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Get rid of spell writing failure.

What archaic rule is this?
Maybe under the beady glare of a die-hard dungeon master this could be enforced. But with quick save/quick load in a computer game I find this feature annoying.
I'm sure there are some who go along with this rule, but I'd bet my granny they're in the minority.
Low intelligence mages get penalised with a spells-per-level cap.

Also - believe this to be bugged. Even with 100% spell learning many spells still fail to write.

DaelricT2av
«134

Comments

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    you can lower the game difficulty to normal before memorising a spell if you want it to automatically succeed.

    TJ_HookerFlashburnQuartzLirik
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    It is a PNP legacy. I admit, I normally reload rather than loose a scroll, but I think its a good reminder that Intelligence matters. Even if the only penalty is more frequent reloads, its still enough to make a higher Intelligence desirable for a mage!

    Oxford_GuySCARY_WIZARD
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    If they removed this rule, then there's hardly any point in mages and bards putting any points into Int, there's not much even now...

    ajwzSCARY_WIZARDQuartz
  • LiggLigg Member Posts: 187

    If they removed this rule, then there's hardly any point in mages and bards putting any points into Int, there's not much even now...

    I agree with intelligence being a null ability. But spell writing failure isn't the best solution imo. It's a miserable ploy. Extra spells for high intelligence may be.

    @Jalily - as you say, there should be a separate option, that way it's a choice and not an issue.

    Lemernis
  • szbszb Member Posts: 220
    What I don't understand that why do clerics/druids gain extra spells from high wisdom, but mages/bards don't get anything from intelligence besides chance to learn spells.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    @szb It's because in general, mage spells are more powerful than priest spells.

    I do agree, though, that there would have been much better ways to reflect a high intelligence than what was implemented.

    To be honest, I think that there ought to be a separate Options menu just for Difficulty, rather than having it buried inside of Gameplay.

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited January 2013
    Priests also only have 7 levels of spells, while mages have 9. Overall, they get about the same total amount of spells per day by the end and only because the priests get bonus spells.


    I still say they need to implement the int requirement for casting. It's in the 2das already, they just have to enforce it.

    SCARY_WIZARDOxford_GuyQuartz
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited January 2013
    Ligg said:

    Low intelligence mages get penalised with a spells-per-level cap.

    Actually they don't. You can down a potion of Genius and then scribe as many spells into your book as you want. And they stay there even after the potion wears off.

    For me, since there are some people (like myself) that think it is valid rule, and some people (like yourself) that don't like it, I'd say leave it as it is. I'd be OK if someone put a check box in the config so that you could decide if you wanted it, but even that seems like a lot of coding for a really small gain. As you said, you can simply quick-save to get around it. If you are playing with a 17 or higher INT, your chance of failure is pretty small. so one reload is all you need to be inconvenienced with.

    Just my two cents.

    Originally in PnP Int affected the max spell level you could learn, I bet people would care about Int then, LOL!

    It works this way in the game as well, but as above, you can get around it with potion of Genius.

    SCARY_WIZARD
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    szb said:

    What I don't understand that why do clerics/druids gain extra spells from high wisdom, but mages/bards don't get anything from intelligence besides chance to learn spells.

    Its just a different mechanic. Priest spells are automatically learned and the cleric can cast any spells they're high enough level for (and of the correct spheres of influence in PNP).
    Wizard spells are generally more powerful, or at least more offensive. So the process of learning them is a little more complex.

    In PNP there was the additional issue that a cleric had to stay "right" with their deity, so it was a little more of a role playing challenge. So part of the trade off for the wizard's more difficult spell acquisition was that what they knew, they knew; and it wasn't determined by ethos or behavior. While a cleric could cast/learn any appropriate spell, but they always had to stay faithful to their religion.

    Lindeblom
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited January 2013
    Also, as a sorcerer proves, you don't actually need more then 5 spells per level to handle any situation in the Saga, which the lowest possible intelligence a mage can have allows 6 per level AND you can erase them, unlike a sorcerer (though that is actually not the way it works in PnP, and the no-erasing-spells was enforced until ToB came out).

    13 int gives a 55% learn chance, which is all you really need. As long as your chance to learn is swung in your favor, however small, that's the best you can hope for if you don't have 100%. So essentially, a mage only really needs 13 int (which also allows 9 known spells per spell level). On the other hand, if they decide to enforce int for casting limits.

    9: up to 4th
    10-11: 5th
    12-13: 6th
    14-15: 7th
    16-17: 8th
    18+: 9th

    Which I actually wouldn't mind, truth be told.

    As for whether it should or should not...I think it should. You already have the option to play on normal if you wanna wuss out and not play according to the PnP restrictions...otherwise suck it up, and play Core. The chance to fail is there in PnP, and should be here as well, and I would like to see MORE things like in PnP, and I'm the kind of guy who accepts the good with the bad for those kinds of arrangements.

    Oxford_GuyEudaemonium
  • leeho730leeho730 Member Posts: 285
    Doesn't INT already affect number of spells per level? I remember Neera getting frequent "max spells allowed" message when I tried to write the spell into spellbook... But I have noticed I hardly get spell write failure message, it seems to be 100%...

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,282
    Rules apart , I wouldn't trust a mage with 13 intelligence, addicted to potions of genius.

    hansolo
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    leeho730 said:

    Doesn't INT already affect number of spells per level? I remember Neera getting frequent "max spells allowed" message when I tried to write the spell into spellbook... But I have noticed I hardly get spell write failure message, it seems to be 100%...

    Yeah it affects the max number of spells you can have in your spellbook per level. But as mentioned above, it's farily easy to get around this by drinking a potion.

    Originally in PnP Int affected the max spell level you could learn, I bet people would care about Int then, LOL!

    It works this way in the game as well, but as above, you can get around it with potion of Genius.
    I'm almost positive that this wasn't implemented in any of the Infinity Engine game, except IWD2.

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited January 2013
    Well..in PnP a mage is also supposed to gain 1 spell of their choice (well, DM's choice, but they can let the player choose) per level-up to add to their spell book with no learning check required, up to their highest cast-able level (pg. 44 of the Handbook). Specialists MUST chose a spell from their school, if possible.

  • DinsdalePiranhaDinsdalePiranha Member Posts: 419
    there's an option for it in the tweakpack.

  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    I figured I'd be fine with my 19 int gnome - first spell I tried to write failed - now I'm back to circumventing it by dropping difficulty when scribing - especially with the limited number of scrolls for many spells.

    The_New_Romance
  • TheCoffeeGodTheCoffeeGod Member Posts: 618
    Pfft!
    What is it with whiny PC mages and the tiniest inconveniences for a super powerful class?
    Just be glad they didn't impliment REAL PnP rules for the game, otherwise you wouldn't be able to cast unless you actually had the components in your inventory.


    atcDavePhilhelmSCARY_WIZARDleeho730
  • NeuromancyNeuromancy Member Posts: 5
    edited January 2013
    Right CoffeeGod, or 1st Edition, where "spell writing" is "chance to know." If your character could ever learn a spell, it was checked far before he could ever locate a scroll to transcribe it. This would have been particularly wicked in BG, as this would have been checked during character generation, and you wouldn't know if you could learn a spell until you found the scroll later in the game and attempted to copy it into your spellbook.

    "Sweet, I found Fireball!"
    *click Write Magic*
    -This character is currently incapable of learning this spell.-
    ~Wah, wah, wahhh~

    SCARY_WIZARDQuartz
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,431

    Right CoffeeGod, or 1st Edition, where "spell writing" is "chance to know." If your character could ever learn a spell, it was checked far before he could ever locate a scroll to transcribe it. This would have been particularly wicked in BG, as this would have been checked during character generation, and you wouldn't know if you could learn a spell until you found the scroll later in the game and attempted to copy it into your spellbook.

    "Sweet, I found Fireball!"
    *click Write Magic*
    -This character is currently incapable of learning this spell.-
    ~Wah, wah, wahhh~

    Couldn't you re-check later on as you ganied experience, or was that implemented later or in a retroclone?

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    Ligg said:

    Low intelligence mages get penalised with a spells-per-level cap.

    Actually they don't. You can down a potion of Genius and then scribe as many spells into your book as you want. And they stay there even after the potion wears off.

    For me, since there are some people (like myself) that think it is valid rule, and some people (like yourself) that don't like it, I'd say leave it as it is. I'd be OK if someone put a check box in the config so that you could decide if you wanted it, but even that seems like a lot of coding for a really small gain. As you said, you can simply quick-save to get around it. If you are playing with a 17 or higher INT, your chance of failure is pretty small. so one reload is all you need to be inconvenienced with.

    Just my two cents.

    Originally in PnP Int affected the max spell level you could learn, I bet people would care about Int then, LOL!

    It works this way in the game as well, but as above, you can get around it with potion of Genius.
    Max spell level you can learn is *not* currently limited by Intelligence in BGEE (nor was it ever in BF1/BG2), Intelligence currently only affects chance to successfully scribe a spell from a scroll to your spell book, the max number of spells per level that you can have in your spellbook, and provides a bonus/malus to Lore. Also a character needs a minimum Int of 9 to be able to cast from a scroll (including non-mages using protection scrolls).

    TJ_Hooker
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    leeho730 said:

    Doesn't INT already affect number of spells per level? I remember Neera getting frequent "max spells allowed" message when I tried to write the spell into spellbook... But I have noticed I hardly get spell write failure message, it seems to be 100%...

    Yes, but max number of spells allowed per level in your spellbook is *not* the same as the max spell level that you can cast (which you would be unlikely to notice in BGEE, but would be a major factor for BG2EE). Personally I'd like to see this implemented, for Core Rules anyway, or possibly as a separate option.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • leeho730leeho730 Member Posts: 285

    Pfft!
    What is it with whiny PC mages and the tiniest inconveniences for a super powerful class?
    Just be glad they didn't impliment REAL PnP rules for the game, otherwise you wouldn't be able to cast unless you actually had the components in your inventory.


    Quoted for truth! Yeah, we're having it easy, casting identify spell doesn't cost 100gp (same as identifying at the shop), casting shape change spell doesn't cost 4,000 gp worth of crown, people don't age when spells such as wish, restoration, raise dead, resurrection, haste (recipient age one year if I remember correctly) are cast...

    But I agree with most people here. Intel seems to be dump stat for even mages (other than for use during Wish spell). I agree that the rule where the max level spell mages can learn is = intel -10 would be beneficial for roleplaying purpose, it feels awkward that even mages with intelligence of 10 can cast level 9 or even 10 spells (equivalent of person with average intellect completely understands and even build nuclear weapon).

    Oxford_Guy
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited January 2013
    Actually components are an optional rule, as is an int based cap for the number of spells you can know.

    The only rules that are always in effect unless a DM decides to house-rule it are, int-based minimum cast-able levels, int based chance to learn, and gaining a new spell per level.

    The only exception are spells that require a minimum gold value, in which case you just had to have the proper amount of gold on hand when you memorized the spell, which is consumed in the casting.

    If you're using the component rule, then you must track down and purchase an appropriate item, and then have it on hand when casting the spell. Though unless your DM is a huge dick, just having your component pouch on hand is enough for casting spells with trivial, no listed value components. Though if your pouch is stolen, you can't cast any spells until it's returned or you can acquire a new one...or track down the proper singular items to cast the spells. So...it can be useful to build some tension for an adventure if your party is captured, but if you take it too far and nitpick every single component it becomes a hassle.

    As for spell learning in 2nd edition, you are able to attempt the spell again, but it requires you gain at least 1 level before you can reattempt since you obviously didn't have knowledge enough for such an intricate spell at that time, and obviously, you'll need a new copy of the scroll.

    Enforcing the int min-castable level rules wouldn't touch BG1. 11+ int is high enough to cast 5th level spells. And even in BG2 it would only be a minor inconvenience since out of all the NPCs, only Edwin could learn 9th/10th level spells without items. The rest would cap out at 8th. Though it would actually give some benefit to using the +1 int ioun stone, or giving companions the int boost from the Machine of Lum. Imeon and Nalia could get 9th level casting with either, and Jan or Aerie could get 9th level with Lum and the Ioun stone.


    Restoration ages the caster and target 2 years, Wish ages the caster 5 years, haste (and potions of speed) ages the target by 1 year (but not improved haste, which is one of the benefits), Resurrection ages the caster 3 years and prevents all spell casting for 24 hours.

    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
    leeho730The_New_Romance
  • moopymoopy Member Posts: 938
    I think has ZanathKariashi pointed out, that chance to fail learning a spell would be even less annoying if you gained a new spell upon level up like you do in PnP.

    Oxford_Guy
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    Well for all the PnP advocates who think this is just whining - keep in mind that BG:EE does NOT have a live DM that can arrange for a player to have as many chances to obtain a particular spell for his spellbook as he deems is needed while BG:EE in some cases may be limited to a toss or two of the dice for the entire game for some spells.

    In other words direct comparison of PnP and BG:EE is almost always apples and oranges - both fruit but too different for a one to one direct comparison to have much if any merit except in the most general terms.

    aldain
  • aldainaldain Member Posts: 266
    Wanderon said:

    Well for all the PnP advocates who think this is just whining - keep in mind that BG:EE does NOT have a live DM that can arrange for a player to have as many chances to obtain a particular spell for his spellbook as he deems is needed while BG:EE in some cases may be limited to a toss or two of the dice for the entire game for some spells.

    In other words direct comparison of PnP and BG:EE is almost always apples and oranges - both fruit but too different for a one to one direct comparison to have much if any merit except in the most general terms.

    Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    While I generally don't endorse changes that make the game easier, the way scribing works currently leads to some pretty wonky behavior when you play Core No reload. Basically, my mage usually is stuck with L1 spells until he hits L4-5. Why? Because there aren't many L2 scrolls that drop, and even though he generally has 18 INT, you WILL almost certainly fail 2-3 scribes in a row. Potions are the only way out, but they are limited in number and quite expensive so early on. So I hoard scrolls until I have enough to justify spending 1000g on a couple potions.

    I quite like the suggestion of instituting INT-dependent max spell level along with 1 new known spell on levelup. It would make INT matter (not for BG1 but there's really not a lot to be done about that), and would lessen the effect of scribing failure without removing it completely.

  • RhymeRhyme Member Posts: 190
    I'm a big fan of adding a new known spell on levelup. It's one of several reasons I love sorcerors more than mages.

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