[(BG1) BUG] Ankheg Plate (PLAT06) incorrectly designated as magical

Bhryaen

OBSERVED:
This is a matter of ankheg plate being incorrectly labeled as a magic item with regards to using Protection Rings/ Amulets. I doubt Taerom is using any magical means in his craft, ankhegs aren't any more a magical beast than a xvart (though xvarts are cuter), and there's no "+1" attached to it. So it seems an oops that the "This item cannot be equipped due to other magical equipment you are currently wearing" message shows up when trying to don a +1 Protection Ring simultaneously.

EXPECTED:
Reclassify PLAT06 to remove the (6) Magical qualifier.

NOTES:
Resubmitted in its own atomized thread...

Wisp

Actually, the fix for this would be to remove plat06 from itemexcl.2da. The "magical" bit is unrelated (though perhaps inappropriate as well).

Coriander

I'll deal with it.

Nathan

Verified, plat06 is no longer present in the specified 2DA internally - the next build should have this fix present in it.

Avenger_teambg

Cool, now one can give protection rings to their Minsc, i mean tank
This may have been a fishy balancing tweak, but i'm happy it's gone.

Avenger_teambg

Confirmed fixed.

Boaster

Yeah.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2703/ankheg-plate-mail-2-is-it-really-magical#latest

I wasn't sure it was a "bug" per se, but I definitely wanted it to be discussed.

Roller12

Excuse me but how is this a fix? Well im not about to argue on semantics, but this modification transforms the Angkeg armor into the best armor in the entire BG saga, including ToB. Enkidu Full plate is a -2 magical armor, which is about the same as the Ankheg armor worn with a +2/+3 protection item. Unless ofc you plan to make all dragon scale armors non magical, like the other ToB endgame armor the white dragon scale ( -2 base AC) we get from Abazigal and has Cone of Cold 3/day and some resistances, which are quite obviously magical. With this change we get 2 armors before even reaching Nashkel mines, which will last up until the end of ToB. Im not sure is this intended?

Tanthalas

I doubt changes will be made to the dragon armors as dragons are magical beings.

As for the Ancheg armor. Yes, its now even better than before.

Avenger_teambg

Roller12 said:

Excuse me but how is this a fix? Well im not about to argue on semantics, but this modification transforms the Angkeg armor into the best armor in the entire BG saga, including ToB. Enkidu Full plate is a -2 magical armor, which is about the same as the Ankheg armor worn with a +2/+3 protection item. Unless ofc you plan to make all dragon scale armors non magical, like the other ToB endgame armor the white dragon scale ( -2 base AC) we get from Abazigal and has Cone of Cold 3/day and some resistances, which are quite obviously magical. With this change we get 2 armors before even reaching Nashkel mines, which will last up until the end of ToB. Im not sure is this intended?

What is the best AC you can achieve with it, in BG1?

Roller12

Its not better, its the best armor in the game, and officially renders any other armor obsolete, short of some tob late game ones, which may equal in some areas. Looking at it in NearInfinity its bonuses are also those of Plate Mail +2.

Looking at it logically a magical armor isnt the one which uses or employs magic, its the one which is better than a regular one, thus the +x mod. A simple sword +1 is also magical even though it has nothing but +1 going on. This change is not comprehensible to me. The ankheg armor was pretty balanced already.

Tanthalas

It wasn't a matter of balance but rather is the Ancheg Plate really magical? And the answer was no. I know I wasn't the only one going "WTF?" when I couldn't equip the plate with a ring of protection.

Miloch

@Avenger_teambg - it sets the base AC to 1, same as full plate (therefore full plate +1 is better, as it sets AC to 0).

I hope someone fixed the buggy colouring (third opcode #7 sets the colour to 44 *purple* when the icon of the item has no such colour, clearly being greenish/brownish). This is a lot more noticeable in the BG2 engine as I recall, since I think the colouring locations function slightly differently - end result for Tutu being you had a nice lavender ankheg armour. If the wearer were male and Charlie Murphy were on the Sword Coast, he'd probably come up to you and say, "Now I don't know where you got that armor, but I know for damn sure it wasn't the men's department..."

Roller12

Well how is a plain plate mail +2 magical? it has no magic on it. A question of semantics. Adding some fancy animations like those of Cromwell and voila, the Beregost smith suddenly uses magic to create Ankhegs armor too.

Avenger_teambg

Miloch said:

..."

Yes.

Tanthalas

Roller12 said:

Well how is a plain plate mail +2 magical? it has no magic on it. A question of semantics. Adding some fancy animations like those of Cromwell and voila, the Beregost smith suddenly uses magic to create Ankhegs armor too.

How is weapon +1 magical too? Its the same semantics problem.

Roller12

The fullplate +1 has -2 saving throws less, compared to this angkeg, thus is worse. It is also heavier and available only right before the end of BG.

Tanthalas

Fullplate +1 was always less than Fullplate too.

Roller12

Tanthalas said:

How is weapon +1 magical too? Its the same semantics problem.

Exactly, thus i dont understand the selective tweaking here, the ankheg armor is just a rebranded plate mail +2.

Tanthalas

Its not really the same situation, we just put the Ancheg armor to the same standards of all non-magical armor.

Miloch

Eh, I don't see either armour changes saving throws. Yes, full plate +1 weighs 35 vs. 25 for ankheg. Not really a big difference when full plate weighs 70 and even plate mail weighs 50. I don't think anyone will argue that ankheg plate is bloody good armour and that it's bloody stupid to find it in a farmer's field when you think he'd've found it himself whilst ploughing etc. But if it was put there intentionally in the original game, it's probably best for mods to change that (IIRC Unique Containers/Lost Items moves it to one of the carnival shops).

Tanthalas

@Miloch

He's taking into account that with this change you can now use the Ancheg armor at the same time as a Ring of Protection, which basically now makes the armor more powerful.

Bhryaen

Just checked PLAT05 (Full Plate +1) in Near Infinity... No such Save bonus found. Nothing about a save bonus in the description either:

Full plate armor +1 : 'Plate of the Dark' Dark Lord Hertious, undead Warlord of Bane, wore this piece of armor for over 500 years. During this time he was rumored to dwell in a castle somewhere within the Earthfast Mountains. How his armor moved to other lands without him is not certain, though the separation of the two was surely unpleasant. STATISTICS: Armor Class: 0 Weight: 35

Now, if Taerom were to make Ankheg Plate Armor +1 (with a magical enhancement)... yeah, magical. But even then I'm not persuaded to wear +1 ankheg plate against a dragon... There's really nothing better up to the end of ToB?

Roller12

Ankheg + ring of protection +2 = -1 base AC , -2 save bonus
Full plate +1 = 0 base AC, 0 save bonus.
Ankheg 25 weight
FP+1 35 weight

cannot use magical items with magical armors, which is why magical armors have better stats, in particular the Ankheg armor. It has better stats than comparable armors to compensate for its inherent penalty.

Tanthalas

Yes, and we thought it was a crappy reason.

Bhryaen

Well, then. All the more reason to get yourself an ankheg shell and save up the 3000gp or whatever it is for Taerom to make you one. You get Full Plate +1 for free just by killin' folks. And if you're enterprising enough to know about the easter egg hole- not everyone is- you get an extra suit of the green stuff.

But checking PLAT06 (Ankheg Plate (+0)) in Near Infinity... here's how the "bonuses" go:

BaseAC1- Normal
BaseAC3- Slashing
BaseAC1- Piercing
BaseAC1- Missile

So you're at a -2 penalty vs slashing weapons- worse than the flat BaseAC0 for Full Plate +1.

And again... no save bonuses.

Roller12

well im not going to debate further since there is no non magical scale armor to compare the Ankheg armor to, unless we count it for one, which is certainly a way to look at it. What im saying is, it is too good with the penalty removed, maybe lowering its base AC to +2 would be better.

Bhryaen

Just as an FYI about the intended viability of Ankheg plate in its description, emphasis added:

This plate mail has been expertly crafted for you by Taerom Fuiruim of Beregost. Sheathed in the chitinous scales of the ankheg, it provides a greater degree of protection than traditional plate mail and is not susceptible to rust. As any world-weary adventurer will tell you, however, the best appreciated aspect of ankheg mail is its light weight and low encumbrance. Monsters come and go but fatigue is a constant enemy. STATISTICS: Armor Class: 1 Weight: 25

So even though I wouldn't be against lowering its BaseAC even further (to be AC2/AC4 vs slashing weapons?), it's intended to be better than regular plate (BaseAC3). However, how many +2 Prot Rings exist in the game to boost it past Full Plate +1 (except v slashing dam... which is like... a lot of the damage...)? And really, why shouldn't Ankheg Plate be the best in the game? It's better by the small increments that normal improvements go by, and it's only better (or equal if you use the +1 Prot Ring) if you block up a ring slot with a Prot Ring- i.e., no Ring of Free Action and Ring of Inviso at the same time (or Holiness or Fire Resistance or...)- something which Full Plate +1 already has without any extra rings needed.

So you get:

- Full Plate +1: Best BaseAC in the game, solid AC0 vs everything, no need for Prot Rings

v

- Ankheg Plate (no enhancement, just bug shells): 2nd best BaseAC in the game, but AC3 vs slashing, need extra Prot Rings to get it close to or past Full Plate +1 to AC0/AC2 v Slashing (Prot Ring +1) and AC-1/AC1 v Slashing (Prot Ring +2).

No huge, sweeping unbalancing that I can see even as is. And with the Black Pits in BG1 now... maybe that +1 difference will help. ;-) (Unless it's slashing damage... or you need to wear Fire Prot and Ring of Free Action at the same time...)

Boaster

I think from a TECHNICAL stand point, you should change the internal naming of the Ankheg plate from being considered "Plate Mail +2" to just "Full Plate" to stiffle this issue of semantics and technicalities.

You would also need to adjust the underlying AC vs Missile, AC vs Slashing and AC vs Piercing bonuses with a change from Plate Mail to Full Plate, or leave it unchanged and have only +3 AC vs Slashing and offset the other bonuses with penalties.

Another reason why Ankheg plate isn't "MAGICAL" is because you do not need to identify it.

Boaster

@Bhryaen I believe the AC vs Slashing is a bonus. So I don't think you'd reduce the AC3 to AC2 vs Slashing.

Tanthalas

I just checked and the bonuses look like this:

Ancheg Plate:
-1 Missile
-1 Piercing
-3 Slashing

Full Plate:
-3 Missile
-3 Piercing
-4 Slashing