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Evil party is easier

Around the time you are about lvl5 in Baldur's Gate city. No need to follow the quests and perform good tasks, you can just walk into the factions that oppose you and deal with them. On the way you can kill and loot all you need. Someone has noticed you and the guards have been summoned? Just clear out the room first. No need to watch out with your conversations, the end result is always the same... Flaming Fist enforcers? Who cares? You can carve them up real nice. Don't watch your reputation. You got plenty of gold by this time anyway.

An evil party isn't difficult. It just requires the proper dedication.








:D
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Comments

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    edited December 2012
    I've never tried really evil protagonists because it makes me think of evil stuff in the real world. I'd have to be a better actor to roleplay an evil Charname...
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,586
    The "good" side has all the best archers, though. :-b
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300

    Since I am actually an actor, I feel qualified to say that the dialogue options available to evil characters in BG really aren't worth considering. You're not being evil, you're mostly just being a dick. Playing a well-written evil character is really fun, because it allows you to draw on aspects of your personality that you (hopefully) don't get to express in your normal life. It can be very cathartic. Being a dick can be humorous, but generally isn't a particularly inspiring role.

    They should learn that from Ps:Torment - that's a game where I like playing any alignment. In BG1 I usually have a neutral guy, who seeks survival and revenge above all else.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    The "good" side has all the best archers, though. :-b

    Agreed. The one thing an evil parties misses out on in BG1 is a worthwhile archer.
  • RiolathelRiolathel Member Posts: 330
    DJKajuru said:

    Since I am actually an actor, I feel qualified to say that the dialogue options available to evil characters in BG really aren't worth considering. You're not being evil, you're mostly just being a dick. Playing a well-written evil character is really fun, because it allows you to draw on aspects of your personality that you (hopefully) don't get to express in your normal life. It can be very cathartic. Being a dick can be humorous, but generally isn't a particularly inspiring role.

    They should learn that from Ps:Torment - that's a game where I like playing any alignment. In BG1 I usually have a neutral guy, who seeks survival and revenge above all else.
    I too enjoy being the neutral guy.. For instance i completed the thieves' guild quest and then killed all the thieves and didn't feel guilty because they tried to rob me earlier in another house. Good guys can't kill anyone who isn't obviously evil without getting an alignment switch (in PnP that is). And if you enjoy RPing your alignment you'll stick to it.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    I too enjoy being the neutral guy.. For instance i completed the thieves' guild quest and then killed all the thieves and didn't feel guilty because they tried to rob me earlier in another house. Good guys can't kill anyone who isn't obviously evil without getting an alignment switch (in PnP that is). And if you enjoy RPing your alignment you'll stick to it.

    If you're a good person, you can still very much kill anyone who isn't obviously evil. Most of the enemies you face in life are actually neutral and just in your way. Kind-of-a-jerk Iron Throne Mercenary with wife and kids isn't Obviously Evil, he's just a guy who's your enemy. Bandit #3? Yeah, he's trying to earn money to feed his kid sister.

    Good characters will stop being good if they start murdering innocents or attacking people without reasonable cause (and even Reasonable Cause is different character to character), not for killing anyone they want for the lulz.

    But then, Neutral people don't kill innocent people on a whim either, that's the hallmark of evil, and doing that too much is just Evil.
  • ChowChow Member Posts: 1,192
    edited December 2012
    If a game wanted to do playing evil properly, the evil acts would be reasonable instead of just being a jerk, much easier than the good path (like killing someone for the artifact instead of doing the quest he asks for it), and still give more gold and experience and other rewards.

    The only price to pay should be that you're also being a massive douchebag. Evil is easier, there is always a reason for doing it, and it will give you the spoils and benefits for far less trouble - while the only reason to do good is for its own sake, in spite of you suffering for it.
  • HeliasHelias Member Posts: 112
    edited December 2012
    I disagree, Chow. In all human societies, behaving in an evil way is likely to cause great hostility. It - generally - makes life much more difficult. Even if we would agree that a game doesn't need to be educational in any way, it doesn't have to go the other way round either.

    The great advantage of evil is that it can ignore all rules, legal or moral. The good side always fights with a hand behind its back, so to speak. But the great drawback of evil is the lack of trust between its practicioners. In the game this isn't reflected, as evil characters seem to trust evil characters more than others. In the real world Kagain and Xzar would be much more likely to be cheated, robbed or killed by Montaron or Edwin than by Imoen or Khalid.
  • ChowChow Member Posts: 1,192
    edited December 2012
    That's just a different way of saying precisely what I meant, @Helias. Being evil allows you to ignore all legal and moral rules - which, that's to say, is much easier than not ignoring them. Behaving in an evil way is likely to make everyone hostile at you - indeed the same as taking the easy path, more often than not.

    Both good and evil have their benefits and drawbacks. Doing good instead of evil makes you look more trustworthy, true, but it also has other, worse consequences - such as, for instance, making yourself look weak or foolish in the eyes of certain people. Good is willing to take the chances, while evil usually exploits those: hence you so often see, in movies, the good guy sparing the villain's life, only for him to try and stab the poor fellow in the back or otherwise exploit him for it (and sometimes even succeed!).

    But in the end, why do you think there are so many criminals? Why do you think people choose the life of a burglar or a thief instead of doing a honest day's work? Why are there so damn many bandits along the Sword Coast these days? Or, as has been shown recently in the real world, why do people buy guns instead of getting themselves mental health care? Why do terrorists go to war and wish to shoot and kill those of other nationality or religion, thinking of them as evil monsters based on propaganda or being raised by other extremists, instead of trying to actually learn about matters, seek different points of view, and draw their own conclusions? Why do corrupt executives exploit cheap workforce in less-developed countries? Why is there so much oppression and violation of basic human rights? Why do we continue to pollute and destroy our world instead of finding alternative ways of power?

    Because it's easy.
  • HeliasHelias Member Posts: 112
    edited December 2012
    I hope we are not turning this into too much of a philosophical debate, @Chow, but I still disagree. We should not confuse good with being weak, hesitant or - least of all - passive in the face of evil. (We had another debate a few days ago on whether Kivan's mistrust of all drow could be compatible with his "good" alignment - I thought it could).

    It is true that there are still a lot of bad actions happening, but in sheer number they are dwarfed by the number of good actions in this world (just think about mothers and what they do for their children). And they aren't all the result of people choosing the easy way. Plain stupidity and mental disorder explain a lot.

    I insist most on my point that evil will more often than not fail (and hence not be the easy choice) because there is no solidarity (or trust) between bad people. But it does exist between good people - even though current day cynicism will often insist it does not.

    I will concede this point: evil may sometimes appear or even be the easiest choice. But generally it is not. Fortunately! :)
  • bigdogchrisbigdogchris Member Posts: 1,336
    I don't feel right demanding reward or asking about one when playing a Good party. I also do not like breaking in and stealing things in a Good party. If I were an evil party I would have no problem behaving that way. I think being Evil would make the game easier financially (though it's already very easy being Good).
  • ChowChow Member Posts: 1,192
    Helias said:

    We should not confuse good with being weak, hesitant or - least of all - passive in the face of evil. (We had another debate a few days ago on whether Kivan's mistrust of all drow could be compatible with his "good" alignment - I thought it could).

    Oh, quite the contrary: it is evil that is weak and passive. That's why they take the easiest path, after all: they do not have the strength or fortitude to try harder than that, to take the more difficult but also better and more rewarding path.

    It's just evil that thinks good is weak and easy to exploit.
    Helias said:

    It is true that there are still a lot of bad actions happening, but in sheer number they are dwarfed by the number of good actions in this world (just think about mothers and what they do for their children). And they aren't all the result of people choosing the easy way. Plain stupidity and mental disorder explain a lot.

    Indeed, not everything in this world is evil - fortunately. And often, it may be hard to make the difference between the foolishness of youth and true malice. Some people do not know better, but those people, I think, are in the minority.
    Helias said:

    I insist most on my point that evil will more often than not fail (and hence not be the easy choice) because there is no solidarity (or trust) between bad people. But it does exist between good people - even though current day cynicism will often insist it does not.

    I will concede this point: evil may sometimes appear or even be the easiest choice. But generally it is not. Fortunately! :)

    I'm not saying that evil doesn't fail more often, or that it actually is easy from start to end, but it still appears as the easy choice at first, and that is most of the time enough for those that choose this path: perhaps, in the long run, choosing the road of good would be better and easier, but evil is almost always such in the shorter run, and those that do not like to think too far ahead - or think of themselves clever enough to sidestep the inevitable drawbacks - think they will be better off by choosing the short-term benefit. Hence bandits and thieves and other such ilk, who take the easy path to get a lot of money, and simply think they'll never be caught, or that even in the end it'll be worth it anyway.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    BTW there are some disadvantages in playing an evil party in terms of equipment e.g. in BGEE you can't get the evil-aligned Robe of Archmagi until quite late in the game, in BG2 only good characters can use the Azuredge Axe and Carsomyr two-handed sword (though only evil characters can use the Human Flesh armour), though I don't know the whole list of which alignments can use what items in each game - can anyone clarify?
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    If you play on core or higher without blatant cheats keeping a relatively large party of NPCs I think it would be very difficult to:

    1) start with an evil group -
    2) drop your rep to 1 or 2 early on (say prior to Nashkel mines)
    3) and leave it there for the rest of the game.

    Now playing an evil group with rep constantly adjusted to stay around 5-6 might be relatively easy or perhaps after becoming very powerful before dropping the rep down to 1 or two - after stocking up on the best weapons/gear etc - or playing with custom made power builds etc etc.

    But right out of the box with a "normal" PC and party of NPCs? Not so much I'm thinking - in fact I suspect most people would be lucky to get such a group to BG City at all playing under those circumstances.
  • WorgWorg Member Posts: 170
    "So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb." - Lord helmet
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Wanderon said:

    If you play on core or higher without blatant cheats keeping a relatively large party of NPCs I think it would be very difficult to:

    1) start with an evil group -
    2) drop your rep to 1 or 2 early on (say prior to Nashkel mines)
    3) and leave it there for the rest of the game.

    Now playing an evil group with rep constantly adjusted to stay around 5-6 might be relatively easy or perhaps after becoming very powerful before dropping the rep down to 1 or two - after stocking up on the best weapons/gear etc - or playing with custom made power builds etc etc.

    But right out of the box with a "normal" PC and party of NPCs? Not so much I'm thinking - in fact I suspect most people would be lucky to get such a group to BG City at all playing under those circumstances.

    I try to keep my reputation around 6-8 when playing evil for this reason...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
    edited December 2012
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    And indeed if the evil leader of such a group is not a total idiot as well as being evil he would probably do the same - bad enough to keep his evil cohorts happy - good enough to keep the Flaming Fist off his backside so he can continue to pillage in relative safety... ;-)


  • thedemoninsidethedemoninside Member Posts: 188
    I'd like to put the movie "Natural Born Killers" in your minds when considering how BG plays with an evil party. Anyone who has watched it knows the tale of a couple who go on a killing rampage taking whatever they want, with the police always on their tale. They killed them any chance they got as well. I believe they killed 51 people in just under a month and where caught.

    BG doesn't play much different. The characters in the movie acted as normal people mostly, initiating dialogue with a charm that would rival the way most people would treat you or I. The only difference was they would probably kill you afterwards. I think this is why there is seemingly sparse "evil" dialogue in the game. There are dick comments you can choose that IMO are suited for a Chaotic Evil/Neutral NPC.

    Never did agree with the reputation level effecting store prices though. In a small area like BG, word travels fast, and I can see why a store clerk would think you deserved to pay more. However I think he would be more likely to give his items away or at least try to sell them cheap to avoid being killed himself. I guess for gameplay they tried to balance it so all that extra gold you acquired through your robbing and killing would be spent with less reward. I feel it was much too harsh though, as the punishment severely limits the desire to roleplay as evil.
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552

    I'd like to put the movie "Natural Born Killers" in your minds when considering how BG plays with an evil party. Anyone who has watched it knows the tale of a couple who go on a killing rampage taking whatever they want, with the police always on their tale. They killed them any chance they got as well. I believe they killed 51 people in just under a month and where caught.

    BG doesn't play much different. The characters in the movie acted as normal people mostly, initiating dialogue with a charm that would rival the way most people would treat you or I. The only difference was they would probably kill you afterwards. I think this is why there is seemingly sparse "evil" dialogue in the game. There are dick comments you can choose that IMO are suited for a Chaotic Evil/Neutral NPC.

    Never did agree with the reputation level effecting store prices though. In a small area like BG, word travels fast, and I can see why a store clerk would think you deserved to pay more. However I think he would be more likely to give his items away or at least try to sell them cheap to avoid being killed himself. I guess for gameplay they tried to balance it so all that extra gold you acquired through your robbing and killing would be spent with less reward. I feel it was much too harsh though, as the punishment severely limits the desire to roleplay as evil.

    This asks for portraits
  • Xezmeraude2Xezmeraude2 Member Posts: 47
    I htink the devs didnt want to add serious evilness to the game as for the fact this game can also be enjoyed by younger audiences. Though if I remember this was a Teen rated game and kids needed parental permission to play the game and be able to understand the maturity within the game and not be offended by it and know its not real, they chose to tone it down more or less so its still enjoyable for others to follow. Back in those days, it was bad to make games get really serious, take Manhunt for example why its banned in so many countries. For some strange reason, we cant take evilness on games to such a degree and it must be toned down for audiences to be able to play the game. If this was an adult based game though, by all means I would see the full blunt of eviulness be explained in the game and can be chosen to play evil in any way an evil person could be protrayed as. But i would agree with those who feel the game isnt exactly evil enough and could be boosted up a notch or two, but I also agree with those who think its evil as it is. There are quite many things you can do evily but evil doesnt always have to be labeled as blow up the world or everyone you see or fight all the flaming fists to no end or act insanely. There is evil ways minor major and inbetween. Just cause the choices may not sound evil, you make the choice you think is evil and follow it how you think one would after saying that line./ Its up to you how you make evil look in the game not by what the game tells you to.
  • NukeninNukenin Member Posts: 327
    Helias said:

    […]
    The great advantage of evil is that it can ignore all rules, legal or moral.
    […]

    (emphasis mine)

    Lawful Evil respectfully disagrees.
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    edited December 2012
    The point is: to play evil you need to be strong enough and then go on a full rampage. You need to completely ignore all rules, restrictions, reputation and just hack your way through like you know you really want to. You need to really give in to that feeling of wishing to shut up that convicting Flaming Fist enforcer, Paladin or arrogant noblewoman. Without restrains and disregarding the consequences. Only then playing evil really works.
  • Xezmeraude2Xezmeraude2 Member Posts: 47
    ^ i have to agree too. They use evil to build laws to their favor and power and those who are against their tyranny and dictatorship are killed with no exceptions or opposition to retaliate.
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 937
    To be fair, @IkMarc the vast majority of evil people in the world only rarely consider themselves to be "evil." Usually they think they are doing some form of "good," starting by being right by themselves, then the people they care about, and then finally (if they can spare the time and the effort) the rest of the world. Even if they don't think they're doing "good" they probably take a neutral view of themselves, believing that their actions balance out. There are a few people who genuinely enjoy being jerks, and an even smaller number (a VERY small number) who are true sociopaths or psychopaths that kill callously. That portion of the evil alignment I feel to be a very small number, the rest of them try to get by in society for the most part and occasionally cheat morality and/or the rules for their version of "good," that translates to "good for me and mine."

    Of course, many people have pointed out that you're not an average Joe as CHARNAME, so perhaps you're not average Evil either. I would be far more tempted to do an evil play-through if I had dialogue that affected the world like Iago affected the play "Othello."
  • EnterHaerDalisEnterHaerDalis Member Posts: 813
    Quartz said:

    The "good" side has all the best archers, though. :-b

    Agreed. The one thing an evil parties misses out on in BG1 is a worthwhile archer.
    I'm playing an evil party right now and I just got mowed down by a pack of Black Talon Elites with frosty arrows of doom. I hadn't given Viconia a sling yet, it was basically lambs to the slaughter trying to close the distance lol

    Reading this is nice, and completely true. My PC uses slings and they are simply lethargic compared to bows, make it very challenging without a bowman.

    Although I will say that being a pure evil party in BG2 is a hell of a lot harder than BG1 by a landslide.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    Quartz said:

    The "good" side has all the best archers, though. :-b

    Agreed. The one thing an evil parties misses out on in BG1 is a worthwhile archer.
    I'm playing an evil party right now and I just got mowed down by a pack of Black Talon Elites with frosty arrows of doom. I hadn't given Viconia a sling yet, it was basically lambs to the slaughter trying to close the distance lol

    Reading this is nice, and completely true. My PC uses slings and they are simply lethargic compared to bows, make it very challenging without a bowman.
    Though In BGEE slings are the only ranged weapon that add strength damage (not even throwing axes or daggers anymore, despite what the manual says), Viconia with the ogre gloves and her 19 Dex is *nasty* with a sling, especially:


    as they've added some nice elemental magic bullets to High Hedge

    Although I will say that being a pure evil party in BG2 is a hell of a lot harder than BG1 by a landslide.
    But more of an interesting challenge?
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