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Re-evaluate resting.

lordkimlordkim Member Posts: 1,063
Remember there were a giant discussion on a forum ( beamdogs or reedit) , on how to restore HP after battle.
And how easy it actually was. Cant seem to find it, then i would post it here.
Mentions on , just to rest strange places and then you have restored your Hp´s.
Mentions why it should be harder to restore them.
Post edited by lordkim on
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Comments

  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    Here's the thread - http://www.reddit.com/r/FriendsOfBaldursGate/comments/r432v/requestnerf_rest/

    The topic was originally brought up by HeroicSpur on the beamdog forums. There were mixed views on the concept. It had 5 up votes and 4 down votes so it's a good topic of conversation.

    For: Rest trivialises adventures and leaves the party little incentive to manage their spells effectively. It also doesn't make much sense that you should be able to rest in the middle of an evil villains lair. Surely you'd be almost certainly murdered in your sleep.

    Against: There is a line between inconvenience and making something fun. I feel that this would simply become annoying. Besides I prefer having all my spells for boss fights since it makes them more tactical and it encourages experimentation of strategy. By all means have some encounters like Sendai and Ammelysan that require careful spell management, but don't make it mandatory across the board.
  • lordkimlordkim Member Posts: 1,063
    edited June 2012
    Thx dude :O)

    ??Perhabs have one guy looking over the rest of the party while sleeping.??
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    I think there should be improved healing rates for sleeping in Inns, like best healing in the Royal or Mechant rooms.
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    @Kore the discussion got into a lot more detail over on the Beamdog forums. I think the fatigue of arging it may have reduced the energy in the reddit. We needed to rest.
  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    I don't want them to change rest at all. I already find it very difficult to rest without being attacked. If the pros don't want to rest, then don't rest. No need to ruin it for less experienced players.
  • lansounetlansounet Member Posts: 1,182
    @Boaster
    That's already in game afaik, depending on CON of each party member and remaining healing spells ("Cast healing spells on resting" option). Shortest rest is still 8 hours no matter how much hp you need to heal.
  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    @Kore the discussion got into a lot more detail over on the Beamdog forums. I think the fatigue of arging it may have reduced the energy in the reddit. We needed to rest.
    Yeah, my summary perhaps didn't do that debate justice :) We should try to find the link to beamdog too.
  • AkerhonAkerhon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 614
    I think there should be improved healing rates for sleeping in Inns, like best healing in the Royal or Mechant rooms.
    I think the same!
    Restore HP after battle its no AD&D imho
  • nulspacenulspace Member Posts: 100
    @Aosaw - I like the thinking on this very much.
  • ZakerosZakeros Member Posts: 75
    I also think taverns should have some "buffs" which will last after resting, simply because - based on me - even if my character was rich, I usually took the peasant room or even go sleep outside. I like roleplaying, but this little matter always had got me economic ;)
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    edited August 2012
    Just because I don't like that word.

    Anyway, there was a long discussion on the beamdog thread about this and it's doubtlessly been discussed on reddit as well.

    I am 100% in agreement that something should be done: but what should be done is an open question. It needn't be anything major, it could be a few tweaks.

    I'll list some of the key points raised on the beamdog thread:

    The problem

    I have found the best moments in BG arise where I have had to use every last trick in the book, where my wizard has 3 useless spells left, my party is badly injured and I'm almost out of ammo. The problem is that resting is pretty much a cure-all, if you can succesfully rest you instantly get all your hitpoints back, all your spells, and you're ready to go again.

    This has a number of ramifications:
    a. It means to make the game challenging each enemy encounter/group has to be able to match or exceed the party in power. There is no element of getting worn down and makes weaker enemies a push-over.
    b. It means when you have a large spellbook, you end up using the same few spells over and over, because you can just rest and get them back straight away.
    c. It means there's no punishment for doing badly in a fight (which you win).
    d. Resting at an inn is absolutely pointless, apart from roleplay value.

    caruga said:

    One laughably cheesy abuse was fighting Sendai with a solo playthrough--I was able to squeeze myself into a corner of the arena where she couldn't see me, and rest until healed! At least I think it was Sendai... I just know I did it on more than 1 occasion. I think I did a similar thing with the twisted rune battle.

    (And I'll interject now: it also shatters immersion when you emerge from Irenicus' dungeon with 200+ days on your game clock already thanks to 'rest until healed'). I propose that it roll a die every 4 hours of gametime for interruption; instead of rolls just once regardless of how long the resting takes.
    caruga said:

    Another two abuses that has come back to me, but they're both in BG2:

    1. you can rest and steal from the amnish guards that wake you in Athkatla repeatedly and they'll walk off even if made hostile. Easy loot-farming. The aggression should interrupt their script and make them attack instead,

    Suggested solutions


    a. Possibly introduce the concept of 'supplies'. Supplies cost money, and you use one batch of them everytime you rest. If you have a ranger in your group you don't need them (making rangers more worthwhile). The problem with this is that it adds a tedious element of having to go back and get more. The advantage is that it discourages resting 5x in a row in a dungeon while you tweak your spellbook. It also encourages rationing, so players will try to get further with what they have before resting. If you run out of supplies, resting is less effective and only restores a few spells.
    I appreciate this would be a massive shift and is probably unrealistic.

    b. Reduce the number of areas in which you can rest. This again encourages going further on what resources you have, but again is tedious in that players will just end up leaving, resting, and coming back.

    c. Make resting more dangerous, if you get attacked in your sleep you should fight at a penalty.

    I appreciate those aren't the greatest suggestions, but equally the power of resting I think, is too great.

    Manveru said:

    I think supplies wouldn't be such a good idea, but reducing the number of areas you can rest it would I think. And I would like to add the possibility of not able to rest within x hours after the last rest (e.g. 8 hours) unless you're in an inn. This will force the party to go back to an inn and 'pretend' they sit out the day there and lick their wounds before going back on trail.

    caruga said:

    Agreed totally. In the BG2 engine especially, where you could enable 'rest until healed', it was quite cheap. It should be able to get quite brutal and perhaps force you to reload an earlier save on occasion due to getting into an unwinnable fix, perhaps depending on difficulty settings (would go well with my aforementioned idea of a highly configurable advanced difficulty options menu). I also never found it necessary to go heal at a pub in BG2; sleeping on the streets until a guard doesn't disturb me, clicking over and over hitting ESC really fast, took less time. Perhaps such a thing could be fixed at the level of interface rather than gameplay, maybe forcing you to watch the resting movie (just as one example)?

    In regard to [resting near monsters] I think the whole LOS and AI needs to be reworked for NPC's. They should continue pursuing you, and if you manage to put enough distance between you and them and then rest, they should be able to wake you up again when they catch up.

    Another interjection: perhaps do something with requireing 'watches' to avoid ambush where you are caught at a disadvantage in combat. Makes solo play more difficult.

    I may not have covered anything, visit the thread if you're curious.
    Post edited by caruga on
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    edited August 2012
    Sorry but the formatting for the above post is totally screwed up (quotations are nesting for some reason even though I'm terminating them, and not showing the quoter name), but I swear it all looks correct to me. Might be a forum bug again. I'll try fiddle with it later.

    Update: 01/Aug/12: Finally fixed it, LOL.

    Post edited by caruga on
  • RazorRazor Member Posts: 436
    edited June 2012
    Completly agree that something must be done. I don't say that the spells and the health shouldnt be restored after resting. I think they should.
    What I disagree with is how often and easily you can rest. If one player is using rest as a "minor heal spell" then I think there should be some kind of penalty/more enemies... or any other better thing you can think of. I do like all your a. b. c. suggestions, it is wierd how hours just go by, months resting and nothing changes or does it?
    Post edited by Razor on
  • wbouvywbouvy Member Posts: 33
    @caruga Option c just encourages saving before resting.

    Why not simplify option a by saying that resting gets less effective in an area / group of areas the more often you do it, and this is reset when you leave the area / group of areas.
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    edited June 2012
    @caruga Option c just encourages saving before resting.

    Why not simplify option a by saying that resting gets less effective in an area / group of areas the more often you do it, and this is reset when you leave the area / group of areas.
    Those options listed with letters are by heroicspur but the stupid formatting didn't show that even though I inserted his name in the quotation. So I'll let him defend his own points. :) For now I recommend clicking the link to the beamdog forum until I fix the formatting (if I can); it takes you to the page where the conversation started.
  • WinthalWinthal Member Posts: 366
    My version of "fixing" rest: Increase the odds of being ambushed (greatly dependent on what area you are in), and have all monsters interrupting you in this way give zero xp to prevent rest-farming. This would work even better if the player could not use quick saves before each rest attempt, I suggest implementing fixed save spots instead of the current save/reload anywhere system.
  • RazorRazor Member Posts: 436
    edited June 2012
    @Winthal No! take anything away but please don't take quick saves... Let's see resting outside inns should recover a little less health for the same amount of time. For each hour of extra rest time (rest until healed) the greater the risk of a complicated encounter, since the risk is great even with the quick load the chances are (with extra hours) the encounter will happen again.
  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Member Posts: 950
    I agree, when in a 'hostile' area the incidence of an encounter could be drastically increased if attempting to rest. Could be something like 50% chance of encounter. Then, after each attempt at resting, the hostile encounters would become more powerful. Of course, balancing issues could be tough here, one could become stranded in the bottom of a mine or tower with no supplies, a dead party, and then no viable way to escape. Perhaps an option such as this could be put into IRONMAN mode? ;)
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    My version of "fixing" rest: Increase the odds of being ambushed (greatly dependent on what area you are in), and have all monsters interrupting you in this way give zero xp to prevent rest-farming.
    I actually agree with this part of what you said. Well, a scaling option is equally appealing to me, I'm not sure which I prefer.
  • nulspacenulspace Member Posts: 100
    edited June 2012
    A lot of this has been discussed in a separate thread:

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/1727/#Comment_1727

    (although it was incorrectly posted in the "general" forum instead of "feature requests") - @Coriander, i summon thee!
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Yeah, probably better for any extra ideas to be posted in the other thread too if Caruga doesn't mind moving his stuff over there.
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    Just linking this duplicate thread which also covers some of the issues of resting. I just want to make sure all the points are covered since there are a million-and-one ways to alter resting, and there are already several solutions suggested on there that I don't see on this thread. Rather than repeat them here I suggest heading over there and reading them (just keep in mind I never got to fix the formatting in the 1st post).
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @caruga
    It probably would be better if you just transferred your points to here.

    I'm not sure how long closed discussions last here.
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    Or they could have just left the thread open, since this thread title clearly proposes an idea called "restore HP after resting". That doesn't say to me "Rebalance resting" nor to anyone else who sees it; someone else separately brought up the 'nerf rest' reddit thread after the OP.

    Well, w/e. I'm sure the mods know how to merge threads as well as close them.
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    edited June 2012
    Rest abuse and save scumming should be left up to the player. Nothing forces you to refresh your spells and HPs after every battle.
    Comments like this are arrogant in the utmost. They assume that everyone shares their approach to gaming, that, like they, a structureless game where difficulty should be solely player-managed is the ideal. When the reality is: if you have no limitations and no structure, what you have is a toy, and not a game.

    I want the game to force me. I want to not hold back. What is so hard to understand about this? If I'm playing a challenge game on a repeated playthrough, it's different, but on the first playthrough, without any hindsight, how can I even know how to not 'abuse something'?

    What even is 'rest abuse'? How is it different from resting before and after battle? Is there some distinct line between abusing the feature and using it, that even a new-time player can observe?

    If the very fact of resting is itself 'abuse' then the feature is broken. If it is too hard to draw an obvious line between abusing and using a feature--then the feature is broken, if only for players such as myself.

    All your argument amounts to is 'devs shouldn't manage the difficulty'. As I already said, we wouldn't have a game if they did this, we would have a toy.

    Or, your argument is: I want to abuse loopholes in the gameplay, and if there aren't any loopholes I want you to put them in.

    Otherwise, you're like me, where you want to take every advantage but don't want the game (and the implicit dungeon master--the game designers) to ALLOW you to cheapen anything.

    You have to be clear on your principles. State them clearly, rather than brush us all off with a snotty flippant two-sentence remark that efforts to balance the game are wasted because you personally have no interest in them.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    edited June 2012
    @Caruga

    To me the problem with removing rest "abuse" is that sometimes it really feels like the game was designed for you to save/rest before a big encounter. Removing this possibility entirely might frustrate some players (hell it would probably frustrate me).

    But, like with many suggestions here, making them optional would be fine. Perhaps resting limitations could even be integrated in the difficulty slider.
  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    I would like if the game made it very difficult to sleep outside of specific areas such as taverns and perhaps a few outdoor campsites already present in the game (where there is already a fire burning). A much higher chance of enemies attacking you and lowered/removed XP for defeating them seems like a reasonable way to accomplish this. I would prefer this feature as optional as I would actually like for you to ONLY be allowed to rest in taverns as an option. I previously made a comment about this in a difficulty discussion, but if it wasn't put in as a difficulty option then I would like resting to be changed to be harder outside of designated locations.
  • NWN_babaYagaNWN_babaYaga Member Posts: 732
    edited June 2012
    Its just realistic to rest/ sleep everywhere out in the wilderness or a in dungeon/ cave one time a day. But I like the idea to increase the chance of an encounter depending on the area and time of day. That could be integrated into the games difficulty setting very well.
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