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[Kit Idea] Gladiator - Feedback?

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  • WispWisp Member Posts: 1,102
    Unfortunately, as is often the case with brainstorming kits, the cold, hard reality of what the engine can not do often quashes many good ideas.

    - At 10th level (and every five levels thereafter) the Gladiator gains a use of the Knockdown ability, slamming an opponent to the ground, stunning him for 6 rounds. A succesful save va Paralyation reduces this to 3.
    As it happens, there is no "knockdown" effect. There is knockback (wing buffet) and various incapacitating effects (sleep, stun etc.) but there are various immunities against the latter (notably Chaotic Commands, which protects against pretty much all of it).

    - At 16th level, once per day the Gladiator can activate Final Showdown. To activate this ability, he marks a target. For five rounds, he gains a +3 bonus to attack and damage against this target. If he kills his opponent in this time, all enemies in a 30ft radius must take a save vs spells or be feared for 1d4 rounds due to the brutal nature of the finishing move.
    You can get +X to hit and damage, but it will be against everyone, or against a specific creature type. You can't get +X damage against a specific, arbitrary someone. The fear stuff can't be done either. @smeagolheart's Frenzied Assault can be done.

    -When fighting more than three opponents, the Gladiator gets a -1 to hit and damage per extra opponent
    This is yet another thing you can not do.

  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    edited July 2012
    @Drugar I like what you've done there.

    I was thinking of something like your "Final Showdown" the other day, but I was thinking of calling it "Finishing Maneuver." Final Showdown is really cool!

    However, I do disagree with certain aspects of what you're suggesting. Mainly the penalty for being surrounded. This is all ready taken into account with the -4 AC vs Missiles. This penalty is significant enough, because consider being jumped by a group of bandits, who usually are wielding bows.

    Proficiency disadvantage should remain unchanged. Unable to put points into Ranged weapons.

    The Sword and Shield proficiency I suppose should be allowed to negate the -4 AC vs Missiles.
    GLADIATOR: A gladiator is a trained fighter in the arts of combat, most often not by willing trade. To survive, a gladiator must always be ahead of the curve and able to outwit opponents to stay alive in the arena. Much more disciplined than the normal fighter, the gladiator gains greater combat resilience with every level. A gladiator, in the arena, is seldom if ever in possession of ranged weapons and heavy/bulky armor and therefore has no use for them.

    Advantages:
    - Bonus +2 damage with two-handed weapons.

    - Every 5th Level (1/5/10/15...), the gladiator gains an additional +1 AC.

    - At Level 6, and every 3rd Level thereafter (6/9/12/15...), May cast "Ensnaring Strike" once per day, which for the next 12 seconds (two rounds) opponents must save versus Paralyzation or be slowed for 9 seconds. At Level 12, opponents must instead save versus Paralyzation at -2 or be Held for 9 seconds. At Level 18, opponents must instead save versus Paralyzation at -4 or be rendered Unconscious for 9 seconds.

    - At Level 16, and every 4th Level thereafter (16/20/24/28...), once per day the Gladiator can activate "Final Showdown." For 18 seconds (three rounds), he gains a +3 bonus to attack and damage. Each time an enemy is killed by the Gladiator, all enemies in a 30ft radius must take a save vs death or suffer Morale Failure for 12-18 seconds (2d3 rounds) due to the brutal nature of the finishing move.

    Disadvantages:
    - Cannot be Lawful aligned.
    - Cannot dual or multi class.
    - Cannot wear armor beyond Studded Leather.
    - Cannot become proficient in ranged weapons.
    - AC penalty versus Missiles, -4.
    Adding the Bonus +2 damage with two-handed weapons will force the player to choose between negating the -4 AC by wearing a shield, or going for extra offensive power with two-handed weapons.

    "Throw Dust" replaced by "Ensnaring Strike."
  • GemHoundGemHound Member Posts: 801
    Unfortunately, as is often the case with brainstorming kits, the cold, hard reality of what the engine can not do often quashes many good ideas.

    - At 10th level (and every five levels thereafter) the Gladiator gains a use of the Knockdown ability, slamming an opponent to the ground, stunning him for 6 rounds. A succesful save va Paralyation reduces this to 3.
    As it happens, there is no "knockdown" effect. There is knockback (wing buffet) and various incapacitating effects (sleep, stun etc.) but there are various immunities against the latter (notably Chaotic Commands, which protects against pretty much all of it).
    Well, it could just knock the enemy unconscious, so technically, there is one and there isn't one.

    - At 16th level, once per day the Gladiator can activate Final Showdown. To activate this ability, he marks a target. For five rounds, he gains a +3 bonus to attack and damage against this target. If he kills his opponent in this time, all enemies in a 30ft radius must take a save vs spells or be feared for 1d4 rounds due to the brutal nature of the finishing move.
    You can get +X to hit and damage, but it will be against everyone, or against a specific creature type. You can't get +X damage against a specific, arbitrary someone. The fear stuff can't be done either. @smeagolheart's Frenzied Assault can be done.
    Maybe if they could program in a little "If target dies by gladiator's blow" part, but otherwise agreed.

    -When fighting more than three opponents, the Gladiator gets a -1 to hit and damage per extra opponent
    This is yet another thing you can not do.

    Agreed.

  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    edited July 2012
    @geselle
    Yes, shields were common. And actually the kit says nothing about them not being able to use Bows, or Shields at all. The kit just cannot put points into range weapons or the Sword-Shield proficiency.
    Geez, no shield and ranged weapon proficiency means almost the same thing as having no clue how to use that weapon shield etc. effectively. Gladiators should be well trained in using shields or bows depending on their status.

    Gladiator is not a pit fighter or street brawler. This was mainstream blood sports, and this means they were well trained to fight, whatever weapon they had to use.

    Btw.: Gladiators have always been inferior to soldiers, both in discipline and effectiveness, simply for the reason, that gladiators practiced sports, but rarely fought in an army. They were excellent combatants against single opponents, but in terms of discipline and tactics they were no match for real soldiers.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    @geselle
    Yes, shields were common. And actually the kit says nothing about them not being able to use Bows, or Shields at all. The kit just cannot put points into range weapons or the Sword-Shield proficiency.
    Geez, no shield and ranged weapon proficiency means almost the same thing as having no clue how to use that weapon shield etc. effectively. Gladiators should be well trained in using shields or bows depending on their status.

    Gladiator is not a pit fighter or street brawler. This was mainstream blood sports, and this means they were well trained to fight, whatever weapon they had to use.
    So let's just replace the name Fighter with Gladiator?
  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    edited July 2012
    No, your class just feels completely off, -4 AC against ranged weapons means the gladiator is reckless, but they never were. They were extremely cautious, out of fear of injury. And it doesn't make sense either: Is he running into arrows on purpose or what?!
    Also they weren't using two handed weapons, sure its D&D but still, the crowd doesn't want to see their champions being slaughtered. Two-handed weapons were a great way to end in your enemy's blade. Alignment restrictions don't make sense either, it doesn't matter who you were before, once you were enslaved you had to be a gladiator if you were chosen, or you'd be killed by one , heck you even had to obey rules, otherwise you'd end up in the arena unarmed (damnatio ad gladium). If anything they shouldn't be allowed to be of chaotic alignment.
    The special skills are fine, it fits the gladiator theme, nothing against that, even though ensnaring strike seems a lot stronger than final showdown.
    Honestly I don't like the constant flow of gladiator kit ideas. They just don't seem distinct enough from common fighters/soldiers to make a good class kit, but thats my opinion.


    Short version: Gladiators are soldiers without knowledge of tactics and military drill/maneuvers, they were, compared to veteran soldiers, inferior in any way.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    edited July 2012
    Honestly I don't like the constant flow of gladiator kit ideas.
    If it's a constant flow, then there is a demand. Where there is demand, there ought to be supply to fulfill that demand.
    but thats my opinion.
    Agreed :)


    The "Lawful" restriction is because... well, he's a trained fighter. You cannot obey the general law of humanity of "Thou shalt not kill" if you're in the business of KILLING for SPORT!
  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    So lawful evil people don't kill? As a gladiator you had to live by the rules, or you are dead. Slaves breaking rules were never treated well.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    edited July 2012
    Gladiators were often Criminals.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    Missile AC Penalty and two-hand bonus are trade offs.

    Ensnaring Strike could just be changed to Ensnare, be a ranged spell-casting ability. Of course the final spell effect wouldn't make sense to render the target unconscious. Would need minor adjusting.
  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    Yes in later periods, but still they had to live by the rules. Just get caught once stealing anything. You'd end up fighting lions or gladiators, unarmed.
  • WispWisp Member Posts: 1,102

    The "Lawful" restriction is because... well, he's a trained fighter. You cannot obey the general law of humanity of "Thou shalt not kill" if you're in the business of KILLING for SPORT!
    But lawfulness is about acting in a consistent manner, in rigorous accordance with whatever moral code or code of conduct the lawful character happens to subscribe to (be it "good" or "evil"). It isn't about obeying the law.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    I'm naming my gladiator Spartapus, which is completely different from that similar soundingly named gladiator.
    My question to you all with all your knowledge of historical gladiators (criminals and rule obeying or not etc) is how are gladiators portrayed in the forgotten realms? We should be planning those type of guys not so much real life historical ones.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    And technically speaking Neutral Good and Neutral Evil would still allow for the character to be "lawful" de facto.

    I just cannot imagine a law-biding (and therefore lawful) man also being a gladiator, or a criminal.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    The debate can go back and forth.

    But plainly, the Non-Lawful restriction is just apart of the Kit idea.
  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    Being a gladiator had many positive sides. You got enough to eat. Also you earned quite a lot of money, once you became successful and famous (only new gladiators had to face death; famous gladiators only died in accidents), and eventually you earned your freedom. Many poor people joined their ranks, preferring to fight to death over starving to death. Gladiators usually consisted of: Criminals, poor people, prisoners of war, slaves and former soldiers.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    Gladiators usually consisted of: Criminals, poor people, prisoners of war, slaves and former soldiers.
    Agreed.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    edited July 2012
    GLADIATOR: A gladiator is a trained fighter in the arts of combat, most often not by willing trade. To survive, a gladiator must always be ahead of the curve and able to outwit opponents to stay alive in the arena. Much more disciplined than the normal fighter, the gladiator gains greater combat resilience with every level. A gladiator, in the arena, is seldom if ever in possession of ranged weapons and heavy/bulky armor and therefore has no use for them.

    Advantages:
    - Bonus +2 damage with two-handed weapons.

    - Every 5th Level (1/5/10/15...), the gladiator gains an additional +1 AC.

    - At Level 6, and every 3rd Level thereafter (6/9/12/15...), May cast "Ensnare" once per day, where target opponent must save versus Paralyzation or be slowed for 9 seconds. At Level 14, opponents must instead save versus Paralyzation at -4 or be Held for 9 seconds.

    - At Level 16, and every 4th Level thereafter (16/20/24/28...), once per day the Gladiator can activate "Final Showdown." For 18 seconds (three rounds), he gains a +3 bonus AC, +3 bonus to attack and damage. With each strike, target opponent must save versus death -4 or Break Morale.

    Disadvantages:
    - Cannot be Lawful aligned.
    - Cannot dual or multi class.
    - Cannot wear armor beyond Studded Leather.
    - Cannot become proficient in ranged weapons (but may still use ranged weapons).
    - AC penalty versus Missiles, -4.
    Forces the player to choose a path of offense or defense (with shield in hand).
    - Bonus +2 damage with two-handed weapons.
    - AC penalty versus Missiles, -4.

    Can use any weapon a fighter can use, but just without the benefits.
    - Cannot become proficient in ranged weapons (but may still use ranged weapons).

    Just part of the Kit.
    - Cannot be Lawful aligned.
    - Cannot dual or multi class.

    Limited armor option, plus a counter balance in time.
    - Every 5th Level (1/5/10/15...), the gladiator gains an additional +1 AC.
    - Cannot wear armor beyond Studded Leather.

    Ensnaring Strike changed to "Ensnare." No more 'Unconscious' potential.

    "Final Show Down" provides an additional +3 AC bonus.
    Post edited by Boaster on
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    I think I'll just change drop the Gladiator Kit and work on a different one that makes "more sense" to people. However, for some, I just don't think it will make any sense ever.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Its not a question of this not making sense. Personally, I just didn't agree with the basic premise of the kit.
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