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Achievements (GFWL and/or WP7/8)

CredgeCredge Member Posts: 3
edited December 2012 in Feature Requests
Any chance of a release that will have some type of achievements? I don't know how hard and/or expensive it is to get a game to be a Game for Windows Live, but I'd gladly pay double for a BG1 copy that gives me an excuse to play it again for achievements. I mention Windows Phone 7/8 as that would be another route that also would make it portable (but I think that version is limited to 200 GS, which is an insulting amount for a game with this much content).

I like RPGs, and am a sucker for both achievements and nostalgia; BG1 with achievements would get me on all fronts.

Just to be clear, I know alot of people hate GFWL, I don't want it to be mandatory, I want it to be optional (or a seperate version, which may be necessary anyway if you have to charge extra to cover licensing and/or production fees to make it a GFWL).
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  • WooWoo Member Posts: 135
    Just no. Play the game to play the game, not for achievements. If you have to be driven by fake out of game trophies to play a game then perhaps its not the game you want to play, you need some level of self worth/accomplishment/validation, perhaps you should get off the computer and do something IRL. Games are for fun/relaxing, sometimes this involves challenging yourself, but beating the challenge/puzzle etc is the reward, not some "grats you leveled up or killed some obscure monster" 'trophy'

    Achievements and non-traditional expansion "DLC's" ruin gaming. Game too hard? spend 10$ and get this awesome game you will never replace at the very start of the game!!!!!


    Most people refuse to even play old hard games now because they don't have patience or they are too hard.
  • FeatherFeather Member Posts: 20
    Woo said:

    Games are for fun/relaxing, sometimes this involves challenging yourself, but beating the challenge/puzzle etc is the reward, not some "grats you leveled up or killed some obscure monster" 'trophy'

    Most people refuse to even play old hard games now because they don't have patience or they are too hard.

    Well, achievements are just like extra challenges/puzzles added. Additional possibilities to challenge yourself. There are some people around here that play solo runs or try to beat the game as quick as possible. This is their way of making a game challenging that they played already and that wouldn't challenge them anymore playing it the normal way.
    Achievements offer just that: ways to have some extra challenge and i think, they are a good way to add replay value.
    What would change if there were some "finish the game in solo mode" or "finish the game without using magical items" or "save up 30k gold" or whatever achievements added?

    I can't see that hurting the game in any way. It just adds some self-imposing challenge-propositions to the game (for those that don't challenge themselves this way already).
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited January 2013
    I'm not really against achievements per say, since people do come up with their own to add some extra spice after they've beaten something into the ground, I just personally dislike Achievement-whores, since the worst ones don't even care about the game, or it's story, it's all about the 'cheivos. And unfortunately, since Achievement-whores are becoming a norm, game developers realized "hey, the game doesn't have to be fun or intuitive, as long as it has achievements those ignorant sheep while buy it anyway just to satisfy their ego, so lets make a bunch of cheap garbage and score. And then, once we've got them hooked, put everything via a client slowly phasing in an always online model, that in the future once non-client based game distribution is extinct, then we can charge the big bucks for subscriptions to keep their account active, or it wipes their achievements and prevents using their games...bwhaha, we so smart."
  • CredgeCredge Member Posts: 3
    Dear Woo:

    Seeing as how I asked if achievements could be a separate, entirely optional, and possibly completely different release: getting on here to complain about my request makes you look like a jerk whose only purpose in life is to tell everyone how they're doing it wrong when they don't enjoy something exactly the way you do.

    I've already beaten the original BGs about 5-7 times each, so it's not anything all that new to me. I've played plenty of old and/or hard games, but I am also an achievement chaser. I'll get around to replaying it again at some point. Achievements would simply accelerate that time table from "within the next 3 years" to "within the next 3 weeks."

    I'll agree with you on the DLC thing; I hate it when companies seem to actually hold back on the game just so they can release DLC and get more money out of you. But bitching about something extra that does not in any way impact your regular gaming experience, thereby making your only purpose to be raining on other people's fun? That just makes you look like a petty douche.

    And btw Zanath: I may be an achievements whore; but I only go for it on games I actually care about. i.e. I have 1k/1k on Vesperia (200+ hours) but I haven't touched Avatar (takes about 5 minutes). I like having something extra to do on a game I already like, and I think that is how most people are, otherwise every person on XBL would have 1k/1k on Avatar: The Burning Earth.

    In fact, if anything, the achievement whores are the most likely audience to be ignored, as they are only going to be renting the easy achievement games. Seriously, when is the last time you heard someone say "oh dude, this new game is going to let me get 1k GS in like 5 minutes, I've gotta go spend $60 on it." Never, it's more likely "I'm going to rent the easy one, then spend my $60 on a copy of a good/deep game (like BG1) that I can take my time playing"
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited January 2013
    Note, I did say the Worst ones. 2ndly, you can't rent computer games. You either buy or you don't get your achievements since most these days are tied to some distribution client that make piracy virtually impossible. While it is a valid statement about consoles I do agree, they've long been on the downward spiral to the point I stopped caring about them, largely (I still keep an eye out, but thus far every game that interested me has either been cancelled, changed direction mid-development, or was too ambitious for it's time constraints and ended up a horrible piece of buggy garbage). Computer games though due to their greater capacity for customization, and freedom from technically limitations by rapidly aging hardware, have exponential potential for growth, that is often crushed by game developers attempting to hold the reigns to prevent piracy, or for the particularly assholish to prevent modding in general. Every game, pretty much, in the last 5 years has been a cheaply made remake (including games that use virtually identical mechanics to other titles i.e. every damn shooter since Halo: Combat Evolved), a sub-par money grab, or a casual focused time killer. Nothing wrong with that last one per say, they have their time and place, but when that's the BEST thing that's come out, it's a sign things going horribly wrong.
  • Chaotic_GoodChaotic_Good Member Posts: 255
    edited January 2013
    I think it would be awesome.

    Challenges:
    The Reaper - Complete game with no party deaths
    Immortal - Complete game with no PC deaths
    6'4" - Complete the game with no save file
    I'm too Hardcore for my shirt - Complete the challenges above in one play through
    One is the loneliest number - Complete game with only PC
    Sticky Situation - Divide a green slime 6x before you kill it/them

    Achivments:
    Level 4 - Die to spider venom


    The learner always begins by finding fault, but the scholar sees the positive merit in everything. -Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel
  • CredgeCredge Member Posts: 3
    edited January 2013

    I think it would be awesome.

    Challenges:
    The Reaper - Complete game with no party deaths
    Immortal - Complete game with no PC deaths
    6'4" - Complete the game with no save file
    I'm too Hardcore for my shirt - Complete the challenges above in one play through
    One is the loneliest number - Complete game with only PC
    Sticky Situation - Divide a green slime 6x before you kill it/them

    Achivments:
    Level 4 - Die to spider venom

    Finally someone saying something with some relevance to the thread. Personally, I would have an achievement for breaking 161k xp on a character (the original TOTSC xp cap).

    As for the rest of you; if you don't like achievements, that is fine, but it will also have ZERO IMPACT on your own gaming experience, so stop bitching about it. This is not a poll or a place to start an argument about how people who enjoy their games differently than you are all wrong.

    I loved this game and would consider it an honor to have it (and BG2, and PST) all up on my Live Account at 1,000/1,000, even if I have to sink hundreds of hours into it to do so.

    What I am partially looking for; however, is some type of response as to how difficult/costly/likely it would be to implement (via GFWL or whatever). This is the part where I'm looking for a response from a developer, and not a random player that is whining about something that does not affect him/her.
  • WooWoo Member Posts: 135


    The Reaper - Complete game with no party deaths
    Immortal - Complete game with no PC deaths

    save spam/reload yea those are challenging.
  • WendschlagWendschlag Member Posts: 33
    The game doesn't need entitlements to be fun nor powerhouse GFX. This old school D&D RPG.
  • LMTR14LMTR14 Member Posts: 169

    I think it would be awesome.

    Challenges:
    Immortal - Complete game with no PC deaths
    6'4" - Complete the game with no save file
    I'm too Hardcore for my shirt - Complete the challenges above in one play through


    with no save file, obviously you aren't allowed to die, ever. all 3 are the same thing, LOL

    anyway, achievements are one of the stupidest gaming inventions of the 21th century (especially the ones you get for simply PLAYING THE GAME, this is beyond retarded).

    unlockables for completing challenges, but no point- and rewardless achievement crap!
  • DarkcloudDarkcloud Member Posts: 302
    I see a few problems: Using something like Steam or GFWL is a problem because the game seems to have some slight graphic errors with the overlay sticking for a while even after closing. The other thing is that you need an API to tell the Achievement system, that you did certain things. I'm not sure what is easily measurable with the games engine and what isn't.
  • CredgeCredge Member Posts: 3
    edited January 2013
    Darkcloud said:

    I see a few problems: Using something like Steam or GFWL is a problem because the game seems to have some slight graphic errors with the overlay sticking for a while even after closing. The other thing is that you need an API to tell the Achievement system, that you did certain things. I'm not sure what is easily measurable with the games engine and what isn't.

    Are you saying that the game itself has an overlay graphical error that would interfere with GFWL/Steam? Or that the GFWL/Steam overlay has a problem sticking around that causes graphical errors?

    As for the awarding of achievements, you'd have to insert the commands into source code and/or script files (which the company would basically need the access/rights to in order to make the changes they've already made so far).

    The commands are likely fairly simple, as you could get them in Fallout 3's PC version with a single console command. I figure something along the lines of inserting this into the script/function that runs when you beat the last boss (in pseudo-code):

    if difficulty is greater than or equal to insane, and achievementX has not yet been obtained, award achievementX

    Would award an achievement if you beat the last boss on difficulty "Insane." Some type of commands are likely already built into the GFWL API since achievements seem to be mandatory in that system (If any of you saw my earlier example, I changed it from C++ to pseudo-code as a syntax specific example is largely irrelevant in this context).

    Unnecessary code examples aside: I'd expect the worst/hardest part about getting a game on Steam or GFWL likely comes from the red-tape, paperwork, and/or licensing fees. Though I've seen games that support both, so I can't imagine it must be too terrible a task, but that could depend on the size of the company doing it, and if they have prior history with either/both service(s), and how many games they are putting on it/them.
    Post edited by Credge on
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Credge said:


    Just to be clear, I know alot of people hate GFWL

    You gravely understate the number of people who hate GFWL :p

  • WendschlagWendschlag Member Posts: 33
    Microsoft hates it too.
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  • SelabocSelaboc Member Posts: 64
    There's also another achievement system in the game. It's called experience points/leveling up.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    So maybe we should now consider beating game's plot as achievement system?
  • AendaeronBluescaleAendaeronBluescale Member Posts: 335
    edited July 2013
    Hello,

    don't know whether it was already asked, cannot browse 72 pages of search results effectively, but what about Achievement badges?
    * Bronze badges: Easy-to-reach ones i.e. some side-quests, main quest milestones.
    * Silver badges: Harder to reach ones, like ones for a normal playthrough or romances.
    * Gold badges: Intended for certain, possibly well known hard-to-achieve challenges.

    What about some achievements that even can only be achieved in BG:EE but can be carried over to BG2:EE or what about achievement that can only be obtained by completing some things through the whole trilogy?
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Since they serve no purpose, at all, no real reason to add them.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Come on guys, you know you want it...

    image
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    Certainly no useless achievements- there is one console game which gives you an achievement for just starting the game. :P I'd call them "Challenges". "Beat the game using only a quarterstaff as a weapon". "Never level up your character".
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110
    @LadyRhian, there was an achievement just for completing the tutorial/character creation section of Fallout: New Vegas, it was called "Ain't That a Kick in the Head." It's literally the only achievement I have on Steam.

    I think they are overrated and pointless. A gimmick. Isn't beating the game the achievement? We didn't need achievements back in the 80s and 90s, there was a thing called the game score, experience, level, or spendable character upgrade points. Are people going to play BG:EE with more intensity than before? What, exactly, would be the purpose aside from giving the player some sort of extended e-peen, or whatever they call it?
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    I disagree about the pointless for one reason - they do provide some encouragement for doing things differently (or in a way you hadn't considered). I don't want them in the game, but wouldn't be angry if they were. The reason I don't want them is that I think the time developing such things could be far better served by work on bugs or the elusive (and perhaps mythical) BG2:EE. I say mythical because we have no idea what will fall out of the aftermath of the current legal situation.

    I do think the achievement thing is sort of an encouragement to play games that have them or whatnot (maybe it's also for bragging rights?). I just play games and don't really think about the trophy case, myself.
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110

    I disagree about the pointless for one reason - they do provide some encouragement for doing things differently (or in a way you hadn't considered).

    I would strongly disagree. If a game is worth exploring, then you shouldn't need achievements to coerce you into doing something. I am almost certain that most people who played BG back when it was first released tried all sorts of non-standard things. I know one guy who used his chaotic evil character to kill a bunch of NPCs just to see what would happen, then killed the Flaming Fist guards as they attacked. And from a first glance at this thread, a lot of people here have tried doing ... how should we say it, unorthodox things?

    Trophies, more often than not, force a player to do a certain thing in order to obtain it; which would probably be fine if the player isn't a completionist (unfortunately, there are a lot more completionists than most people would like to think). Even if that thing goes against the player's play style.

    If there was an achievement for using werebears in order to kill Drizzt, most people trophy hunters would do that just for the sake of getting the trophy rather than actually wanting to do it. In essence, the game becomes more about wanting to collect trophies rather than actually enjoying the game.

    A typical example of how silly they are, or can be: in Grand Theft Auto IV, there is an achievement for flying under all the bridges. I discovered it by flying under one of the bridges, because I was exploring. I didn't even know there was an achievement for that. Another example, once the XBox One was revealed, there is a I guy I know who decided that he was going to get one, even with all the negativity. His answer, "because my Live Gamerscore means too much to me to just give it up."

    It would be different if the 'trophy' actually unlocked something, rather than giving the player some '+rep' for their 'gamer score'. Unlock some in-game concept art, added bonuses, or areas if certain criteria are met, but leave these Steam and Live 'achievements' out of it.

    /end rant

    :D
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    In the Dynasty Warriors games, the "achievements" unlocked playable characters. That seems to me to be the concept that started the idea of achievements, but the execution of them in modern gaming (i.e. "Any new game has to have achievements") is very, very poor. That's not to say that the games themselves aren't good, but the system isn't a good way to add substance to the games.
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110
    Dee said:

    In the Dynasty Warriors games, the "achievements" unlocked playable characters. That seems to me to be the concept that started the idea of achievements, but the execution of them in modern gaming (i.e. "Any new game has to have achievements") is very, very poor. That's not to say that the games themselves aren't good, but the system isn't a good way to add substance to the games.

    @Dee, several games I've played in the past unlocked things like concept art in-game that could be accessed from the main menu (which sounds like a nice idea—in theory—that could be done with the contest winners using a similar approach - hint, hint (I'm joking)), or unlock-able characters in certain games; those fighter games (e.g. Street Fighter) spring to mind. Where that actually has substance and adds its own re-playability, while also challenging the player to do certain—in some cases, very specific—actions in order to unlock, it doesn't stop a player from simply downloading a save game or mod/hack/work around in order to unlock the content.

    The idea of modern achievements being unlocked and stored/synchronised on a remote host/cloud, means you cannot simply download a save game and have all the achievements unlocked (people who try to hack a gamer score or achievements on most services will be banned form those respective services), as they only unlock once you actually activate the trigger for the reward.

    It's perfect in theory.

    As you say, though, the execution leaves a lot to be desired. Most, if not all, achievements these days are rewarded for just doing stuff that you would do normally, either as part of the main game or as part of the exploration in-game. Saints Row: The Third example. Most of the rewards on that list are obtained from just playing the game normally with very little deviation, simply by completing the missions in order.

    Problem is, these days people seem content with having a Steam level (Steam has levels now?! What is the world coming to... I knew it had a gamer score before, but now it actually has experience and levels), Live Gamerscore, or PSN Trophies (even to the detriment of common sense in some cases, it seems). The execution isn't going to change any time soon.

    People seem to put a lot of weight on those respective scorecards... and I honestly have no idea why.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Except Steam level has nothing to do with achievements....you get xp for completing badges by collecting trading cards (gained from simply playing certain games (or certain other promotions), your actions there in are unimportant...that you're simply playing is all it cares about), or participating in steam events. And the only thing your steam level effects is the size of your fiends list...that's it.

    The badge crafting itself is actually more useful then any steam achievement, since it tends to give you special theme items associated with the game you created the badge for, which can then be either used or traded via the market for steam-cash to buy games or other cards with.
  • Draith012Draith012 Member Posts: 174
    edited July 2013
    Well if achievements unlocked concept arts, then I would take the time to do them. I love concept art for games. Helps you enjoy the mood of the game like Alice: Return to Madness.

    If you particularly fond of a game or grown attached to its characters, then you would enjoy official art for one or both of these things.

    Plus we had a similar idea for Black Pits somewhere in these forums. Where beating it would unlock features introduced into the original BG game. Not that the OP was offering the idea as a 'pop-up: you earned 15p' achievement system. But it is a reward of sorts.
  • Troodon80Troodon80 Member, Developer Posts: 4,110

    Except Steam level has nothing to do with achievements....you get xp for completing badges by collecting trading cards (gained from simply playing certain games (or certain other promotions), your actions there in are unimportant...that you're simply playing is all it cares about), or participating in steam events. And the only thing your steam level effects is the size of your fiends list...that's it.

    The badge crafting itself is actually more useful then any steam achievement, since it tends to give you special theme items associated with the game you created the badge for, which can then be either used or traded via the market for steam-cash to buy games or other cards with.

    And I have no idea what you just said. Is the friends list now limited in some way? I have less than 30 people on my friends list, and I don't foresee that going up tremendously in the near future. Do these cards actually do anything in-game? Do they add re-play value (discounting the fact that you might get a coupon which will allow you to buy DLC or other games, because not every game will have DLC)? You are awarded cards for just playing the game? Aren't you going to be doing that anyway? Do you really need an incentive to do that? And I have a whole list of other questions, too. The main question, however, is this: if all the achievement systems in every game never existed, would it take all the enjoyment out of playing a game?

    Apparently the Steam levels and EXP can allow coupons or special deals. I know of a few people who are actively buying and playing games that they wouldn't normally bother with, just so they can level up and get coupons for the games that they do want. Which is as ridiculous as it sounds, because the amount of money they are currently spending wouldn't equate to the savings they think they are going to make (they would be better off buying the game when it is on sale rather than buying 10 other games in the hope of getting a 50%-or 75%-off coupon on their desired game in the future). Oh, and people are going around begging for cards or telling me to vote on something so that I can give them my cards since I won't be using them.

    I don't understand any of this modern gaming... :(
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    The cards have nothing to do with the game itself. They just ultimately give fluff bonuses for the steam-client, like different steam skins or additional emoticons or such.

    I think a level 1 client can have like 50 friend slots or so...and it goes up from there.

    You simply earn so many by just playing the game, after which you become eligible to potentially receive booster packs which allow you to earn more, which can then be traded or sold on the market (it's an interesting system....I've actually bought 4 games purely through selling cards, skins, or emoticons, without spending any money on cards themselves).

    As long as the games you play frequently have badges/cards associated with them, you don't have to do anything special...you'll just periodically get messages of items being added to your inventory. the only games I've really bothered collecting cards for has been Don't Starve and M&B:Warband, since I play them often enough to earn frequent card drops. Other games I play less often, I just sell whatever cards I earn. The emoticons and stuff though are completely uninteresting to me and I always sell those. (you can sometimes get several dollars for them, though typically .50 is much more common).


    When you create or level up a badge, it gives a few fluff items to decorate your steam client with related to the game you made the badge of, as well as a RANDOM coupon for a game no one wants (99.9% of the time) that is only valid for a couple days and cannot be sold on the market (they can be traded however....though I've yet to receive anything worth a damn, so no one has been interested in trading).


    The steam-achievements themselves, do absolutely nothing, and have no barring at all on the card/badge system.





    yeah....I see no point in achievements either. They're entirely bragging rights rewards...nothing else. And even then, it's so easy to cheat the system, there's really no incentive to collect them.
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