush - that would have been so epic!
TBH I thought the battle of saradush was one of the weaker encounters in ToB. The infinity engine just wasn't capable of portraying a massive battle the way it needed to be.
I'll admit you have knack for reading what you want to instead of what is actually being written. I called you an idiot because you said everyone that was responding seriously to the OP was butthurt.
Okay, point taken you are right, I did make an unfair assumption about you. I'll remove that piece and see how it plays out:
People are telling him why he is wrong. You look like just as much of an idiot as the the OP and should probably head back to /b/.
Take a chill pill man. Don't be so obtuse. These forums don't need your aggressively negative attitude. I'm fine with you overanalyzing the OP, but when you feel the need to individually shoot down every other person in the thread who dares to find the OP amusing, you are just plain rude. Do us all a favor and stop.
Irenicus could have taken a few pages out of Sarevok's book when it comes to villany. BG2 is the superior game in every aspect apart from the antagonist. Jon is a good baddie, but Sarevok is more eviler, and more than that the games story builds in such a manner that you can feel Sarevok making moves and hatching plots constantly... trying to take down all of his operations is like playing wackamole, there are redundancies all over the place. Irenicus on the other hand is constantly on the back foot and reacting to outside stimuli, rather than just manning up and taking control. Spellhold is a good example, sure it's a great evil lair, but he was forced there by the cowled wizards. I still maintain that Irenicus could have taken the coweled wizards.
Well, he didn't care much for anything other than revenge, I guess. I mean "I'm an archmage who's gonna become a god, everything else is just a means to an end.
BG2 is the superior game in every aspect apart from the antagonist.
Personally I don't call lack of exploration maps, mirrored sprites, pathetic number of NPCs, lack of pure thieves, and even worse bias towards good parties superior.
Apart from those details however, I would more or less agree.
Well Sarevok & Co did just get a face full of magic. Probably didn't even try to look for charname as there were already a horde of assassins after you anyways.
hm *-) or maybe Tamoko distracted him somehow! n.n Or he had to chase other orphans!
I definitely liked Sarevok as a villain more than Irenicus (although it was laughable when he appeared in public as a good person in his gigantic death armour). I always thought it would've been great for the main story to have one more chapter where Sarevok starts his slaughter of the Sword Coast. With the final fight on a battlefield. ^_^
Doesn't Entar Silvershield show up in full plate with a tower shield, or am I thinking of one of the other dukes? Point is, it's really not all that ridiculous to show up in ornate armor to formal events in a fantasy setting.
Well Sarevok & Co did just get a face full of magic. Probably didn't even try to look for charname as there were already a horde of assassins after you anyways.
hm *-) or maybe Tamoko distracted him somehow! n.n Or he had to chase other orphans!
I definitely liked Sarevok as a villain more than Irenicus (although it was laughable when he appeared in public as a good person in his gigantic death armour). I always thought it would've been great for the main story to have one more chapter where Sarevok starts his slaughter of the Sword Coast. With the final fight on a battlefield. ^_^
Doesn't Entar Silvershield show up in full plate with a tower shield, or am I thinking of one of the other dukes? Point is, it's really not all that ridiculous to show up in ornate armor to formal events in a fantasy setting.
Yeah, that's how I always justified it too. I *would* think that the public would perhaps be a little put off by how sinister his armor was, but after that, hearing his eloquent speaking put it aside as "well that's just how he dresses, whatever."
I hang out in a lot of goody-two-shoes environments wearing stuff like Slipknot shirts, Left 4 Dead shirts, and gory stuff like that. I remember my teachers in school being a little put off by that but after seeing how I worked decently hard in school and was just in general a nice person they put my dress choice aside. So, kind of like that.
That's why I prefer the older ambush scene. Gorion takes out the whole party and lays into Sarevok with enough damage to just about kill him (under ideal circumstances), before going down. So Sarevok is in the middle of the forest, with just a sliver of HP left, and his cleric is out of commission....he was in no condition to track you through the forest, and decided to err on the side of caution and just put out a bounty on you while he recovers. Afterward, he's too busy with his plan to come for you in person.
The newer one, Gorion barely dents Sarevok, and Tamoko is basically unscathed...and you've only been running for like 5 rounds. That Murder train should've been able to run you down without breathing hard.
Though yes, I do prefer Sarevok over Irenicus as far as antagonists go. Sarevok had his ambition, and showed what a well played, intelligent chaotic evil character could be. Irenicus was just an empty shell for most of the game, simply going through the motions since seeking revenge was the only comfort he had left. You don't even get to a see but a small fragment of the man he was, save for 1 dialog right before the battle at the tree, that despite everything else he did, does make you feel a bit sorry for him.
0) 1) Yeah its outlawed but hes so powerful unless he starts casting in the streets they probably wouldn't go after him. If Dick Cheney shoots someone in the woods, no one cares, but if he climbs a clock tower then it becomes an issue.
Hahahaha. 5 points to you sir, for services to the interweb.
Irenicus could have taken a few pages out of Sarevok's book when it comes to villany. BG2 is the superior game in every aspect apart from the antagonist. Jon is a good baddie, but Sarevok is more eviler, and more than that the games story builds in such a manner that you can feel Sarevok making moves and hatching plots constantly... trying to take down all of his operations is like playing wackamole, there are redundancies all over the place. Irenicus on the other hand is constantly on the back foot and reacting to outside stimuli, rather than just manning up and taking control. Spellhold is a good example, sure it's a great evil lair, but he was forced there by the cowled wizards. I still maintain that Irenicus could have taken the coweled wizards.
I think of it this way: Sarevok is good at the evil grand strategy. He's got all his pawns lined up, everything's going according to plan...and then one thing goes out of place and the whole thing falls over like a house of cards. When things start going wrong for Sarevok, he just pushes ahead with the plan and hopes that the incompetent assassins he keeps sending after you will finally succeed (also, he really needs to teach his minions to burn the letters).
Irenicus, on the other hand, is terrible at long term planning. He clearly doesn't think through the long-term consequences of his decisions, and I doubt he's spent even a moment considering what he'd do after laying waste to Suldanesselar and eating the World Tree. He's got tunnel vision on that one goal. What he is good at, is speed chess. Something comes along to throw his plans in disarray, and he improvises, adapts, and gets back in control. Shadow Thieves attack too soon and your lair gets wrecked? I bet the Cowled Wizards have a great facility for controlling dangerous mages. Prison riot? Strike a deal with the Drow and move on. Unexpectedly in Hell? Find some allies.
Jan: You know, Binky, I’ve been considering this plan of yours that you had with the Iron Throne and all that. Interesting ideas ... but flawed. Sarevok: Binky? You had best not be addressing me, gnome. Jan: For instance, whose idea was it to put impurities in the iron? Sounds like the lame idea of some yes-man underling who didn’t know when to quit. No doubt you had him flogged. Sarevok: I will not have my past commented upon by the likes of you, churl. Quiet yourself, lest you experience worse than mere flogging. Jan: Speaking of a good flog, I’m brought to mind of poor Aunt Sara. She, too, had a master plan to take over the Sword Coast, you know. Although hers was considerably less dramatic and involved the use of tasty recipes for turnip pie and some mind-altering herbs that Auntie Sara had bought from a rather disreputable Turmish mage. Sarevok: Are you listening to *nothing* I say!? Desist or suffer the consequences! Jan: Do you think she would listen to us. You can trust a Turmish mage as far as you can kick him ... and even then it’s not a bad idea to carry around a good thumping stick. But, alas, Auntie Sara just cackled on in her most villain-like way and was determined to carry on with her plan to hypnotize the whole Sword Coast. Alas, she was completely undone by an over-the-top exposition she gave to a spy that she had captured ... and who subsequently escaped, of course, before she could have him killed. It’s what villains do, I understand, when they’re not busy defiling iron.
Yeah, that's how I always justified it too. I *would* think that the public would perhaps be a little put off by how sinister his armor was, but after that, hearing his eloquent speaking put it aside as "well that's just how he dresses, whatever."
I hang out in a lot of goody-two-shoes environments wearing stuff like Slipknot shirts, Left 4 Dead shirts, and gory stuff like that. I remember my teachers in school being a little put off by that but after seeing how I worked decently hard in school and was just in general a nice person they put my dress choice aside. So, kind of like that.
Exactly. Sarevok had some serious Charisma and political power. Every eligible noblewoman in Baldur's Gate wants to put a ring on his finger. Plus, the nobles who didn't earn their esteem and power like Entar or Eltan did are so completely out of touch with reality that they probably think Sarevok' gear is "just so delightfully macabre!"
Irenicus could have taken a few pages out of Sarevok's book when it comes to villany. BG2 is the superior game in every aspect apart from the antagonist. Jon is a good baddie, but Sarevok is more eviler, and more than that the games story builds in such a manner that you can feel Sarevok making moves and hatching plots constantly... trying to take down all of his operations is like playing wackamole, there are redundancies all over the place. Irenicus on the other hand is constantly on the back foot and reacting to outside stimuli, rather than just manning up and taking control. Spellhold is a good example, sure it's a great evil lair, but he was forced there by the cowled wizards. I still maintain that Irenicus could have taken the coweled wizards.
I think of it this way: Sarevok is good at the evil grand strategy. He's got all his pawns lined up, everything's going according to plan...and then one thing goes out of place and the whole thing falls over like a house of cards. When things start going wrong for Sarevok, he just pushes ahead with the plan and hopes that the incompetent assassins he keeps sending after you will finally succeed (also, he really needs to teach his minions to burn the letters).
Irenicus, on the other hand, is terrible at long term planning. He clearly doesn't think through the long-term consequences of his decisions, and I doubt he's spent even a moment considering what he'd do after laying waste to Suldanesselar and eating the World Tree. He's got tunnel vision on that one goal. What he is good at, is speed chess. Something comes along to throw his plans in disarray, and he improvises, adapts, and gets back in control. Shadow Thieves attack too soon and your lair gets wrecked? I bet the Cowled Wizards have a great facility for controlling dangerous mages. Prison riot? Strike a deal with the Drow and move on. Unexpectedly in Hell? Find some allies.
Gotta say this is an excellent perspective on it. Well put sir.
The only point I'd like to equivocate on is your sarevok metaphor of a house of cards. I'd consider his plans to more like a room full of houses of cards. CHARNAME knocks one over, but there are many more still operational. Which CHARNAME then proceeds to also knock over. Until he knocks them all over. Then he knocks over Sarevok.
The distinction is that Sarevok is a master of compartmentalization. No single act by Charname is enough to take him down. Irenicus on the other hand is constantly foiled by Charname at every point, requiring Irenicus to come to a complete rethinking of his operations and approach. Sarevok keeps himself at arms length the entirety of the plot. Irenicus is usually only one step ahead. A good chess player thinks several steps ahead.
I thought the OP was humorous, and humorous counter posts were made. I like them both as villains a lot. I enjoyed Jon's personal story (and I always thought that character portrait meant he could join me, so I always tried to). However, IMO, Sarevok just wins. His master plan from day one is genius (even if his lackeys are fools, but hey CHARNAME couldn't have handled Angelo at Nashkel now could he?), while Irenicis adapts and moves on, but is met at many turns with a grinning CHARNAME. Also, Sarevok becomes a party member! Either an engine of destruction for your bad guy, or a redeemable brother for your good guy. Definitely an amazing character, though Jon is awesome as well.
I always felt a kind of lack-luster with Irenicus. I never felt altogether too antagonized by his schemes. I never felt a pressing need to defeat him. It didn't really feel accomplished or uplifted when I put an end to him. He's not intimidating or scary looking.
However, I do accept him as a villain. Some reasons why:
Irenicus' Redeeming Qualities 1) David Warner. 2) His vampire doesn't sparkle. 3) He isn't defeated, threatened, discouraged, or at all inconvenienced by the power of love (which apparently has supernatural powers in many stories nowadays). 4) David Warner. 5) He's a REALLY accomplished thief (steals you, steals your companions, steals your stuff, steals your Imoen, steals your soul). 6) He's a plotting, patient type. A rare quality in a villain. Instead of loosing his cool and trying to recapture you, he just starts setting up on Aushold/Spellstralia and lets you deliver yourself. Classy. 7) He doesn't try to be evil. So, while his evil isn't as impressive as maybe some other villains, the evil he does have is all natural. The demons, deals with drow, enslaved or engineered concubines, soul stealing, and mass murders / genocide are simply the natural fallout of his schemes. 8) His comments are often terse yet expressive. Plenty of drama without unnecessarily long speeches. "Know this as you die ever pathetic ever fools!" 9) Oh, and let's not forget about David Warner. Almost neglected that one.
It's like he graduated from the Ernst Stavro Blofeld School of Evil Geniuses or something. Now if only he had installed lasers on Bohdi's head... I mean a vampire is more scary than a shark, right? And either with a laser on it's head would be even more scary, right?
It's about time someone creates a story about a villainous plan that the heroes struggle to foil - only to find out in the end that the plan is perfect and the villain ends up winning. After he defeats the player in the final battle, you can then watch him standing over your dead corpse, delivering his great speech of victory before the credits beguin.
It's about time someone creates a story about a villainous plan that the heroes struggle to foil - only to find out in the end that the plan is perfect and the villain ends up winning. After he defeats the player in the final battle, you can then watch him standing over your dead corpse, delivering his great speech of victory before the credits beguin.
That could work, if it turned out that ultimately you the player were the "main villain" all along, and had concocted the bulk of your adventure to help you recover after losing your power and memories. Then, you realize that your true "evil plan" was actually for the betterment of the world, and the final boss would be an overzealous Paladin who is convinced you're an evil lunatic.
Comments
On top of that, after all his talk, he turns out to be a total pu$$y, and folds like a lawn chair every time you get into battle with him.
I always preferred Sarevok as a villain. From the moment you see him in the intro movie, he's both intimidating and mysterious. Watching him walk through about 50 magic missiles from Gorion and then easily hack him down made me afraid to eventually fight him. I also like the fact that you don't get to see Sarevok or know his motives for most of the game, which also helps build the anticipation of eventually facing him IMO.
Apart from those details however, I would more or less agree.
I hang out in a lot of goody-two-shoes environments wearing stuff like Slipknot shirts, Left 4 Dead shirts, and gory stuff like that. I remember my teachers in school being a little put off by that but after seeing how I worked decently hard in school and was just in general a nice person they put my dress choice aside. So, kind of like that.
The newer one, Gorion barely dents Sarevok, and Tamoko is basically unscathed...and you've only been running for like 5 rounds. That Murder train should've been able to run you down without breathing hard.
Though yes, I do prefer Sarevok over Irenicus as far as antagonists go. Sarevok had his ambition, and showed what a well played, intelligent chaotic evil character could be. Irenicus was just an empty shell for most of the game, simply going through the motions since seeking revenge was the only comfort he had left. You don't even get to a see but a small fragment of the man he was, save for 1 dialog right before the battle at the tree, that despite everything else he did, does make you feel a bit sorry for him.
Seriously, when the awesome David Warner says "It's time for more...experiments", it chills me every time.
Irenicus, on the other hand, is terrible at long term planning. He clearly doesn't think through the long-term consequences of his decisions, and I doubt he's spent even a moment considering what he'd do after laying waste to Suldanesselar and eating the World Tree. He's got tunnel vision on that one goal. What he is good at, is speed chess. Something comes along to throw his plans in disarray, and he improvises, adapts, and gets back in control. Shadow Thieves attack too soon and your lair gets wrecked? I bet the Cowled Wizards have a great facility for controlling dangerous mages. Prison riot? Strike a deal with the Drow and move on. Unexpectedly in Hell? Find some allies.
"12) Makes deal with drow. Breaks deal with drow"
By the way, that counts as two mistakes.
PS: whoa! Unbelievable how many butthurt nerdragers can't get comedy...
Sarevok: Binky? You had best not be addressing me, gnome.
Jan: For instance, whose idea was it to put impurities in the iron? Sounds like the lame idea of some yes-man underling who didn’t know when to quit. No doubt you had him flogged.
Sarevok: I will not have my past commented upon by the likes of you, churl. Quiet yourself, lest you experience worse than mere flogging.
Jan: Speaking of a good flog, I’m brought to mind of poor Aunt Sara. She, too, had a master plan to take over the Sword Coast, you know. Although hers was considerably less dramatic and involved the use of tasty recipes for turnip pie and some mind-altering herbs that Auntie Sara had bought from a rather disreputable Turmish mage.
Sarevok: Are you listening to *nothing* I say!? Desist or suffer the consequences!
Jan: Do you think she would listen to us. You can trust a Turmish mage as far as you can kick him ... and even then it’s not a bad idea to carry around a good thumping stick. But, alas, Auntie Sara just cackled on in her most villain-like way and was determined to carry on with her plan to hypnotize the whole Sword Coast. Alas, she was completely undone by an over-the-top exposition she gave to a spy that she had captured ... and who subsequently escaped, of course, before she could have him killed. It’s what villains do, I understand, when they’re not busy defiling iron.
The only point I'd like to equivocate on is your sarevok metaphor of a house of cards. I'd consider his plans to more like a room full of houses of cards. CHARNAME knocks one over, but there are many more still operational. Which CHARNAME then proceeds to also knock over. Until he knocks them all over. Then he knocks over Sarevok.
The distinction is that Sarevok is a master of compartmentalization. No single act by Charname is enough to take him down. Irenicus on the other hand is constantly foiled by Charname at every point, requiring Irenicus to come to a complete rethinking of his operations and approach. Sarevok keeps himself at arms length the entirety of the plot. Irenicus is usually only one step ahead. A good chess player thinks several steps ahead.
I like them both as villains a lot. I enjoyed Jon's personal story (and I always thought that character portrait meant he could join me, so I always tried to).
However, IMO, Sarevok just wins. His master plan from day one is genius (even if his lackeys are fools, but hey CHARNAME couldn't have handled Angelo at Nashkel now could he?), while Irenicis adapts and moves on, but is met at many turns with a grinning CHARNAME. Also, Sarevok becomes a party member! Either an engine of destruction for your bad guy, or a redeemable brother for your good guy. Definitely an amazing character, though Jon is awesome as well.
However, I do accept him as a villain. Some reasons why:
Irenicus' Redeeming Qualities
1) David Warner.
2) His vampire doesn't sparkle.
3) He isn't defeated, threatened, discouraged, or at all inconvenienced by the power of love (which apparently has supernatural powers in many stories nowadays).
4) David Warner.
5) He's a REALLY accomplished thief (steals you, steals your companions, steals your stuff, steals your Imoen, steals your soul).
6) He's a plotting, patient type. A rare quality in a villain. Instead of loosing his cool and trying to recapture you, he just starts setting up on Aushold/Spellstralia and lets you deliver yourself. Classy.
7) He doesn't try to be evil. So, while his evil isn't as impressive as maybe some other villains, the evil he does have is all natural. The demons, deals with drow, enslaved or engineered concubines, soul stealing, and mass murders / genocide are simply the natural fallout of his schemes.
8) His comments are often terse yet expressive. Plenty of drama without unnecessarily long speeches. "Know this as you die ever pathetic ever fools!"
9) Oh, and let's not forget about David Warner. Almost neglected that one.