New Proficiency Type: Unarmed (Fists)
Dee
Member Posts: 10,447
The subject line says it all. Create a new line to allow characters to become proficient with their fists. The obvious military application to this is that a fighter could become specialized and mastered (and grand mastered) with his or her fists, but it would also just make sense in general.
Let any class take it, with the normal restrictions and benefits. Consider letting the monk put two (maybe as many as five?) pips in it (for an early-level boost), but otherwise it's pretty straight-forward.
Thoughts?
Let any class take it, with the normal restrictions and benefits. Consider letting the monk put two (maybe as many as five?) pips in it (for an early-level boost), but otherwise it's pretty straight-forward.
Thoughts?
9
Comments
(To clarify further, I would also grant the monk a free pip in "Unarmed" to reflect the way his fists already work. But that's minor.)
If it's too much for the monk to gain specialization, though, it could just as easily be restricted to a single pip for non-warriors (swashies being an obvious exception).
Yes and no--it could just not show the off-hand fist attacks. But that wouldn't be as fun to watch.
I think there is a chunk in Players Hand Book, I know theres a bunch in Fighter's Book and Combat and Tactic Players Options, and Complete Book of Humanoids, Monster's Manual and Dungeon Masters Guide have a little paragraph or two about unarmed combat/Bar Fights etc.
I'd like to see unarmed proficiency.
Worst case, if it somehow made Monks "too good", then they could slow their fist damage progression down one Die size and maintain the overall potency (with possibly an early game boost and even slighter late-game boost). Since Monks can't benefit from specialisation-based extra attacks as a non-Warrior class, they'd benefit comparatively little from specialisation compared to other classes, whilst still being the clear cut winner with their other unarmed advantages (and increasing their minimum damage would be magically delicious).
Keep the - points to THACO with the off hand as just the added difficulty of killing an opponent with your bare hands. If you put point into two weapon fighting just means that you are better at making both fists more dangerous.
I'm up for giving monks specialization...if you remove their increased fist damage and extra attack progression. That IS their specialization in unarmed combat.
Also every class would get a free pip in unarmed since as per the rules ALL classes have basic unarmed proficiency. Monk's would merely start with ** which would unlock lethal damage as well as the associated bonuses for specialization (they use the warrior thac0 table when unarmed so it should give them any extra attacks they're due without any trouble). Ultimately, allow them to GM in Unarmed, and get extra attacks at the same rate as a fighter, and +1 for fighting unarmed with their off-hand free (for a total of 5 at 13 with GM) and a total fist bonus of 5-8 counting specialization, before other modifiers.
IF you want anymore then that though, just leave the system alone, since it's worked perfectly fine in general since BG1, and for Monk's in BG2.
So the earlier question that sparked this thread about whether you're proficient with your fists, the answer would be yes.
In which case, @ZanathKariashi's idea of giving everyone a free pip in Unarmed makes sense. Most characters wouldn't be able to exceed that, but a monk could achieve GM, and so could a fighter.
I'd then want to give the monk an ability similar to the Kensai's, a +1 bonus to attack and damage with his unarmed attacks every three levels, to replace the increased damage die.
The problem I have with implementing this right now is that Monks THAC0 and damage has already been designed around not having this.
I also think it's been pointed out several times that Monks are weak at lower levels but get more powerful at higher levels. Adding this proficiency to give them a boost at lower levels is no different than giving Mages more HP at level1.
The "unbalance" of it (if you think of it that way) is just part of the class, which is no different than the pro/con of other classes.
Right; although to me, that's a separate issue from the feature being requested.
If it doesn't make sense from a balance perspective to allow the monk to specialize in "unarmed" (I suspect that it wouldn't cause any problems), then you simply don't allow it. But making it an available proficiency for warrior classes makes it a new option that doesn't unbalance other classes.
(The Brawler base class gives up bonus feats (aside from automatic weapon focus and specialization unarmed at 4 and 6 respectively), all simple and martial weapon proficiencies, and heavy armor in order to get class based bonus damage to unarmed, most people just go with a monk instead unless alignment conflicts or the monk multi-class rules are enforced (and even then a 3 lvl dip is worth starting lawful for just for all the free feats and bonuses it gives)
I'd see it as a low-priority adjustment, however. I don't see most players making use of this proficiency.
Monks are already specialised with fists - hyper specialised in fact. Most of their levelling up abilities increase the power of their fists far above and beyond even grandmastery in a weapon style.
I wouldn't have any objection to warriors being able to put more than one point into fists if they wanted to specalise in fists (and down to grandmastery if they so desired). But the only reason for doing so would be roleplaying reasons - it wouldn't offer any gameplay advantages over a normal weapon.
Actually, the first is in the SRD (Improved Unarmed Strike) and the second is in Tome of Battle, which was written and published by WotC, so by no means third party. That said, Tome of Battle is widely reputed as being overpowered (much like every other 3.5e splatbook), but "Superior Unarmed Strike" isn't why. In fact, most DMs I've played with have disallowed everything in that book except for that feat.
People allow it because they often add a bunch of extra restrictions on being monks to prevent a lot of OP munchkin-ism of going on, but don't want to have to listen to people whine that they can't make their unarmed Übermensch character due to the ruling.