@Tanthalas Yes, thanks- totally missed that by rushing before work... Sets BaseAC, then adds extra bonuses- happens on both suits of armor and just as you laid out... But note that Full Plate (nonmagical) has the same extra AC Bonuses as Full Plate +1, and since just like Ankheg Plate, Full Plate has a BaseAC of 1, it outdoes both Ankheg Plate and Field Plate +1 since it too can be worn with the +2 Prot Ring.
Damage Full Plate Full Plate +1 Ankheg Plate Missile -2AC (-4AC w +2 Prot Ring) -3AC 0AC (-2AC with +2 Prot Ring) Piercing -2AC (-4AC w +2 Prot Ring) -3AC 0AC (-2AC with +2 Prot Ring) Slashing -3AC (-5AC w +2 Prot Ring) -4AC -2AC (-4AC with +2 Prot Ring)
So that's just totally unbalancing! Make Full Plate magical or it will destroy the very fabric of Faerun's space-time continuum!
Even with the rare +2 Prot Ring (Cloak maybe?), Ankheg Plate still remains only the temporary best armor you can get to until nabbing the first suit of Full Plate, and it has to be augmented in order to even rival Field Plate or Field Plate +1... and thus remains as it was the 3rd best armor in the game. And I'll gladly suffer the 70lb load for the best AC combo... particularly after the Manual of Gainly Exercise bumps me to STR19...
>I'll gladly suffer the 70lb load for the best AC combo... particularly after the Manual of Gainly Exercise bumps me to STR19
Except this game has player classes and NPCs who dont have 19 str. The "non magical" Angheg scale +2 gives access to a full plate to characters and classes who normally wouldnt or shouldnt have it. In particular it gives Viconia or Branwen, non warriors, an extra tanking boost. For the player created character it allows to skip strength and still have full protection. Which is why it was made magical by Bioware or maybe they were following a rule. They actually seem to care about lore.
Characters with 19 str need not to worry, not sure what your point is, and especially why "I doubt Taerom is using any magical means" is even an argument. This seems to me a pure convenience wish. Btw Drizzt armor is also AC 1, magical.
> Which is why it was made magical by Bioware or maybe they were following a rule. They actually seem to care about lore.
Do you have the 2e source books nearby (or someone else) to check Ankheg scale? Sow we can check how its suppost to work. Because I don't think it should be magical.
Edit: Ankheg scale should have a bace AC of 2 See: http://www.lomion.de/cmm/ankheg.php But Taerom is a mastercrafter, and I don't know if he can ad a point of AC being that.
Yeh, AC2 seems more appropriate. But i still dont see a problem with the original one. Str starved chars can use ankheg but not full plate. Druids can use ankheg but not full plate. Lots of advantages, Its just not an armor for a generic str 19 powerplayer fighter. Thats what full plate is for. Why turn ankheg into one.
"Ecology: Though a hungry ankheg can be fatal to a farmer, it can be quite beneficial to the farmland. Its tunnel system lace the soil with passages for air and water, while the ankheg's waste products add ritch nutrients. The ankheg will eat decayed organic matter in the earth, but it prefers fresh meat. All but the fiercest predators avoid ankhegs. Dried and cured ankheg shells can be made into armor with an AC of 2, and its digestive enzymes can be used as regular acid"
only refrence to ankheg armor i could find Listed in Monstrous Manual. about page 45 (under ankhegs)
I'm just playing through Tutu and had the offer to take my ankheg shell and turn it into armour from old Thunderhammer. He clearly says that he will change the shell into enchanted platemail which means further magical protections shouldn't work (it won't let me take a screenprint...).
An interesting piece o' material you got there. Ankheg if I'm not mistaken? Been a while since I seen the like, but if I remember correctly, it makes a fine set of armor. If properly treated it's comparable to full plate with half the weight! If you're willing to part with your shells I'll give you 500 gold for the lot of them. No more can I offer with business as slow as it is. Iron shortage hurting us all.
and
A shame it is. It could bring quite a bit once finished. How about this; for 4000 gold I'll make it into plate for you instead. It's half my normal rate for working on an exotic but, as I mentioned, business is slow.
and
Good on you. Now it will take me a while to finish, but you will soon have the finest armor in Beregost, if not the entire Sword Coast. Come back in a tenday and I'll have it ready for you.
My guess is, that the magical qualifier on Ankheg Plate has been there for a balance reason, independent for it being logical or not.
Its removal feels a bit like an appeasement to the power gaming crowd. It's my opinion, I know , but I feel, that dealing with incompletion and trying to overcome it by varying means is half of the fun of this game.
For me, removing the magical qualifier on the Ankheg Plate, is on the same level as making a crappy NPC stat better. At least concerning the balancing level.
Ah, the Lamentations... This was neither a bow to powergamers nor a tossing aside of game balance in favor of logic- both of which ought to be mutually inclusive. This fix did absolutely nothing to PLAT05's inherent stats, so if you don't like it, complain to the original designers or, as has already been done, make a feature request for nerfing Ankheg Plate. We will have beat you to that, however, because that is already something on the laundry list in the Beta Dept, albeit low priority.
In the meantime the only thing that has changed is the potential for a whopping extra +2 AC... that is, if and when you can procure those rare later-game items since they aren't found in Naskel farmers' fields, last I looked. And of course they're better given to your tank than to whichever party member is relegated to the inferior Ankheg shell armor, no? The slightly less whopping +1 AC items are, however, more common, but if a single AC advantage can break BG's game balance, the BG's game balance must already be teetering perilously at the edge, particularly as the wearing of said +whopping1 AC items takes up an equipment slot, throwing off one potential advantage in favor of *ahem* +1 AC. Up to you as to how you equip your party. But on that point I'd have a look at my chart above that show +superwhopping2 Ankheg Plate still trailing Full Plate and +1 Full Plate in terms of overall AC advantage.
No, I'd have to conclude that it's preferable to make the game more intuitive and less heavy-handed and arbitrary by treating ankhegs as natural rather than magical creatures and recognizing Taemrom as just a heapin' good armorer rather than an enchanter. If it really did open the sleuce gates for powergaming, it would be a different matter.
There is, mind you, a similar argument to be made against fixing spells, for instance (or anything else for that matter). Take Invisibility, 10' Radius, which recently made its way to the Fixed Forum: the description states that it should be a 24-hour spell, but all along it's been lasting only 1 hour. By fixing it, players get not +1 or +2 extra hours of Invisibility "in favor of logic," but +24! It'll destroy game balance in its filling of logical potholes! *lament* But no, it's the way the spell is supposed to work, the spell cannot compensate for lousy tactics, and there is a plethora of ways that Invisibility, 10' and non-magical Ankheg Plate can be useless in the game. Plus you have to look at the total changes to accurately assess a balance question: a great many other spells and items have been made less potent. Making a great deal out of this fix requires ignoring a great deal of others...
Why is it more intuitive to treat Ankhegs as natural rather than magical? I'd say it's the other way around. Also, according to the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankheg: "An ankheg is described as a monstrous arthropod magical beast"
So not only does is make sense to treat Ankheg Plate as magical armor for balance reasons, but for intuiton as well.
By the way if 'we' are lamentating, then 'you' are as well. But I'd rather call it discussing
My question at this point is: When you see the spell "Invisibislity, 10' Radius" and the description doesnt match the actual effect, how do you know whether the description is wrong or the spell doesnt work correctly?
That's when you go back and check the 2e tomes (check the source to determine what's wrong)
@Rhao I fear it's not that simple. There are many occasions in the game where one will find a mismatch with the original rules. That is, because you've got two different media: a video game and a pen and paper game. Bioware had to make a few adjustments to accomodate that. Balancing the p&p game is a different task than balancing a video game. Just saying. Nevertheless, when in doubt, I'd check the original rules as well
Regarding intuitiveness (only one of the aspects to consider) about whether a large bug beast is magical, I've been consulting this source for my BG creature information: the AD&D 2ed Monstrous Manual... Can't always believe what you read in Wikipedia... http://www.lomion.de/cmm/ankheg.php
No mention of magical. Even magical resistance is set to "nil." In-game it's a big bug that aerates the soil, according to Gerde, but don't hunt too many of them or you'll make her grumpy. Mind you, that same MM entry mentions a 2AC for Ankheg Plate instead of the game's 1AC...
It hasn't been any kind of crisis, however, regarding this bringing everything in the game into an endless chaotic crescendo of arbitrary tweakings. But Shandyr is seeming to grasp the point I was making: the arguments presently put forward on this issue could be used to prevent doing anything to fix the game whatsoever. The regression falls on whether anything was ever technically incorrect. So how could there ever be an enhanced edition? Every enhancement other than preventing game crashes could be relativized into controversy about it not necessarily fixing anything. After all, hansolo is correct that BG is not a strictly PnP game but is the product of picking and choosing what from PnP to implement and how, and really the "right answer" isn't guaranteed. In short, given the "judgment call" nature of a lot of things, taking issue with most seeming tweaks will tend to be merely a way of creating a bickering point against anyone who touches the game at all... and given the popularity of mods which flagrantly meddle with the game, I don't think that's a salient way to approach the matter.
What the vast majority of the fixes implemented by BGEE, including this one, have done is given the game internal consistency, smoother gameplay, robust reworks, and a more well thought-out and integral game environment. The fortunate thing is that once it's released and folks are making their way through it with honest reflections about the new experience, we'll be better able to assess from feedback whether or not individual fixes need a revisit for patch changes. BGEE will remain officially a work in progress for some time...
@Bhryaen Checked the 2nd ed monster manual, you're right. Angheg being magical seems to be from 1st edition.
I also checked the entry for dragons and their hide in the 2nd ed manual. Armor made of their hide seems to be non magical as well, though it can be enchanted, in which case it would be, I guess. Red Dragon's AC is -3, armor made of its hide would be 1 (-3 + 4) according to the rules (dragon entry). So it seems, that the red dragon scale in BG2 with -1 AC is a +2 enchanted red dragon scale. It being magical is logical, at least from the DnD rulings.
Considering this, one could view the plat06.itm as a +1 enchanted ankheg plate. So it should be considered magical - or make it AC 2 and non magical Which one of the two options doesn't really matter to me.
So my suggestion for plat06.itm would be:
---> +1 enchanted Ankheg Plate (magical flagged; AC 1) or ---> Ankheg Plate (not magical flagged; AC 2)
Full Plate with a ring of protection will still be slightly better then Angheg Plate with a ring of protection so long as you are strong enough to afford the difference in weight.
i will never use rings/cloaks/amulets of protection with my ankheg platemail, to keep the spirit alive knowing that those items should not be able to be worn and if its half the weight of full plate, was is it 25lbs when it should be 35lbs? hmmmm
I'd personally be in favor of changing it to a non-magical AC2 armor based off the monster manual, puts it right in between full plate and plate as far as protection - leaving you with something to upgrade to still, but making it a little better than a normal set of plate considering the hefty price of crafting it.
Comments
Yes, thanks- totally missed that by rushing before work... Sets BaseAC, then adds extra bonuses- happens on both suits of armor and just as you laid out... But note that Full Plate (nonmagical) has the same extra AC Bonuses as Full Plate +1, and since just like Ankheg Plate, Full Plate has a BaseAC of 1, it outdoes both Ankheg Plate and Field Plate +1 since it too can be worn with the +2 Prot Ring. So that's just totally unbalancing! Make Full Plate magical or it will destroy the very fabric of Faerun's space-time continuum!
Even with the rare +2 Prot Ring (Cloak maybe?), Ankheg Plate still remains only the temporary best armor you can get to until nabbing the first suit of Full Plate, and it has to be augmented in order to even rival Field Plate or Field Plate +1... and thus remains as it was the 3rd best armor in the game. And I'll gladly suffer the 70lb load for the best AC combo... particularly after the Manual of Gainly Exercise bumps me to STR19...
Except this game has player classes and NPCs who dont have 19 str. The "non magical" Angheg scale +2 gives access to a full plate to characters and classes who normally wouldnt or shouldnt have it. In particular it gives Viconia or Branwen, non warriors, an extra tanking boost. For the player created character it allows to skip strength and still have full protection. Which is why it was made magical by Bioware or maybe they were following a rule. They actually seem to care about lore.
Characters with 19 str need not to worry, not sure what your point is, and especially why "I doubt Taerom is using any magical means" is even an argument. This seems to me a pure convenience wish. Btw Drizzt armor is also AC 1, magical.
Edit: Ankheg scale should have a bace AC of 2 See: http://www.lomion.de/cmm/ankheg.php But Taerom is a mastercrafter, and I don't know if he can ad a point of AC being that.
only refrence to ankheg armor i could find Listed in Monstrous Manual. about page 45 (under ankhegs)
and the acid can be used to taint ore
Are you sure that Tutu didn't change that line?
An interesting piece o' material you got there. Ankheg if I'm not mistaken? Been a while since I seen the like, but if I remember correctly, it makes a fine set of armor. If properly treated it's comparable to full plate with half the weight! If you're willing to part with your shells I'll give you 500 gold for the lot of them. No more can I offer with business as slow as it is. Iron shortage hurting us all.
and
A shame it is. It could bring quite a bit once finished. How about this; for 4000 gold I'll make it into plate for you instead. It's half my normal rate for working on an exotic but, as I mentioned, business is slow.
and
Good on you. Now it will take me a while to finish, but you will soon have the finest armor in Beregost, if not the entire Sword Coast. Come back in a tenday and I'll have it ready for you.
Its removal feels a bit like an appeasement to the power gaming crowd.
It's my opinion, I know
For me, removing the magical qualifier on the Ankheg Plate, is on the same level as making a crappy NPC stat better. At least concerning the balancing level.
In the meantime the only thing that has changed is the potential for a whopping extra +2 AC... that is, if and when you can procure those rare later-game items since they aren't found in Naskel farmers' fields, last I looked. And of course they're better given to your tank than to whichever party member is relegated to the inferior Ankheg shell armor, no? The slightly less whopping +1 AC items are, however, more common, but if a single AC advantage can break BG's game balance, the BG's game balance must already be teetering perilously at the edge, particularly as the wearing of said +whopping1 AC items takes up an equipment slot, throwing off one potential advantage in favor of *ahem* +1 AC. Up to you as to how you equip your party. But on that point I'd have a look at my chart above that show +superwhopping2 Ankheg Plate still trailing Full Plate and +1 Full Plate in terms of overall AC advantage.
No, I'd have to conclude that it's preferable to make the game more intuitive and less heavy-handed and arbitrary by treating ankhegs as natural rather than magical creatures and recognizing Taemrom as just a heapin' good armorer rather than an enchanter. If it really did open the sleuce gates for powergaming, it would be a different matter.
There is, mind you, a similar argument to be made against fixing spells, for instance (or anything else for that matter). Take Invisibility, 10' Radius, which recently made its way to the Fixed Forum: the description states that it should be a 24-hour spell, but all along it's been lasting only 1 hour. By fixing it, players get not +1 or +2 extra hours of Invisibility "in favor of logic," but +24! It'll destroy game balance in its filling of logical potholes! *lament* But no, it's the way the spell is supposed to work, the spell cannot compensate for lousy tactics, and there is a plethora of ways that Invisibility, 10' and non-magical Ankheg Plate can be useless in the game. Plus you have to look at the total changes to accurately assess a balance question: a great many other spells and items have been made less potent. Making a great deal out of this fix requires ignoring a great deal of others...
I'd say it's the other way around.
Also, according to the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankheg:
"An ankheg is described as a monstrous arthropod magical beast"
So not only does is make sense to treat Ankheg Plate as magical armor for balance reasons, but for intuiton as well.
By the way if 'we' are lamentating, then 'you' are as well. But I'd rather call it discussing
I fear it's not that simple. There are many occasions in the game where one will find a mismatch with the original rules. That is, because you've got two different media: a video game and a pen and paper game.
Bioware had to make a few adjustments to accomodate that.
Balancing the p&p game is a different task than balancing a video game.
Just saying.
Nevertheless, when in doubt, I'd check the original rules as well
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/ankheg.php
No mention of magical. Even magical resistance is set to "nil." In-game it's a big bug that aerates the soil, according to Gerde, but don't hunt too many of them or you'll make her grumpy. Mind you, that same MM entry mentions a 2AC for Ankheg Plate instead of the game's 1AC...
It hasn't been any kind of crisis, however, regarding this bringing everything in the game into an endless chaotic crescendo of arbitrary tweakings. But Shandyr is seeming to grasp the point I was making: the arguments presently put forward on this issue could be used to prevent doing anything to fix the game whatsoever. The regression falls on whether anything was ever technically incorrect. So how could there ever be an enhanced edition? Every enhancement other than preventing game crashes could be relativized into controversy about it not necessarily fixing anything. After all, hansolo is correct that BG is not a strictly PnP game but is the product of picking and choosing what from PnP to implement and how, and really the "right answer" isn't guaranteed. In short, given the "judgment call" nature of a lot of things, taking issue with most seeming tweaks will tend to be merely a way of creating a bickering point against anyone who touches the game at all... and given the popularity of mods which flagrantly meddle with the game, I don't think that's a salient way to approach the matter.
What the vast majority of the fixes implemented by BGEE, including this one, have done is given the game internal consistency, smoother gameplay, robust reworks, and a more well thought-out and integral game environment. The fortunate thing is that once it's released and folks are making their way through it with honest reflections about the new experience, we'll be better able to assess from feedback whether or not individual fixes need a revisit for patch changes. BGEE will remain officially a work in progress for some time...
Checked the 2nd ed monster manual, you're right. Angheg being magical seems to be from 1st edition.
I also checked the entry for dragons and their hide in the 2nd ed manual. Armor made of their hide seems to be non magical as well, though it can be enchanted, in which case it would be, I guess.
Red Dragon's AC is -3, armor made of its hide would be 1 (-3 + 4) according to the rules (dragon entry).
So it seems, that the red dragon scale in BG2 with -1 AC is a +2 enchanted red dragon scale.
It being magical is logical, at least from the DnD rulings.
Considering this, one could view the plat06.itm as a +1 enchanted ankheg plate.
So it should be considered magical - or make it AC 2 and non magical
Which one of the two options doesn't really matter to me.
So my suggestion for plat06.itm would be:
---> +1 enchanted Ankheg Plate (magical flagged; AC 1)
or
---> Ankheg Plate (not magical flagged; AC 2)