The only thing BG2 needs is an evil swashbuckler. Too many backstab immune enemies for assassin to be worthwhile and bounty hunter is made obsolete by hla traps.
As I've already said, Jan is enough for me, but having more NPC thieves can't hurt. I especially love the arguments some of you have in favor of an assassin.
But for me, the top priority would be to complete Yoshimo's redemption quest (isn't that a big spoiler for BG:EE-only people to have that as an option in the poll though?), although I don't know if the current contract would allow them to do it.
I actually really like Yoshimo, so I would be happy with a redemption/salvation quest (and I guess an Evil thief for you evil jerks). I just didn't vote it because I think it's impossible with the contract.
I hate to go for efficiency, but Swashbucklers are pretty much the best thief kit since it allows them to fight better and doesn't stop them being the lock pick and trap removal bots.
I hate to go for efficiency, but Swashbucklers are pretty much the best thief kit since it allows them to fight better and doesn't stop them being the lock pick and trap removal bots.
explain swashbucklers to me. at least the reason why people love them.
they're at best make-believe fighters, little better than pureclass clerics - they can specialize, but it only adds extra damage, not the extra half attack. they can dual wield, but don't get extra attacks like a fighter as they level up. they have quite alright thac0 and damage, but cannot wield the best weapons. they also have a buttload of skills, without having any need of them - by lvl 10, one can casually max all important skills, because they have very little use for stealth.
in return, they lose the most important, and entertaining skill of thieves - goddamn backstab. I can understand someone swooning over them who never used backstab, but then: use it. it's awesome. it kills those pesky little mages like no tomorrow, without they even getting a chance to put up protections. hell, it kills damn near EVERYTHING, and puts your prospective backstabber exactly where it wants to be (at least in case of FMT): right in the middle of enemy forces, so they come after you, not the other squishies in your party.
one popular combo with them is to dual at 10 to mage, which, at least for me, also makes no sense... if you want to a mage, become a proper mage - specialist, or sorcerer. you can't dual into either of them, and by dualclassing a swashy into a generalist mage, you're giving up at least 1 spell/level, all for things that make very little difference to a mage... also, the game basically throws Imoen after you to take care of your basic thieving needs. another combo is swashy ->fighter, which is not only just wrong, but also extremely disrespectful towards kensais...
in short: why? you want to fight with thievery thrown in? get a fighter/thief. or a kensai -> thief. they're both better fighters (extra attacks and all that jazz), and have access to the awesomeness that is backstab. you also want magic? go fighter/mage/thief, they're fucking awesome, can cover everything that a thief can (eventually), backstab in the middle of a crowd then flash the creepiest smile ever to the survivors, have protections very close to a fighter/mage, can roll with the best HLAs... they totally trivialize swashies.
seriously, I'm not trying to be a troll/smart-ass around here (they generally don't write goddamn novels like this comment ), but... what's the point of this whole kit? for me, they still look like the most broken (not as in OP, more like: in pieces) characters ever... or am I not seeing something?
I wanted to fight with thievery thrown in, but I don't like playing non-human races (and I don't really like multi-classing, either). I don't really like dual-classing, either, because I want to keep getting better.
HLA for thieves are unbelievable, too. Use Any Item? Yes, please.
Plus, if I'm not mistaken, when we're talking about BG 2, it takes more than 10 levels if you're going to keep all your thieving skills strong (even though I neglected stuff like pick pockets and set traps).
Well, the thing with Swashbuckler is that if you don't plan on sneaking around backstabbing everything, there is no reason not to go with a swashbuckler as you will not receive any penalties to the other thief skills. The only skills I end up getting on my thieves is Open Locks, Detect Traps and Detect Illusion, so if I get no penalties to a thief that does that and it gets other bonuses I have no reason not to take it.
I know many people, who have bad char control. They got nervous, have bad reaction, are slow or something like that I don't know... They have problems to hide and strike the enemies in the back then (while you have 5 more NPCs to control). Tough combo indeed :-)
I'd love to see Tiax as a joinable character in BG2. Tiax rules ALL. There will come a day when Tiax will "Point and Click"! And honestly, you could pick him up at the same point where Yoshimo "Leaves".
I'd also love to actually be able to have Montoron be redeemable and made to be a player character (with or without Xar).
@rdarken, @Kaltzor: aha! so that's the reason you like 'em so much still, even from a pure fighting viewpoint, fighter/thieves tend to whoop their asses... majorly.
btw, by level 10, you can max out open locks, find traps, and another skill (detect illusions or set traps?), and still have a few spare points left over to compensate for armor. also, stealth only has a 1% chance of failing if it's high enough (100 points for dark places, 150 for dimly lit, and 200 for bright daylight I believe correctly - those are averages, so (move silently+hide)/2.) it doesn't even wear off when you want it to sometimes... ("become visible already you bastard, I want to cast imp haste on you!")
@Bhaaldog: I'm not saying backstab everything, but having the option to do alone is more than worth it. ("hello mr. lich, how about I take away your cutesy 150 hps with a well aimed critical strike + backstab combo before your contingency kicks in, instead of everybody running around in circles while we try to remove/wait out your protections?")
I'd like to see Yoshimo last the game. He's quite an interesting character and Bounty Hunter is an interesting kit (relatively) so it seems like a bit of a waste. Montaron would also be cool. Otherwise I don't care that much...I'm a bit underwhelmed with thieves.
@DinsdalePiranha I don't like swashbucklers mechanically, but I gotta admit they're one of the most flavorful classes from a thematic viewpoint. A lot of potential for fun there.
@Bhaaldog: I'm not saying backstab everything, but having the option to do alone is more than worth it. ("hello mr. lich, how about I take away your cutesy 150 hps with a well aimed critical strike + backstab combo before your contingency kicks in, instead of everybody running around in circles while we try to remove/wait out your protections?")
F/T may be the better class, but swashy is plenty powerful and can handle anything the game can throw at it (including Ascension/Tactics/whatever) so the extra power of the F/T is hardly needed. The thing is, a pirate npc would be so much cooler than a generic F/T.
Also I completely disagree with you that backstab is a thief's most important skill. The truly dangerous foes are completely immune. Liches are a simple matter of mace of disruption ohko.
@DinsdalePiranha I don't like swashbucklers mechanically, but I gotta admit they're one of the most flavorful classes from a thematic viewpoint. A lot of potential for fun there.
I don't like Swashbucklers because I see in my head a cross between Captain Jack Sparrow and Erol Flynn. And then I just can't play them.
@Jaxsbudgie You really don't think that 14 Con = going to get a Con boost in BGII? Think about it, all of the BG1 NPCs got stat buffs when they hit BGII, sans Imoen because she has always contradicted and ruined everything, including game balance. I'll bet you anything Rasaad will be boosted to 16 Con, Neera 15, Dorn a 15 or 16 as well.
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But for me, the top priority would be to complete Yoshimo's redemption quest (isn't that a big spoiler for BG:EE-only people to have that as an option in the poll though?), although I don't know if the current contract would allow them to do it.
they're at best make-believe fighters, little better than pureclass clerics - they can specialize, but it only adds extra damage, not the extra half attack. they can dual wield, but don't get extra attacks like a fighter as they level up. they have quite alright thac0 and damage, but cannot wield the best weapons. they also have a buttload of skills, without having any need of them - by lvl 10, one can casually max all important skills, because they have very little use for stealth.
in return, they lose the most important, and entertaining skill of thieves - goddamn backstab. I can understand someone swooning over them who never used backstab, but then: use it. it's awesome. it kills those pesky little mages like no tomorrow, without they even getting a chance to put up protections. hell, it kills damn near EVERYTHING, and puts your prospective backstabber exactly where it wants to be (at least in case of FMT): right in the middle of enemy forces, so they come after you, not the other squishies in your party.
one popular combo with them is to dual at 10 to mage, which, at least for me, also makes no sense... if you want to a mage, become a proper mage - specialist, or sorcerer. you can't dual into either of them, and by dualclassing a swashy into a generalist mage, you're giving up at least 1 spell/level, all for things that make very little difference to a mage... also, the game basically throws Imoen after you to take care of your basic thieving needs. another combo is swashy ->fighter, which is not only just wrong, but also extremely disrespectful towards kensais...
in short: why? you want to fight with thievery thrown in? get a fighter/thief. or a kensai -> thief. they're both better fighters (extra attacks and all that jazz), and have access to the awesomeness that is backstab. you also want magic? go fighter/mage/thief, they're fucking awesome, can cover everything that a thief can (eventually), backstab in the middle of a crowd then flash the creepiest smile ever to the survivors, have protections very close to a fighter/mage, can roll with the best HLAs... they totally trivialize swashies.
seriously, I'm not trying to be a troll/smart-ass around here (they generally don't write goddamn novels like this comment
I wanted to fight with thievery thrown in, but I don't like playing non-human races (and I don't really like multi-classing, either). I don't really like dual-classing, either, because I want to keep getting better.
HLA for thieves are unbelievable, too. Use Any Item? Yes, please.
Plus, if I'm not mistaken, when we're talking about BG 2, it takes more than 10 levels if you're going to keep all your thieving skills strong (even though I neglected stuff like pick pockets and set traps).
They have problems to hide and strike the enemies in the back then (while you have 5 more NPCs to control). Tough combo indeed :-)
I'd also love to actually be able to have Montoron be redeemable and made to be a player character (with or without Xar).
btw, by level 10, you can max out open locks, find traps, and another skill (detect illusions or set traps?), and still have a few spare points left over to compensate for armor. also, stealth only has a 1% chance of failing if it's high enough (100 points for dark places, 150 for dimly lit, and 200 for bright daylight I believe correctly - those are averages, so (move silently+hide)/2.) it doesn't even wear off when you want it to sometimes... ("become visible already you bastard, I want to cast imp haste on you!")
@Bhaaldog: I'm not saying backstab everything, but having the option to do alone is more than worth it.
("hello mr. lich, how about I take away your cutesy 150 hps with a well aimed critical strike + backstab combo before your contingency kicks in, instead of everybody running around in circles while we try to remove/wait out your protections?")
I don't like swashbucklers mechanically, but I gotta admit they're one of the most flavorful classes from a thematic viewpoint. A lot of potential for fun there.
Also I completely disagree with you that backstab is a thief's most important skill. The truly dangerous foes are completely immune. Liches are a simple matter of mace of disruption ohko.
I'm standing by my fighter/assassin. How cool does that sound?