It's not that Lawful Evil disregards law - it's that he uses all the loopholes he can for his own benefit, spends much time and money to lobby in other stuff that will bring him profit but might harm the rest of the world, and is generally a corrupt executive. He follows the law to its letter, but not spirit.
He could earn his money honestly and not use this kind of unsavory tricks, but that would be much harder and slower. As has been pointed out, evil always takes the easy path.
[…] The great advantage of evil is that it can ignore all rules, legal or moral. […]
(emphasis mine)
Lawful Evil respectfully disagrees.
Incorrect. Lawful Evil respectfully sues your butt for slander, takes you for everything you own and has you thrown into the Black Pits for inability to pay your debts. Because it doesn't ignore the rules, It knows them far better than you do.
[…] The great advantage of evil is that it can ignore all rules, legal or moral. […]
(emphasis mine)
Lawful Evil respectfully disagrees.
Incorrect. Lawful Evil respectfully sues your butt for slander, takes you for everything you own and has you thrown into the Black Pits for inability to pay your debts. Because it doesn't ignore the rules, It knows them far better than you do.
My CE Blackguard is having no problems at the moment with 1 rep onto bandit camp now but I couldn't kill Volo in Nashkel he was just immune to all damage
[…] The great advantage of evil is that it can ignore all rules, legal or moral. […]
(emphasis mine)
Lawful Evil respectfully disagrees.
In the game, ok. But in real life disregard for the law will be higher among evil characters than among good people.
Oh I think you'll find most real life Corporations and their higher-ups are most definitely Lawful Evil, it's easily the most effective form of evil when you can coerce Lawful Good people into defending you.
Isn't evil always easier than good? Easier to destroy than to build, kill than to nurture. Fear leads to hate. Hate leads to anger. Anger leads to the Dark Side.
@Helias , I don't know where you are from, but it truly depends wether the government is obviously corrupt or partially corrupt .
I don't now where you are from, but I'm guessing most of us here live in liberal democracies that are governed by the rule of law. Many laws you and I may disagree with, but exceptionally few we would be justified in breaking.
Oh I think you'll find most real life Corporations and their higher-ups are most definitely Lawful Evil, it's easily the most effective form of evil when you can coerce Lawful Good people into defending you.
I think that even at the highest levels of business there still are some good people to be found. Being generally good doesn't imply living like St-Francis, Mother Theresa or Mahatma Gandhi. And would you really be surprised to find out that the less conscientious at the top aren't really that lawful at all? They often get away with breaking the law, I agree with you there.
Even at the higher levels good poeple will tend to be overrepresented in the category "law abiding". While evil people are more likely to be found in the other category.
The reason is simple: in a democracy most laws express or at least respect the moral feelings of most of the people. A lot of people may e.g. disagree with the gun laws in the US, the tax laws in France or the ban on foxhunting in the UK. But the controversial laws are a tiny minority. Laws against killing, wounding, stealing, extortion, .... are generally in line with the morality of the people.
Anyway, the game itself was smart enough to avoid the category "unlawful" (which would have been the logical opposite of "lawful") but called it "chaotic", which is not really the same thing. Perhaps because "unlawful good" would indeed be a somewhat unnatural thing?
Anyway, the game itself was smart enough to avoid the category "unlawful" (which would have been the logical opposite of "lawful") but called it "chaotic", which is not really the same thing. Perhaps because "unlawful good" would indeed be a somewhat unnatural thing?
Its mostly because AD&D didnt go by the literal dictionary definition, but rather the fantasy trope. Largely inspired by Michael Moorcock's Elric series. If they were really trying to be more accurate, Law should have been 'order.'
Thanks, @CutlassJack. That explains a lot. "Order" and "Chaotic" are much more difficult to relate to good and evil than "lawful" and "unlawful". The categories in the game make more sense in that light.
In the first place, Alignment "LAW" does not equate or even relate or correlate to "Legal". One is not the other. Neither intersect. Good or Evil, "Lawful" has NOTHING to do with the law of the land. Any Lawful character is no more or less likely to follow the law than any Chaotic character. This has been discussed and debated over many years by WoTC, by Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer and by a bunch of other "Knowledgeable" sources. I think if you read your Players Handbook or DMG, you will find words specifically to that effect.
A "Lawfully" aligned character Is more about Unity and structure and control. They are generally more strategic, more long term planning, more likely to stick to a code or some other ethos. They may be about Order, but that isn't the same as Law.
This has nothing what so ever to do with the law of the land. A Lawful Good paladin would no more uphold Slavery laws in a country where they were legal than he would remove his own spleen with a spoon on an off Saturday afternoon. Likewise, a Lawful Evil villain is not necessarily bound to the legal wranglings of the law of the land.
One does not equal the other. Period. it was never intended to be. If you want to know where the origins come from, read the Michael Moorcock books about Elric. The Lords of Chaos had laws as well. They were not ADHD lunatics that just did whatever the mood told them to do. And the Lords of Law cared not one whit about the puny laws of Man. Order? yes. Law? No.
And Legal matters themselves are VERY often chaotic in nature. Laws are put on the books more or less as they crop up. They are not always structured or even consistent. And they definitely do not provide a coherent base. Ask any lawyer, judge or just about anyone in the legal system.
I wouldn't dismiss people who game the system to get what they want, they DO exist in decent numbers, they DO abide the letter of the law (and not the intent), and they sometimes lobby for weird loopholes in the law that end up benefitting them. I'm not saying they are in the majority, and I'm not saying that all corporations are morally bankrupt. I'm just pointing out that there are ways to use the extant structure of society to your benefit, even if it is not benefitting others. I also agree that "Ordered" would fit better than "Lawful."
"Certainly m'lady. I will help you find your son!"
You go on your generic RPG fetch quest, find the son. Kill him and loot his +3 Holy Flaming Bastard Sword of Righteousness, remove his bloody golden pantaloons and bring them back to mommy as proof that some bandits killed him. Once you receive your reward, kill her and rob the home without fear of her calling the Flaming Fist.
You can't really do this with as much flair in the game, but there are some situations where you can get creative.
"Certainly m'lady. I will help you find your son!"
You go on your generic RPG fetch quest, find the son. Kill him and loot his +3 Holy Flaming Bastard Sword of Righteousness, remove his bloody golden pantaloons and bring them back to mommy as proof that some bandits killed him. Once you receive your reward, kill her and rob the home without fear of her calling the Flaming Fist.
You can't really do this with as much flair in the game, but there are some situations where you can get creative.
I'd say by far these are the exceptions instead of the rule.
Comments
He could earn his money honestly and not use this kind of unsavory tricks, but that would be much harder and slower. As has been pointed out, evil always takes the easy path.
I mean, umm... Wrong ethos. Same result
Even at the higher levels good poeple will tend to be overrepresented in the category "law abiding". While evil people are more likely to be found in the other category.
The reason is simple: in a democracy most laws express or at least respect the moral feelings of most of the people. A lot of people may e.g. disagree with the gun laws in the US, the tax laws in France or the ban on foxhunting in the UK. But the controversial laws are a tiny minority. Laws against killing, wounding, stealing, extortion, .... are generally in line with the morality of the people.
Anyway, the game itself was smart enough to avoid the category "unlawful" (which would have been the logical opposite of "lawful") but called it "chaotic", which is not really the same thing. Perhaps because "unlawful good" would indeed be a somewhat unnatural thing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_and_Chaos
In the first place, Alignment "LAW" does not equate or even relate or correlate to "Legal". One is not the other. Neither intersect. Good or Evil, "Lawful" has NOTHING to do with the law of the land. Any Lawful character is no more or less likely to follow the law than any Chaotic character. This has been discussed and debated over many years by WoTC, by Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer and by a bunch of other "Knowledgeable" sources. I think if you read your Players Handbook or DMG, you will find words specifically to that effect.
A "Lawfully" aligned character Is more about Unity and structure and control. They are generally more strategic, more long term planning, more likely to stick to a code or some other ethos. They may be about Order, but that isn't the same as Law.
This has nothing what so ever to do with the law of the land. A Lawful Good paladin would no more uphold Slavery laws in a country where they were legal than he would remove his own spleen with a spoon on an off Saturday afternoon. Likewise, a Lawful Evil villain is not necessarily bound to the legal wranglings of the law of the land.
One does not equal the other. Period. it was never intended to be. If you want to know where the origins come from, read the Michael Moorcock books about Elric. The Lords of Chaos had laws as well. They were not ADHD lunatics that just did whatever the mood told them to do. And the Lords of Law cared not one whit about the puny laws of Man. Order? yes. Law? No.
And Legal matters themselves are VERY often chaotic in nature. Laws are put on the books more or less as they crop up. They are not always structured or even consistent. And they definitely do not provide a coherent base. Ask any lawyer, judge or just about anyone in the legal system.
"Certainly m'lady. I will help you find your son!"
You go on your generic RPG fetch quest, find the son. Kill him and loot his +3 Holy Flaming Bastard Sword of Righteousness, remove his bloody golden pantaloons and bring them back to mommy as proof that some bandits killed him. Once you receive your reward, kill her and rob the home without fear of her calling the Flaming Fist.
You can't really do this with as much flair in the game, but there are some situations where you can get creative.